The Overtime Accords

[Gobb]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1304598290' post='2706789']
Nevertheless, MK members keep using NPO posts as an excuse to the preemptive attack.
[/quote]
The two quotes have absolutely nothing to do with each other. We didn't attack NPO because their members were vocally supporting our friends' enemies, but it did strengthen the image that they were against us.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1304605436' post='2706835']
Attacked for literally no reason: check
Reps pursued from people who aided him: check
Lack of functioning alliance command structure: check
Sanctioned by every major color except red: check

He was a rogue then, and he's still a rogue now. People should not be giving him a shred of legitimacy.
[/quote]
Were you outlining the situation faced by GOONS raid targets pre-reforms, or Kerberos Nexus? It sounded like GOONS until you got to the reps part, so it threw me off.

[Solaris]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1304605907' post='2706841']
Were you outlining the situation faced by GOONS raid targets pre-reforms, or Kerberos Nexus? It sounded like GOONS until you got to the reps part, so it threw me off.
[/quote]
I'd love to hear what makes you think Methrage was not a rogue, exactly.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Solaris' timestamp='1304606144' post='2706843']
I'd love to hear what makes you think Methrage was not a rogue, exactly.
[/quote]
Knock yourself out http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?app=blog&blogid=93&showentry=2140 and http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=92577&view=findpost&p=2464015

Edited May 5, 2011 by Schattenmann

[Lord Velox]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1304605907' post='2706841']
Were you outlining the situation faced by GOONS raid targets pre-reforms, or Kerberos Nexus? It sounded like GOONS until you got to the reps part, so it threw me off.
[/quote]
You're just biased against GOONS don't try to legitimize it with flawed logic.
Fact is you're a hypocrite.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Lord Velox

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Lord Velox' timestamp='1304606472' post='2706845']
You're just biased against GOONS don't try to legitimize it with flawed logic.
Fact is you're a hypocrite.
[/quote]
If GOONS can show me a rogue, we will sanction it. As to claims of bias, if GOONS is not aiding a nation that is nuke roguing me for a second time when they ask me to sanction someone, then GOONS won't have any reason to suspect bias. And if GOONS is not deliberately trying to bait NPO into war by mass-raiding Red when they ask NPO for a sanction, then they won't have any reason to suspect bias. But neither NPO nor I can control either of those things, eh?

Edited May 5, 2011 by Schattenmann

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1304581147' post='2706725']
Sure they do. Nothing has changed. There existed a larger global war and the course of action was rightfully derived from the context therein, wholly. That's pretty much all there is too it, the rest of the stuff in the DoW was fluff that probably should have been left out.

For context:
[spoiler]
[img]http://leasingnews.org/photos/youcanthandlethetruth.jpg[/img]
You can't handle the truth, etc
[/spoiler]
[/quote]

I don't think you understand that scene as well as you think you do. That leader arrogantly broke the very code he claimed to be upholding and wrote it off as necessity, whatever fancy speech he wanted to give to justify it. He got what was coming to him in the end.

Do I make the same call and attack NPO preemptively as was done in this war? Damn right I do. But sometimes that group of "armed militia" in the open really was just a family gathering and a judgment call results in death of innocents. That is one of the tragedies of war. I'll give your faction the benefit of the doubt and accept that a judgment call was made in attacking NPO. However, to date I have seen NO evidence that NPO was actually planning on entering the war, though as I have indicated elsewhere, they [i]should[/i] have done so before they were attacked. What I have been reading however is a lot of "yes they were", "no we weren't". Whether the whole Pacifica theater of the war was the correct call may never be known definitively. Your side won a victory, but don't rationalize it into some sort of high moral crusade against absolute evil doers. That's not what outsiders are seeing.

[Solaris]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1304606428' post='2706844']
Knock yourself out http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?app=blog&blogid=93&showentry=2140 and http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=92577&view=findpost&p=2464015
[/quote]
Ha. Just as expected. You used circular logic. You reveal nothing of your decision making process in that body of text, except that you think Methrage is not a rogue, because you and NPO [i]agreed[/i] that Methrage is not a rogue. Informative as always, Presbyter, but I guess that's how cult leaders quite often are.

I don't think anyone with at least 50% of the standard mediation of properly functional neurons has a big problem determining, that your agreement with NPO in regards to Methrage's status, was purely political.

Almost seems as if you'd be pretending to have beliefs, opinions, virtues, feelings, qualities, or standards that you don't actually have.

[Tygaland]

[quote name='Solaris' timestamp='1304607422' post='2706853']
Ha. Just as expected. You used circular logic. You reveal nothing of your decision making process in that body of text, except that you think Methrage is not a rogue, because you and NPO [i]agreed[/i] that Methrage is not a rogue. Informative as always, Presbyter, but I guess that's how cult leaders quite often are.

I don't think anyone with at least 50% of the standard mediation of properly functional neurons has a big problem determining, that your agreement with NPO in regards to Methrage's status, was purely political.

Almost seems as if you'd be pretending to have beliefs, opinions, virtues, feelings, qualities, or standards that you don't actually have.
[/quote]

If you read the comments afterwards you will find Shattenmann said that they considered Methrage to be the leader of a micro-alliance that was retaliating against GOONS raids.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Tygaland

[flak attack]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1304606428' post='2706844']
Knock yourself out http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?app=blog&blogid=93&showentry=2140 and http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=92577&view=findpost&p=2464015
[/quote]
You cover the who, what, when and where, but you seem to be missing the why. I would think a journalist as experienced as yourself would know better.

[Solaris]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1304607884' post='2706858']
If you read the comments afterwards you will find Shattenmann said that they considered Methrage to be the leader of a micro-alliance that was retaliating against GOONS raids.
[/quote]
Oh, thanks, haha. That's pretty much just as transparent as the data provided with comments excluded.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Solaris

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Solaris' timestamp='1304607422' post='2706853']
Ha. Just as expected. You used circular logic. You reveal nothing of your decision making process in that body of text, except that you think Methrage is not a rogue, because you and NPO [i]agreed[/i] that Methrage is not a rogue. Informative as always, Presbyter, but I guess that's how cult leaders quite often are.

I don't think anyone with at least 50% of the standard mediation of properly functional neurons has a big problem determining, that your agreement with NPO in regards to Methrage's status, was purely political.

Almost seems as if you'd be pretending to have beliefs, opinions, virtues, feelings, qualities, or standards that you don't actually have.
[/quote]
I didn't really expect you to be able to understand that criteria were used; no one from VE was able to get it the first time around. "So, what we have here is an alliance--KN--at war with GOONS, and a nation--Jim--at war with GOONS. One is not a rogue, the other does not seem to be a rogue, just a nation that GOONS decided to attack, and which decided to attack GOONS. Who are we to say who can send aid and who can't?"
Just as I decried the sanctions and PZIing of the leader of LUA for nuking during the NoV war because he was the leader of LUA and made the decision that LUA would nuke, I refused to sanction Methrage based on the same criteria. If you disagree, you are welcome to look up the word "rogue" and then explain to me how the leader of an alliance who decides to use nukes can be defined as a rogue. Quite the contrary to your claims, it is GOONS and their allies which made the request political with their threats (and now their war), not us.

edit: LUA, not FCO. It's nice to be so consistent in your values over 4 years that you forget names. I also don't expect anyone from VE to understand [i]that[/i].

Edited May 5, 2011 by Schattenmann

[D34th]

[quote name='Lord Gobb' timestamp='1304605642' post='2706838']
The two quotes have absolutely nothing to do with each other. We didn't attack NPO because their members were vocally supporting our friends' enemies, but it did strengthen the image that they were against us.
[/quote]

Many members of your coalition cited the threads made by Sir Paul and the posts of NPO members supporting Polaris as one of the reasons to attack NPO.

[Solaris]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1304608284' post='2706862']
I didn't really expect you to be able to understand that criteria were used; no one from VE was able to get it the first time around. "So, what we have here is an alliance--KN--at war with GOONS, and a nation--Jim--at war with GOONS. One is not a rogue, the other does not seem to be a rogue, just a nation that GOONS decided to attack, and which decided to attack GOONS. Who are we to say who can send aid and who can't?"
Just as I decried the sanctions and PZIing of the leader of LUA for nuking during the NoV war because he was the leader of FCO and made the decision that LUA would nuke, I refused to sanction Methrage based on the same criteria. If you disagree, you are welcome to look up the word "rogue" and then explain to me how the leader of an alliance who decides to use nukes can be defined as a rogue. Quite the contrary to your claims, it is GOONS and their allies which made the request political with their threats (and now their war), not us.

edit: LUA, not FCO. It's nice to be so consistent over 4 years that you forget names.
[/quote]
Oh, I understand perfectly. You define KN as an alliance, and that's pretty transparent.

[potato]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1304608316' post='2706863']
Many members of your coalition cited the threads made by Sir Paul and the posts of NPO members supporting Polaris as one of the reasons to attack NPO.
[/quote]

"one of"

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Solaris' timestamp='1304608460' post='2706864']
Oh, I understand perfectly. You define KN as an alliance, and that's pretty transparent.
[/quote]
Ohhhh, I get it! VE and GOONS and everyone else can set their own arbitrary definitions of "alliance" based on member count, but CoJ can't. Now who's transparent and circular? KN has a leader, they had at least 2 members at the time this occurred, they have a charter, they actively participate in inter-alliance politics, ODN declared war on- and signed peace with them, they recruit, they have forums. They are an alliance.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1304608833' post='2706865']
"one of"
[/quote]
I count two, Ardus and Azaghul. If Azaghul is wrong, then tell him to shut up, because it [i]is[/i] getting tedious seeing him complain about Sir Paul's lulz threads in every discussion about this war.

[D34th]

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1304608833' post='2706865']
"one of"
[/quote]

I didn't said that was the only reason, but the fact that it wasn't the only reason doesn't make what Ardus said about "The end of silence for fear of persecution." less false.

[Lord Velox]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1304608838' post='2706866']
Ohhhh, I get it! VE and GOONS and everyone else can set their own arbitrary definitions of "alliance" based on member count, but CoJ can't. Now who's transparent and circular? KN has a leader, they had at least 2 members at the time this occurred, they have a charter, they actively participate in inter-alliance politics, ODN declared war on- and signed peace with them, they recruit, they have forums. They are an alliance.
[/quote]
So he and his lackey constitute an alliance because they have forums?
Flawed logic.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1304609095' post='2706868']
I didn't said that was the only reason, but the fact that it wasn't the only reason doesn't make what Ardus said about "The end of silence for fear of persecution." less false.
[/quote]
Well if we're all honest here, it couldn't be made any less false than it already was when he said it, so let's not waste time arguing whether it could go into the negative range.

[Kowalski]

Nice to see CoJ apologising and paying reps.

[Tygaland]

[quote name='Lord Velox' timestamp='1304609372' post='2706870']
So he and his lackey constitute an alliance because they have forums?
Flawed logic.
[/quote]

CoJ and NPO are permitted to make their own judgements on who is and who is not an alliance just as GOONS and others do. Whether you agree with them is immaterial and because you disagree with them does not mean your allegation that the refusal to sanction Methrage based on a hatred of GOONS is true.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Tygaland

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1304610012' post='2706875']
Whether you agree with them is immaterial and because you disagree with them does not mean your allegation that the refusal to sanction Methrage based on a hatred of GOONS is true.
[/quote]
What's so silly about the "they hate us" argument is that it's "they didn't sanctio nhim because of the Red Safari and aiding Schatt's rogue" --- ok, so, if [i]you think [/i]that we don't sanction because we're pissed off, and you consider sanctions a courtesy, fine, don't piss us off. But, that isn't true. I've said it 4 or 5 times in the past hour, if GOONS has a real rogue, we will sanction the rogue.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Kowalski' timestamp='1304609990' post='2706873']
Nice to see CoJ apologising and paying reps.
[/quote]
Nice to see you agree with ODN that aiding nations at war is not an act of war. I guess you must also agree with CoJ's stance that JimKongIl was not a "rogue" for aiding Methrage; therefore, CoJ was correct not to sanction him for your big buddies GOONS. We call this a catch-22, and I will be happy to cite/consider GOONS's, Umbrella's, MK's, VE's, et al endorsement of ODN's position when determining whether sanctions are warranted in the future, after all, you guys made us sign it.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Schattenmann

[Solaris]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1304610527' post='2706881']
Nice to see you agree with ODN that aiding nations at war is not an act of war.
[/quote]
Now, that's putting words in his mouth. Naughty, naughty.