The GM's Court

[iKrolm]

[quote name='Executive Minister' timestamp='1348097032' post='3031988']
Just for a little bit of clarification down the line.

We don't have saved stats, so why the hell was Mara not allowed to buy up more IG nukes to increase her nuclear stockpile ic? No saved stats goes both ways, either when your down and out or rebuilding-unless this is a byproduct of that silly preplan rule.
[/quote]

The rule that CNRP == exactly IG applies to nukes and navy because these cannot be bought to maximum IG levels instantly. I don't know if there's a precedent for start of war versus levels at the present time in a war, but using IG at the present time in a war would seem to promote delaying.

[Centurius]

[quote name='Executive Minister' timestamp='1348097032' post='3031988']
Just for a little bit of clarification down the line.

We don't have saved stats, so why the hell was Mara not allowed to buy up more IG nukes to increase her nuclear stockpile ic? No saved stats goes both ways, either when your down and out or rebuilding-unless this is a byproduct of that silly preplan rule.
[/quote]

While otherwise you might have had a point part of the deal that regulated the war was that she used the stats prior to the start of the war. At the time when she was still fighting this gave her an edge, however when the war ended it backfired. So for this war there was a strict stat lock.

[Kankou]

Technically that was only for troop numbers, but I can see where you're coming from.

[Imperator Azenquor]

Well, just in case it is ruled that Mara has nukes remaining:

[IMG]http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l358/ImperatorAzenquor/LeSpyRoll1_zpse426e794.png[/IMG]
2 Nuke destroy rolls, s'il-vous-plaît

If she does not have any nukes remaining could the rolls instead count for locating key storage and production locations for her Biological and Chemical weapons.

[Triyun]

[quote name='Isaac MatthewII' timestamp='1348097114' post='3031989']
To be fair, Maras nation sucks really bad compared to Cent and Triyuns.
[/quote]
Perhaps it would've been wise then for her not to strut and instead pursue friendly policies then. The rules aren't their to make up for a deficit caused by strategic stupidity.

I also agree with iKrolm on what he said.

Edited September 20, 2012 by Triyun

[Executive Minister]

Its never wise to strut, Triyun.

[Triyun]

Oh one other thing I forgot to mention. Because I destroyed so many satellites, especially those navigation satellites, Mara pretty much [b]can't[/b] actually target me with 2000 missiles. You'd need to manually program those with an IGS which would take months if not years to do target selection on me with my destruction of that operational capability. Unless this is a shotgun approach. I also hit the intelligence and defense ministries pretty hard, so you'd have to do target selection from a presumably very flawed data set, and you can get new data cause I killed the ISR too. All of this may sound !@#$%*, but there is a reason I picked my targets as I did. Every kill has a purpose in destroying the ability to counter. If GMs or Mara wants a conversation in depth about this I'm available for PM or query on it.

Also and this sounds silly, but with nukes its a legit issue. Can she even launch strategic nukes without a functioning government? Assuming her government is a strong central one with a high degree of control over her military, she'd likely have safeguards built into the arsenal against a rogue field commander launching the nukes. I knocked out her space station and her leader is somewhere on the moon. I destroyed her strategic communications satellites which would be needed even if her leader was conscious to send strategic messages from space (the reason these satellites versus others are used is they're both extremely hard to intercept and also highly encrypted, so they would prevent someone from say synthesizing her voice and ordering a nuke launch under ordinary circumstances). Assuming her nation's professional military is on par with the Western Nuclear Powers, her capability to order a launch should be questioned.

Also two more nuke rolls:

[img]http://imageshack.us/a/img688/2796/nukerolls.png[/img]

Edited September 20, 2012 by Triyun

[KaiserMelech Mikhail]

[quote name='Imperator Azenquor' timestamp='1348100641' post='3032008']
[IMG]http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l358/ImperatorAzenquor/LeSpyRoll1_zpse426e794.png[/IMG]
2 Nuke destroy rolls, s'il-vous-plaît
[/quote]
1-70 win
71-100 loss

Roll 1= 21
Roll 2= 66

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1348151788' post='3032267']
Also two more nuke rolls:

[img]http://imageshack.us/a/img688/2796/nukerolls.png[/img]
[/quote]
1-90 win
91-100 loss

Roll 1: 32
Roll 2: 99

[Mara Lithaen]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1348151788' post='3032267']
Also and this sounds silly, but with nukes its a legit issue. Can she even launch strategic nukes without a functioning government? Assuming her government is a strong central one with a high degree of control over her military, she'd likely have safeguards built into the arsenal against a rogue field commander launching the nukes. I knocked out her space station and her leader is somewhere on the moon. I destroyed her strategic communications satellites which would be needed even if her leader was conscious to send strategic messages from space (the reason these satellites versus others are used is they're both extremely hard to intercept and also highly encrypted, so they would prevent someone from say synthesizing her voice and ordering a nuke launch under ordinary circumstances). Assuming her nation's professional military is on par with the Western Nuclear Powers, her capability to order a launch should be questioned.

Also two more nuke rolls:

[img]http://imageshack.us/a/img688/2796/nukerolls.png[/img]
[/quote]

Nuclear launch authority is not relegated to the Empress- it is relegated to the Lord/Lady General of the Army. The standing orders of the Imperial military are: if the Imperium looks to be overrun, to flush their silos at pre-selected targets. Silo commanders generally have to receive orders to launch, but they are allowed to exercise their own judgement. With the beatdown you have decided to place on me, their own judgement ruled that way.

Also, given that you are on a map, the missiles already have you in their IGS. Your distance is known. It is calculated by the launcher and fed to the missiles, and they are aimed for their targets. They reach their preprogrammed destination and elevation and explode.

[Isaac MatthewII]

We all know they will lolrebuild in a few weeks anyhow.

[Sarah Tintagyl]

[quote name='Isaac MatthewII' timestamp='1348189216' post='3032512']
We all know they will lolrebuild in a few weeks anyhow.
[/quote]

Please take this out of the GM court.

[Isaac MatthewII]

[quote name='Sarah Tintagyl' timestamp='1348190681' post='3032525']
Please take this out of the GM court.
[/quote]
Since you asked all nice like.

[Triyun]

[quote name='Mara Lithaen' timestamp='1348187744' post='3032499']
Nuclear launch authority is not relegated to the Empress- it is relegated to the Lord/Lady General of the Army. The standing orders of the Imperial military are: if the Imperium looks to be overrun, to flush their silos at pre-selected targets. Silo commanders generally have to receive orders to launch, but they are allowed to exercise their own judgement. With the beatdown you have decided to place on me, their own judgement ruled that way.

Also, given that you are on a map, the missiles already have you in their IGS. Your distance is known. It is calculated by the launcher and fed to the missiles, and they are aimed for their targets. They reach their preprogrammed destination and elevation and explode.
[/quote]

Any semi-serious missile/air power analyst knows that there is a distinct difference between hitting a general area of a city and hitting a military target. If you aren't a semi-serious student of the air power and missile schools fine, but then don't argue with those who know what they are talking about when it comes to guidance. What I've been conducting on you is an operational attack designed to destroy your capability to respond, you let it hang out there for three moves, where I just did damage after damage and now I've neutered your ability to shoot back at me. This is a lesson to respond to others instead of !@#$%*. But you let me do the damage by not responding and now you're suffering the consequences of letting someone who does know how missile targeting work, auto kill your missile targeting.

If your going to be firing to engage civilian areas and terrorize them London Blitz style then absolutely you can use the IGS to engage a target. And to do that you need to take the time to do all the calculations to target the missiles and hit targets within accuracies of 1 kilometer or so. So if your goal is to blow up a couple of warehouses and residential buildings good on you you've accomplished that with a few weeks of planning and prepositioning missiles. And in the pre-GPS era that was great Hitler's V-1s and V-2s managed to hit some irrelevant buildings, Saddam managed to do a whole of 0 damage to Israel. Of course the serious short range ballistic missiles and cruise missiles of the world could do some damage, but of course back then they were armed with nuclear warheads. As they saying goes: close counts in craps and horse shoes. Again, good on you. Unfortunately the precision targeting to takes to actually engage military bases is a completely different can of worms which is what you're doing here. The position of [i]actual tactical targets[/i] in Beihai and the North Slope, military targets is a completely different story. Thats not open source, nor even if it would be as again a serious analyst would know, would you be able to get much of a military effect spamming IGS guided missiles. If thats your argument about what I'll take fine... I don't really care cause I'll take negiligble damage, but fine. Oh and by the way, aside from WMD, for which you're PGS you lack the tech for your air bursts are pretty useless. (btw even though PGS does count, air burst is pretty ineffectual there compared to other WMD)

Oh and by the way if you're keeping them in silos thats also a fixed target and considering we've been hitting the silos that makes the argument further for their destruction.

[Imperator Azenquor]

As I am reasonably convinced that the seven nuclear weapons that Mara launched towards Triyun's capital will either cross directly over or significantly close to my territory, I'd like to request SDI rolls.

[Mara Lithaen]

They will not cross your territory, which is the only way you're allowed SDI rolls barring some pre-RPed anti-ICBM capability on your fleets.

[Kankou]

Any words of wisdom from the GM team concerning the ongoing preplanning issue?

[Sarah Tintagyl]

Glad that you could ask Kankou.

So, I've given the issues, which I could siphon out of the arguments in the past week, some thought and have come to two points. One,there isn't anything I as a GM can do to actually solve the pre-planning problem because I cannot implement any new rules. So the best thing I can do is give the community what I would do in this situation as a way to solve forthcoming wars.

Right now the community has come to a crossroad in the fact that there are more people who UNOFFICIALLY are opposed to preplanning, I say unofficially because the votes that were necessary to destroy the rule came in after the deadline, thus my immediate thoughts are that in another week or two, there will be yet another poll and preplanning will likely die. Then, my prediction are the people who are most adamantly for preplanning, i.e. Kankou, Issac, and PD, will create another poll and this will go on endlessly. Because, lets be honest, if I came out and said, Death to Preplanning, or It is a necessary rule, people would already be yelling.

We have gotten along (sort of) as a community for a few years now without having to argue if wars should be planned or not. The problem back then, was much as it is now, when wars are declared people begin to argue about how that war should be fought and often times, players would completely ignore each other and just throw wall of texts against each other of amazing attacks countered by amazing defenses. Pre-planning was thus created to get players to talk and figure out how to make the war flow. Now, I am not going to say that every pre-planning session has gone terribly, people were pre-planning prior to the rule and will continue to do so no matter what the future holds.

Preplanning needs to be defined that it is only a way to get people to talk about the war, it should not be a line up of allies, of military forces, of strategies. It is not a guarantee of a fair war. It is a way for people to speak about how the war might proceed and foster story and dialogue growth, NOT the creation of special arrangements so that a war is actually five mirco-wars, all with different rules and exemptions. Pre-planning only works when people are willing to speak to each other and it should be saved between the people of the actual wars. I would say, bringing in 'mediators' who are not GMs would be a bad idea, but again, I do not have the power to enforce otherwise, however, we are elected for that reason, please ask us to help.

Players need to remember, wars are not going to be fair and pre-planning should not be a way to make them fair. However, I would say to both sides of large and small players, you need to try to be kind to each other, large players give the smaller guys a chance to breath and write and maybe even propel as to foster player growth. However, realistically, giants have destroyed smaller states throughout history and if you interact in the world, there is the chance you will anger on of the giants. That is a part of history and a part of this game. I give Eva a lot of credit because while she suffered those consequences with Athens, she did continue with her story for several months. There is no way to solve pre-planning, because there is no real problem with pre-planning, the problem is that people have issues with other people.

I would hate to see the RP divided between 'peace states' and 'war states' because honestly it will destroy the RP completely. I'd recommend people trying to act a little more understanding and that goes for myself.

I hope that the explanation helps, but as to an addition to the rule, I really don't know what else could be proposed to keep people from arguing.

[Kankou]

What bothers me is that there is a group of people who are unwilling to even discuss reforming the current system and call out for abolishment without compromise. If people are so stubborn as to not even try to talk things out and use only one or two examples to push forth an agenda when there are about as many counterexamples, we have the same kind of blind followings as we see in certain circles of modern American politics. The lack of willingness to discuss truly is a fundamental problem of CNRP at this moment.

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1348535748' post='3033781']
What bothers me is that there is a group of people who are unwilling to even discuss reforming the current system and call out for abolishment without compromise. If people are so stubborn as to not even try to talk things out and use only one or two examples to push forth an agenda when there are about as many counterexamples, we have the same kind of blind followings as we see in certain circles of modern American politics. The lack of willingness to discuss truly is a fundamental problem of CNRP at this moment.
[/quote]

Both groups don't want to compromise and both groups say their argument using the same style of rhetoric.

In other words: Get off your !@#$@#$ high horse.

[Kankou]

I'm pretty sure that ignoring the examples laid out in the Reform thread and just screaming "ABOLISH IT" is not the same as actually putting forth suggestions.

[Centurius]

But my dear lady, our suggestion is to get rid of the unneeded regulation. Your own proposals simply are deficient.

[Kankou]

But my dear gentlemen, none of your arguments actually touched upon why preplanning in itself is deficient, except using arguments which havbe a perfectly logical way of solving without having to abolish the system. Allow us to move the discussion to the other thread.

[Isaac MatthewII]

I hate being that guy but this thread isn't for arguments, its the GMs court. This should probably be taken to an unofficial thread.

[iKrolm]

I petition the GMs to require all posts within this court begin with "My Dear Gentleman," or "My Dear Lady". All of our conversations would seem so much more civilized, no?

[Evangeline Anovilis]

[quote name='iKrolm' timestamp='1348539012' post='3033807']
I petition the GMs to require all posts within this court begin with "My Dear Gentleman," or "My Dear Lady". All of our conversations would seem so much more civilized, no?
[/quote]
Introduce it for the whole OOC section.