Kilkenny

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1300655351' post='2671371'] This is the part that bothers me the most, its like people forgot about the negotiation part of surrender negotiations. Nobody counter offers. Or even worse, would make completely ludicrous counter offers and then act surprised when they were turned down. The winners make an offer, the other side goes "NO ONLY WHITE PEACE WE WILL NOT PAY YOU EVIL PEOPLE!" and [b]runs the to the OWF with a drama fest[/b]. I'd just once love to see somebody go "That's too high, how about we pay less, but do it in proportionally less time?". Or anything at all, its like people forgot the existence of the almighty counter offer. [/quote] Funnily enough that was DoomedHouse....they made an offer, an offer that I understand was different than the one in the OP, then run to the OWF to trumpet how nice and benevolent they are for making that offer, all without hearing back from NPO from what I gathered.

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1300655019' post='2671364'] If you had a MDP with NPO then you had ever right to hit us, as per treaty you hold. Just like anyone hitting us then better expect PB and any MDP partners we have to knock on their doors. As it has already been explained by better people than myself on the subject. If you hit us on an oA or dodge war while hiding from it. They alliances will most likely be charged reps. (If I'm wrong it will be corrected I'm sure) [/quote] Haven't seen where anyone is escaping the attempted rep charge from GOONs except NPO. The excuse being that EVERYONE had a choice of attacking, whether obligated or not.

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1300649546' post='2671261'] Tangent? Why would I need to do that? You do a fine job of that yourself. When this help coming? is that, "when is this help coming"? or what? I'm struggling to understand your English. What part of MDP bloc do you struggle with? The Mutual? The Defence? Or the Pact? You do know they have just been in a large war? You do know that they will join this battle as they are obligated to do so under the treaty we hold with them. Again I fail to see how you struggle with this? Simple much? [/quote] Uhm, no, they don't have to help you...according to your alliance. Afterall....isn't that why you are "punishing" all those allainces who attacked you by the activating of a D??? You claim we didn't have to attack, that is why we are being charged reps. So, they don't have to help you, by your own logic.

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1300579402' post='2670529'] It's more beneficial for them in the long term to get this over with as soon as possible. The longer they sit and stagnate, the more money they waste and the stronger we become. And why would we give them a chance to hit us? Are you seriously implying that despite knowing that they were going to enter the war against us, we should've just let them hit us first as it's only fair? [/quote] Where is your proof that they were going to hit you?? Are you saying that you have proof that NPO was going to Pre-empt you?? All I said was that if NPO was staying out cause you were, then if you stay out NPO does. And what is the benefit of coming out?? Letting you devistate their upper teirs?? or maybe they should stay where they are and continue to let you funnel money into GOONs and your own lower teirs...hmm that acctually sounds like a plan that causes you problems. Seems to me that you have more to gain by NPO coming out and getting things over with than they do.

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1300577379' post='2670484'] No, don't be silly. They're consistently neutral. They've chosen a way to conduct their affairs and stick with it. My criticism is of those who use peace mode when at war, not those who choose neutrality altogether. You don't get to swing back and forth. When you choose to interface with the greater global community and treaty web, you take the good with the bad. You do not get to choose to fight only the wars you will win. This isn't a new idea. Alliances that refuse treaty obligations or declare neutrality in conflicts in which they appear to have obligating interests catch a world of flak from everybody. There is no difference between this and say, for example, Legion's approach to this war, where nearly the entire alliance hides in peace mode after declaring war. Such is an attempt to dodge the disdain a neutrality declaration would have incurred [i]and[/i] the damage a war would cause. NPO is admittedly less guilty than Legion of this, but still took efforts to dodge a war that demanded a clear and decisive response, then hid its upper tier in peace mode when those efforts failed. [/quote] So, what you are saying is that because NPO won't play the way you want to, you won't give them peace?? I mean after you went to the trouble to attack them out of the blue they have the nerve to fight the way they want to fight and not the way you want?? How ungrateful of NPO!! Ya know, there is all this talk of "knowing" that NPO would enter the war if you did....so doesn't that mean that if you had stayed out of the war NPO would have?? oh wait, you don't know that, cause you didn't give them a chance.

[quote name='mattski133' timestamp='1300479029' post='2669297'] Point being, there's no rule that says anyone has to play by NPO's rules. [/quote] Then why are you requiring that NPO play by your rules??

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300220776' post='2665753'] It would have helped Polar's side if let's say they go in after all the swing alliances go in(I guess the time would be after all the AZTEC alliance's chained in(like NoR, DT,AB, etc.) , they could at least inflict damage on someone with an attack before getting countered if they had gone with a similar upper tier pm strategy and then entered. Because NPO had not entered they didn't do any damage to anyone on VE's side. It was funny since they pre-empted the pre-empt by sitting back, TPF beefing up militarily, and moving people to PM days in advance causing the pre-empt to actually happen. It was a self-fulfilling prophecy because until they started doing that, preemption was not definite. No, it doesn't assert that at all. Basically, everyone on one end of the spectrum has taken advantage of what it supposedly asserts and it's helped you that Archon hasn't been around(he completely disappeared after the DoW) to clarify, but the point was that NPO/NPO allies were being held off. It does not say "NPO was not going to enter at all." I know this because I knew what his intent was when he wrote it because he was referring to the line "NPO cannot come out now. They must be protected," that would be leaked later on. I've clarified his perspective on the war and I've had to address this a million times. I've had to show this a million times but this is how he saw the war. [/quote] TPF's beefing up and going into PM was in response to the rumor that we were going to be attacked in an effort to draw NPO into the fray. It seems we were mistaken in that it was NPO who was hit, not us. The fact doesn't change that the entire war was run in a way to draw NPO into the war. NPO attempted to stay out of it, to no avail. Funny that Archon's view of the war was the same as TOP's when they pre-empted MK in Bi-Polar...something Archon & Co were very critical of TOP for. Funny, they don't seem to have an issue using it, just having it used on them.

[quote name='hizzy' timestamp='1300069100' post='2663919'] inb4 retarded debate [/quote] eh, think you are too late for that...LOL

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1300068148' post='2663899'] Uhh no. If lots of people don't like you, and you don't change that perception, then lots of people will remain at the state of not liking you. Its NPO's fault they remain disliked. NPO got attacked because they were disliked enough. Its NPO's fault they are disliked to that thresh hold, its not NPO's fault they got attacked. I know the difference is subtle to one of your feeble intellect, but try to grasp the important bits here. As has been noted several times now, this war happened (and is working) because NPO and NpO are just that unpopular, it there for follows if they were not that heavily disliked the war would not have happened (or at least taken a much different shape). So again, getting attacked is not their fault, but why people want to attack them is their fault and something they could have changed. [/quote] The problem with that is this. The people who dislike them will accept nothing that NPO does as change. Everything they do is either a PR ploy, too little too late, isn't enough or is too much. At this point why should they even try??? I mean what could they do that would be accepted by you and those that hate them?? Seriously, they can't win either way. Edit: And yet they do try, and even posted this knowing the reaction. Props to them, cause it would drive me batty.

Can't say this was unexpected. Good luck RoK o/ RoK

[quote name='Antonio Salovega VI' timestamp='1300035454' post='2663021'] For those Pacificans who feign a lack of understanding as to why Planet Bob does not take their words at face value, it is as simple as one ... two ... three. 1. NPO's so called apology was not presented by the exalted Clown Prince Chuckles nor even by the Fantabulous Clown Princess Mary. Each of them was given an almost-but-not-quite plausible excuse for their absense. This appears to be a set up for a typical NPO denial down the road to the effect that because it lacked their official stamp of approval, it did not not happen. 2. The apology is offered during a time of war, when NPO is getting its collected rear-end kicked around the proverbial block and one of the prime kickers is the apologee. 3. NPO is famous for smiling ever so sweetly while it carefully plans to shove a shiv into its next intended victim. TL;DR: Can you say "ploy"? [/quote] Well, one thing is certain, NPO can't win. If they don't apologize they are called out for it. If they apologized before the war, it would have been called a cheap effort to avoid the beatdown. If they apologized after the war (Karma or this one) then it would have been called forced and not true. Seems the out come to the peanut gallery is the same. The problem is, FAN's opinion is the one that matters. No matter what, this was needed for them (NPO and FAN) to move forward. Whether that forward is to friendship or hostility is for them to determine. One thing is for certain, NPO knew this would happen when they posted it. For that, much respect.

Congrats on Peace guys.... Good luck with the rebuilding!!

Congrats on Peace STA!!! Onward to rebuilding!! o/ STA o/ TPF

[quote name='Lamuella' timestamp='1299223471' post='2652231'] Wow, we've been busy. When did we attack tpf? [/quote] When, By DH Logic, you attacked NPO, our MDAP partner. Coalition warfare...remember??

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1299199776' post='2651723'] We didn't attack TPF. TPF attacked us. 64Digits optionally chained in. I don't see how it could be extortion if they had every ability to not attack us, but chose to anyway. Lots of people optionally chained in and attacked only GOONS. I know deflections like "honor" were thrown around, but no. It was just a dogpile on people they wanted to get a shot off at. If they opt for not paying reps over an optional war, that's their own problem. [/quote] Actually, according to your own logic, you did attack us. We have a MDAP with NPO, so an attack on them is an attack on us. So those attacking any of DH, were activating the Defensive clause, of which I don't believe we have any that are optional.

[quote name='Lord Brendan' timestamp='1298241107' post='2639836'] The reparations are because [b]Dark Templar had no motive to hit us[/b], other than "for the hell of it". Now, they say they came in because they are allies with LoSS. However, they've shown that to be a lie through their actions. Six days into the war they tried to negotiate a separate peace with us, insulting LoSS's coordination in the process. Quite obviously they are not good friends or allies. That leaves them with little reason to hit us other than being able to get a little action in the war without taking too much damage. That doesn't fly with us. [/quote] Thought that DT attacked Legacy and YOU attacked DT??

[quote name='neneko' timestamp='1298218559' post='2639505'] Overcrowded? NPO have explained to me that they're winning this. We need all the help we can get. [/quote] But they didn't jump in on NPO...leaving them still winning

[quote name='Barnaby von Farter' timestamp='1298216136' post='2639471'] That's a far cry better than 40,000 tech, for a much better reason. Our lawyers will contact your lawyers. [/quote] and it is an indefinite license.. i am feeling very chairitable right now.

[quote name='Kestral' timestamp='1298213883' post='2639458'] Oh right, so when ODN are being mocked for being 340 against 20, it's actually because they should have brought the rest of CnG in to make it 600 odd on 20? Come on guys lets try and be a little bit consistant on why ODN are the monster. Bringing in too many nations, not bringing in more, not defending treaties in the past, defending their treaties now, harbouring joracy... [/quote] Actually it is more like they picked 340 to 20 odds instead of 340 to say 120 odds Also, since ODN is clearly infringing on my copyright of the hunger statement...Rather than sue, I will take 9mil 150 tech for the rights to use it, no matter how Optional they are. The Phoenix Hungers

[quote name='MrMuz' timestamp='1298050461' post='2637631'] Tsk tsk, 14 deserters. [/quote] Actually the -14 is the number of spots they fell, not members lost.

[quote name='erikz' timestamp='1297844371' post='2635481'] Quit crying. We had to cope with 8 alliances, and we enjoyed it. I'm sure TPF will also enjoy some filled defensive slots. [/quote] Actually, nope....and by nope I mean while we would enjoy seeing more defensive slots filled....We haven't seen much. TBH, seems like a big tech raid for us. But we do enjoy Tech raiding.

[quote name='Hidraca' timestamp='1297618101' post='2631233'] What language did I use to indicate that? Usually when a nation applies to an Alliance the alliance asks the nation, Do you have any enemies? If the nation is responsible they'll say yes. Said Alliance would then come to the offended party and ask the nature of the offence. I would say that if both the new Alliance and the offensive nation act respectfully in talks then both parties have nothing to worry about. Also as an aside, If we notice an EoG member moved to an alliance without telling them his status. We will take it on ourselves to speak with the new alliance. Again depending on how respectful this process is both parties can get a favorable outcome. [/quote] Did you not read the bolded part I quoted from you??? I will help: [quote name='Hidraca' timestamp='1297582890' post='2631039'] Really, TheRebel was re-added because we want some new MsPaints. Also, the EoG list ins't a ZI list as people know it. There's plenty of ways to get off the list. Also, our members aren't the ones to put in the effort required to keep an EoG member in constant war. [b]If anything a person on the list really has to worry about being attacked at random more than anything else[/b]. [/quote] Did that help you?? Since the current conversation is about the rebel... yeah, it seems like you are saying that those on your EoG list are up for random attacks even if in an alliance. I mean that is what he has to worry about mostly, right??

[quote name='Hidraca' timestamp='1297582890' post='2631039'] Really, TheRebel was re-added because we want some new MsPaints. Also, the EoG list ins't a ZI list as people know it. There's plenty of ways to get off the list. Also, our members aren't the ones to put in the effort required to keep an EoG member in constant war. [b]If anything a person on the list really has to worry about being attacked at random more than anything else[/b]. [/quote] So being on the EoG list means anyone can attack them without fear from their current alliance??? Seriously??

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1297541938' post='2630541'] if you know what's good for you you will back off the QDF. Now. [/quote] Nope, i am waging a one man campaign against the QDF. Nukes landed....1.

[quote name='Chickenzilla' timestamp='1297540069' post='2630519'] btw, didn't TPF attack MK? Why did TOOL enter on a defensive clause? [/quote] You could argue that round and round for hours, we entered in defense of NPO due to DumbHouse's unwarrented aggression. We attacked GOONs. But later MK attacked us, and in a round about way confirmed they had declared war on us in support of GOONs, so we actually were attacked by MK. so defensive works.... Not sure why a member of the Quiziotle Defense Force is worried about this. Don't you have your own wars to worry about?? Also, if you are in the Quiziotle Defense Force, why does it say Pit Viper of the Kingdom in your AA here?? Shouldn't that read Deserter of the Kingdom??