DragonsPhyre

Welp, whoever made our sigs gotta add a fourth pip to them now. Also, I bask in the warmth and welcome that everyone has given this announcement.

It's good to see this announced.

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1288725840' post='2500031'] FIRE failed again? I'm surprised! [/quote] Wish I could say the same about posts like yours. Welcome to official existence, Hooligans. I'm impressed with what I've seen so far and I look forward to seeing what the future holds in store for you guys.

Best of luck on your new path, VE. You know where to find us if you need us.

Reading far too much into it. It was never intended to be any more than a bit of bloodsport, a way to relieve some mild stress and have some fun with either the fighting or some betting. If you were hoping for salvation, I'm afraid you were ever looking in the wrong place. In my opinion, we need to get out of the rut of needing a major world war to spark change. If every time we went to war, we have to gauge whether or not we have the greater half of the entire aligned world on our side, it puts a bit of a damper on making war to prove a smaller point. Alliances are the smallest units of relevant political power, rather than nations, and it's been trending towards people needing to be in blocs to be relevant. When your alliance's connections are more important than your message, that signals something fundamentally wrong, I think.

Surprise was ruined, of course. :< This will be fun anyways. Let the games begin!

[quote name='Londo Mollari' timestamp='1286681431' post='2480118'] Unholy, how can you expect to win WHEN YOU GET OUR NEW BLOC TO DELAY THE GAME FOR 24 HOURS WITHOUT TELLING ME!!!! >.< [/quote] I blame Sparta.

When you feel like you need to start saying that "OMG, THIS GAME NEEDS A BAD GUY AND WE FILL THE ROLE", I have to start wondering whether you actually make a good bad guy.

This will be good.

[quote name='CRex of Gulo Gulo' timestamp='1285912244' post='2470818'] Dude, keep it on topic please. The point here isn't to quibble over labels, you have to call both sides something, but on methodology. [/quote] Your topic is entirely about labeling non-aligned and micro-alliances as unimportant to the larger picture, justifying unrestrained warfare against them and painting "moralists" as being worse than the raiders because they ("we", if I'm feeling in the mood for righteous indignation) don't do as much to directly affect those nations and micros. My post is mostly on-topic, even the aside, because the entirety of the last two paragraphs is using the word "moralist" as a negative label. Really, this whole post is just a long-winded way of saying "Raiders are doing good things because the people they raid wouldn't do anything important anyways Oh, and by the way, moralists are bad and their propaganda is stale."

[quote name='BaQuabah' timestamp='1285910526' post='2470785'] Do something [/quote] The essence of both what's wrong with this game's community and the solution to fixing it. As an aside, am I the only one getting tired of the word "moralist" being bandied about like some sort of curse or evil label that forever marks some poor player? "OH MY GOD, YOU SAID SOMETHING THAT SEEMS VAGUELY BASED ON MORAL GROUNDS. YOU ARE A GODDAMN MORALIST, SIR, AND I'M GOING TO TELL YOU SO WHILE PRETENDING TO BE COOL BY NOT GIVING A !@#$." ?

Moral crusades are more entertaining than simple lulz, imho. If you're going to fight, might as well make a public spectacle of it.

[quote name='Raider' timestamp='1285824449' post='2469430'] Oh well? OH WELL? I fought through the entire GATO-1V War for GATO, for justice, and against oppression. I don't see the same from UOKMB or The Ninjas or Fnka. I see a bunch of people who've seized upon the tech raiding issue and have wrapped that around themselves so they can war with GOONS under the guise of morality. I still GATO btw.[/quote] I'm more disappointed that you actually [i]joined[/i] that bunch of degenerates than the fact that you're fighting with them. Besides, moral crusades are more fun than simple wars. It adds a bit of spice to the politics and it's funny as hell to see the anti-moralists weigh in and blame the moralists for ruining everything.

[quote name='Raider' timestamp='1285822632' post='2469401'] I got one defense slot left. You going to get in on the fun or just watch? Com'on join the war. It'll be fun. [/quote] GOONS now? You disappoint me. I thought better of you from our 1V days. Oh well.

Good luck and fair winds, FnKa.

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1285446053' post='2464512']If we had been wrong and spied an innocent person, you might have a case.[/quote] Just out of curiosity, if he had been proven innocent after the spy op, but still declared on that GOONS nation because of it, what would you guys be doing?

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1285445016' post='2464491'] You're doing this on purpose, aren't you? [/quote] Yes. [quote name='dalstrs' timestamp='1285445165' post='2464496'] Really it's a case of:A guy was shot with a 9mm gun.You have a 9mm gun in your hand. You were there at the time.The other guy mentioned that you shot him.Why wouldn't you do a ballistics test just to make your case that much more concrete? [/quote] Are the facts of the case not strong enough to stand on their own or do you just like trying to make analogies to match the situation? [quote name='Phetion' timestamp='1285445342' post='2464500'] Because if they didn't you'd be running with the line "Where's the ocular proof?" instead of the crap you're trying to argue now. [/quote] Probably.

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1285444808' post='2464488'] Of course, they had. They had the exact same proof they showed STA when the_rebel acted cute. Look how it turned out: STA, who isn't GOONS' best friends, allowed spying. [/quote] If they had all this proof, why would they feel the need to spy? If spying isn't an act of war, why would they have needed STA's permission?

[quote name='dalstrs' timestamp='1285444022' post='2464476'] So according to you as long as I aid in secret I will never be a rogue from it because you will have to commit and act of war to prove it? This is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard. [/quote] I never mentioned being a rogue. Where did you get that impression from? Besides, Jim's not a rogue. He's defending his sovereignty. He declared on a GOONS nation because of the spy ops. No, you can commit an act of war by aiding secretly, but to prove it, the enemies of those who you aided would have to commit an act of war on you (spying). You can justify it in all sorts of ways, but those are the facts. It's a pretty simple thought process, and I'm a little confused as to why you think it's an idiotic one. [quote name='potato' timestamp='1285444205' post='2464481'] It wasn't just a "hunch" though. If you're too dumb to realise there was plenty of proof before that then you should really bow out of this. [/quote] They had indications he had sent secret aid to someone and suspected it was Methrage. They had no proof until the spy op results got back.

[quote name='dalstrs' timestamp='1285443577' post='2464469'] So as long as the aid is secret, he can't commit an act of war on GOONS because the only way to prove it to your satisfaction is to commit an act of war on him? [/quote] He can. You just have to commit a similar act of war to prove it.

[quote name='Louisa' timestamp='1285442621' post='2464448'] Eh, no, in fact he attacked[sup][color="#0000FF"]1[/color][/sup] the second he sent aid to Methrage. [sup][color="#0000FF"]1[/color][/sup] NB. (before you protest) not in the "firing shotgun in face" way. [/quote] "Committing an act of war" is not analogous to "attacking GOONS". One is a specific action, the other is a category of actions providing a sufficient cause for war. And at the time, GOONS only had a really strong suspicion that he had aided their enemy when they authorized getting someone to commit an act of war on Jim. Simply being proven right doesn't justify the spying. It just means GOONS proved their suspicion correct. GOONS was, in no way, acting in defense of their sovereignty when they spied on JimKongII. Jim was when he declared war on a GOONS nation after the spy op.

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1285434401' post='2464338'] Jim not only aided a rogue we were at war "secretly", but then decided to declare on our top nation. Your definition of the word 'rogue' must apply to people that have no possible way of existing on Bob. Not to mention, I'd like to see proof that GOONS actually conducted spy missions on his nation. Sounds much more like a hunch than our evidence of his aid. [/quote] GOONS doesn't have to spy on him (couldn't anyways, apparently) if you get friends to spy on him for you. Also, [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=92577&view=findpost&p=2460938]this information[/url] only comes from conducting a spy operation. He didn't attack you until that spy operation was conducted and had given warning that he would do so. Regardless of who he aided, your alliance provoked him by spying on him based on a hunch. A pretty strong one, but one, nonetheless.

Just to clear something up for me: You want someone to write a formal essay on the pros and cons of tech raiding as explained by proponents of both sides of the debate, using the information here as a basis for it?

Anything can be morally justifiable if you use the right buzzwords and have a competent propaganda machine to back you up. All you need to do to confirm this is to look at just about every crisis we've had here and study the wording used in posts from each side and the general perception displayed by the peanut gallery after the first day or hours of the event. A recent good example of this is the series of incidents surrounding the GOONS-Methrage conflict.

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1285161934' post='2460900']That and I believe you are unaligned, so they really can spy on you if they like.[/color] [/quote] No, it's still an act of war. Just on a smaller scale (nation, rather than alliance). Nations on None don't have any less protection from violations of sovereignty than nations sitting on an AA do. The only difference is that the allied nation has friends guaranteed to be willing to fight alongside it. This is an enjoyable thread so far, though.