Jocko Homo

[quote name='Zhaan' timestamp='1297096894' post='2624098'] From the outside looking in, it appears FAN has made the only real attempts at mending relations. But, I'm not privy to anymore than I can read on these forums. The truth is that two civilized leaders coming to the table to talk as educated men can resolve conflict and restore faith for all nations under their care and guidance. Is that really so hard? The only thing that will happen here is NPO and FAN continue to tear each other down while the rest of the world eventually moves onward and upward. Pity. [/quote] Zhann, You are exactly right. That's why FAN hosted private talks with NPO after the Karma war. We realized that it was in our best interest to move on. But to move on we had to be sure both of us moved on. We said it pretty clearly right out of the gate. [quote name='DelSolid (Bad JuJu)'] If we go to war with each other, regardless of the stated CB, it will be seen by all as the two rabid dogs fighting again, proving that the second chances we were both given were a waste. If we go to war again we will both be damned by the entirety of CN and coupled with neither side willing to surrender our war will effectively be to the death. We may roll around grappling with each other for 10 years but as far as CN is concerned we will both be irrelevant and they will go on without us.[/quote] FAN wanted to move on. We hosted those talks in private so we could sit down and talk frankly, without the public relations posturing that public talks so often degrade into. I think those extracts shown here clearly show that FAN was 100% on board, but unfortunately we learned that we were the only ones prepared to talk openly and honestly and the talks ended under yet another cloud of NPO deception.

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1297098010' post='2624131'] [quote name='Jocko Homo' timestamp='1297096095' post='2624077']So I'll take that as a failure to cite your references. [/quote] I'm far too lazy to go digging through thousands of posts in various threads for your gratification.[/quote] Don't be so hard on yourself. It's not lazy to refuse to go "digging through thousands of posts in various threads" looking for something that doesn't exist. It's actually pretty smart.

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1297097028' post='2624100']Oh for Pete's sake, that is in the past.[/quote] Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it. [quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1297097028' post='2624100']They already paid for that, and dearly.[/quote] Funny, I looked into my chart of accounts and saw that they still had one hell of an outstanding balance. The fact that it is happening to an alliance who spent the entirety of their existence bullying others and repeatedly hitting them for "crimes" already paid for is just the icing on the cake darling.

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1297063413' post='2623766'] [quote name='Jocko Homo' timestamp='1297059531' post='2623624'] [quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1297058665' post='2623590'] That's crap. You expect Pacifica to expel two of it's past Emperors or something? [b]Pacifica apologized for their actions, as did Dilber and Moo.[/b] To expect that NPO would throw them to the dogs to win favour with anyone is ridiculous. Would you have sacrificed Mpol for NoR/NoV? And war crimes? Come on mang, are you the next ShinRa or something? Going to start raving about genocide and death camps soon? [/quote] Can you please cite your references for this statement please? Because if you are stating that Pacifica and Dilber and Moo have each apologized to FAN, and that is who Sigrun Vapneir was clearly talking about, then I suspect that you sir are telling an untruth. [/quote] Damn you and your edits forcing me to change my response. It seemed to me that he started out talking about FAN and then went into more general terms, but anyway. Pacifica has said multiple times that the events around the redeclaration could have been handled better and that that war shouldn't have gone as long as it did, I seem to remember a statement from Moo to that effect around Karma. As for Dilber, I'm not sure. Why you want an apology from Dilber when Moo was Emperor for both wars I'm not sure either. And Cortath as current Emperor approached you guys as well. His piece (OOC?: on CN radio) showed he spent time and effort trying to clear the air with FAN. [/quote] So I'll take that as a failure to cite your references. If Cortath and the NPO spent one tenth as much time actually trying to mend fences as they do trying to [i]appear[/i] as though they are mending fences they wouldn't be in this war.

[quote name='Joe Izuzu' timestamp='1297065810' post='2623807'] Having read the logs posted by Jocko, I will simply say that they don't demonstrate any unwillingness on the part of NPO to achieve rapport with FAN. On the contrary, they simply illustrate the difficulties in doing so. I realize that you have issues with us that have not been resolved, however, the fact that your issues have not been resolved do not demonstrate that NPO is not willing and has not demonstrated a willingness to try to move forward from the issues of the past. In some cases, the remedies insisted upon are simply not practicable. While we are willing to admit the errors of the past, that does not mean that we shall cast our Comrades to the ravening of the wolves. If you cannot acknowledge that, then there is truly not much that we can do to ameliorate your hatred. [/quote] Joe, what I posted was not logs of any sort and don't necessarily represent the basic thrust of the discussions. I simply posted the expanded and complete DelSolid posts that Sir Paul was selectively quoting from so the people of CN can see the truth of what was said. What I didn't post was where Cortath was caught red handed in a significant lie and the resulting closure of the consulate. That lie cut to the very heart of Cortath's and NPO's credibility since the entire NPO defense was "well you are just going to have to believe us, we have changed". It is clearly shown by the DelSolid posts that FAN came to the table prepared to have tough discussions in a frank and open way. Unfortunately NPO only came with their PR machine loaded and in this case being one step ahead of the truth bit them in the ass.

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1297058665' post='2623590']You expect Pacifica to expel two of it's past Emperors or something? [/quote] No Mr. Conqueror, we expect them [i]to die.[/i]

gotta love this

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1297058665' post='2623590'] That's crap. You expect Pacifica to expel two of it's past Emperors or something? [b]Pacifica apologized for their actions, as did Dilber and Moo.[/b] To expect that NPO would throw them to the dogs to win favour with anyone is ridiculous. [/quote] Can you please cite your references for this statement please? Because if you are stating that Pacifica and Dilber and Moo have each apologized to FAN, and that is who Sigrun Vapneir was clearly talking about, then I suspect that you sir are telling an untruth.

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1297057224' post='2623487'] While interesting and informing, nothing in there really contradicts what was said in the article. It wasn't relevant to his point, why would he need to include the whole thing? Should he just dump the whole embassy while he's at it? [/quote] You are correct, it wasn't relevant to [i]his[/i] point, which was to disseminate propaganda. It was however relevant to the truth.

[quote name='Sir Paul' timestamp='1297052369' post='2623204'] As to the future, I’ll tell you the same thing I told VE: I’m not in hate with you. Quite frankly, there are not enough graves on earth hold all those who’ve wronged me, so with respect to FAN, we’ve decided to move on and do our best to help you along with that as well. You got involved with a rough crowd and it feels like 2006 again, riding around on your Harley, hassling shopkeepers and smashing mailboxes, but you just look silly. If you want to get off of this bandwagon and stop with the !@#$%^&*, I’m willing to let bygones be bygones. If you want to continue this, that’s your business, but I’ll leave you with the words of delsolid. [quote name='DelSolid (Bad JuJu)'] The reality is that FAN is enjoying it's second, and last, chance to be an accepted and respected alliance in CN. We realize this and we understand how we got to this point. CN saw us as a rabid dog that needed to be taken care of. <snip> If we go to war with each other, regardless of the stated CB, it will be seen by all as the two rabid dogs fighting again, proving that the second chances we were both given were a waste. If we go to war again we will both be damned by the entirety of CN and coupled with neither side willing to surrender our war will effectively be to the death. We may roll around grappling with each other for 10 years but as far as CN is concerned we will both be irrelevant and they will go on without us.[/quote] [/quote] While it's interesting that you quote DelSolid (Bad JuJu to the CN forum people), it's FAR MORE INTERESTING to show what you removed from the post that the above was taken from. [quote name='DelSolid (Bad JuJu)'] Thank you for coming by Cortath. After our past history, I believe that we can all agree on 3 things: 1. If NPO and FAN find themselves in another war it will be to "the death" 2. NPO is in CN for the long haul 3. FAN is in CN for the long haul as well So our next conflict (if it happens) will be never-ending and IMO it will prevent both of us from reaching our potentials for the remainder of the [ooc]game[/ooc] (we both lose). [b]With that said, I have zero belief in NPO's ability to "move on" from our past conflict. This is based not only on our past history with NPO but also on NPO's historical dealings with other alliances.[/b] Both Jack and MrSmyth have both said it and I will reiterate it as well, how, after NPO's actions in the past, can a run of the mill FAN member believe that NPO will ever let bygones be bygones? What could FAN do to convince NPO members that the past is the past and we are not going about all our stockpiling for an attack on you 15 minutes before your terms expire? [b]As long as both sides mistrust each other as much as we do then our future prospects are quite dim.[/b] I personally would like to see us move past this into a new future but that's simply not going to happen unless we get some trust going, and in all honesty I can't fathom how that's going to happen. But I'm open to ideas. [/quote] [quote name='DelSolid (Bad JuJu)'] My point #1 is meant to express the fact that if another war between FAN and NPO breaks out neither side will give up. FAN has already learned that surrendering to NPO is pointless and if your existing terms simply lead to another war with FAN then you will hold the same opinion of us. And lets be honest, the only reason our past war was ended was due entirely to outside pressure. If not for the Karma war we would still be happily at each others throats slashing and biting. The original reason for the war is still very much unresolved. [color=red]FAN is currently enjoying it's second, and possibly last chance to be an accepted and respected alliance in CN. We realize this and we understand how we got to this point. CN saw us as a rabid dog that needed to be taken care of.[/color] I wont argue the validity of this point as it is the perception of the CN community that matters not the reality and I accept that that was their view of us (at least a majority). Every day of our lives are now spent showing CN that we are not the rabid dogs that we were branded as and we do deserve the support they have shown us. But we also understand that if we do something stupid then it will simply prove that we are still crazy, dangerous and rabid and should have been put down permanently. [b]The real question is if NPO realizes it is in the exact same position as us, only worse. FAN only "wronged" (again, I am talking perception, not reality) a small group of people where NPO has stood tall as bullies (again, perception) over pretty much the entirety of CN. NPO was easily convicted in the court of public opinion of being a rabid dog and dealt with accordingly. By the grace of CN you were finally given conditional peace and you are working within that framework. Every day of your future will be scrutinized for signs of the rabies coming back and if it does you will be dealt with swiftly by a vast coalition regardless of your treaties. The rank and file members of CN will demand it.[/b] You see, we are both on a tightrope and can both look forward to tighter scrutiny than anyone else is forced to endure. [color=red]If we go to war with each other, regardless of the stated CB, it will be seen by all as the two rabid dogs fighting again, proving that the second chances we were both given were a waste. If we go to war again we will both be damned by the entirety of CN and coupled with neither side willing to surrender our war will effectively be to the death. We may roll around grappling with each other for 10 years but as far as CN is concerned we will both be irrelevant and they will go on without us.[/color] [b]If one or both of us see this war as inevitable then the preemptive first strike comes into play and may even seem to be the "purely practical" thing to do.[/b] [/quote] [quote name='DelSolid (Bad JuJu)'] [b]First, I want to be perfectly honest. The typical FAN member is pretty much positive that NPO has not changed at all. Seeing names like Dilber, Vladimir, Umbrae, Mary in the highest positions of your government pretty much kills the “we are different” argument. Saying Moo is essentially gone but having him idling in #NSA makes us think twice about everything we hear.[/b] Despite my [ooc]in-game[/ooc] antics, [b]I am probably the closest thing FAN has to a dove and even I don’t trust the NPO. I want to trust you but I also want to believe in Santa Claus. Sadly, In both cases, reason has led me to believe otherwise.[/b] In the past I have trusted you. I was in the government that offered the only FAN surrender in the history of the Alliance. As we all know, it didn't end well despite having NPO's word that it would. [b]In short, the burden of proof rests on your shoulders. You placed it there yourself since the last time we had an agreement NPO broke it spectacularly. Consequently, we don't give NPO's word much weight (actually zero) and right now that's all you offer.[/b] I know it was not YOUR word that was broken in the past. But since I don't know you I have to make my judgments based on the company you keep. I understand your reasoning and agree with it, If I believed you, But I can't. Not without something more substantial than your word. After idling in #FAN I am sure that all of you are aware of the common FAN members feelings towards you and your trustworthiness. That is a real shame because I remember a time when we would have charged the gates of hell for each other. That's how much damage NPO's past actions have caused to our relationship. I am not telling you this to bust your balls (figuratively speaking Applesauce) I am simply putting it out in the open because it’s the reality of our situation. As a peace negotiator for FAN, I remember what it was like to try to build a bridge to an alliance who we had been at war with and who possessed no faith at all in our ability to be trustworthy. It’s a damn tough row to hoe. But even with all those alliances, none of them approached the difficulties that exist between our two alliances. Now, with that said, if you have a plan to build some sort of bridge, no matter how small, between NPO and FAN then I'm all ears. [/quote] I have added the highlights to show the more interesting things left out of NPO's propaganda (red). Those three posts were written to NPO on January 15-17, 2010. Over a year ago. I think they were very clear and the selective editing done in this OP is also very clear.... FAN went into those talks honestly and openly. We made the seriousness of the FAN-NPO situation as plain as humanly possible and clearly said, multiple times, that unless extraordinary efforts were made in rebuilding the mutual trust then we would surely find ourselves back at war. No serious effort was made. It wasn't even close. Note: I added the [ooc] and [/ooc] tags in a couple places in the above quotes to keep thinks OK around here.

God I love this war. TOP

[quote name='Shoofly' timestamp='1297021152' post='2622471'] For anyone with historical perspective, this declaration saddens me. All I have to say is that you'd better give us your best shot and make it count ODN. You're going to have to kill us all before we let this one go. [/quote] The Legion that was once the closest ally of ODN died a long time ago. Since that time the Legion has had the magical ability to be on the wrong side of pretty much every major conflict in the history of CN. The pathetic thing that shambles about now mumbling "Ave Legio" and "Unity is Strength" is just a reanimated corpse dressed in a purple toga and controlled by an NPO brain implant. I agree with you on one point and that's the fact that you need to be put down once and for all.

[quote name='Seipher Caim' timestamp='1297033898' post='2622824'] 6-2 Upddate [img]http://i355.photobucket.com/albums/r471/SeipherCaim/warweb6-2a.jpg[/img] Changed some stuff... mostly color... [/quote] If you are going to change color than for the love of all that is holy please stop with the green/pink business and just roll with red or blue. Everybody knows the arguments for the whole "separate" conflict thing but there is now so much interchange between the two conflicts that picking just two colors and sticking with it just makes the chart easier to read. Otherwise, great work, The only map I use. edit: or at least change the green into light blue and the pink into light red.

[quote name='silentkiller' timestamp='1297020929' post='2622461'] - Someone forgot to tell Archon apparently. - Lets kill GPA someday shall we? Those opportunist cowards! [/quote] You guys already tried that remember? Oh yeah, I forgot, you always try to rewrite history in your favor so I guess you have to act like you didn't do that.

I did this years ago (my first animated gif) but it's still funny. [img]http://fangamers.net/imagehosting/1734b4b9331dbc0a.gif[/img] Have fun with your turkey shoot C&G.

[quote name='UltimateDogg' timestamp='1296888122' post='2620164']This war? Still lame, and our entrance does not endorse the main conflicts[/quote] Granted, It may lame but it's the only war we got so I'm going to enjoy it.

I knew you couldn't let a good war pass you by Best of luck! I was already drinking a beer but now I will claim I popped it in your honor

Yes, you said that earlier.

Good show OSA

[quote name='mythicknight' timestamp='1296697528' post='2616824'] Don't disappoint. [/quote] I'll try not to but I should correct my post. While my statement clearly said "Orders" I really cant say I consider NpO one of the "Orders" anymore. To me, when I say the Orders I will always mean the force that tried to manipulate the entire planet, kill us and hold us under permanent war. That evil force is still very much alive in NPO and a little in NSO as well, However, I don't associate that with Polar at all. I know some of you guys really dislike Polar and your reasons may be valid (I don't know) but I have to say I am pretty much indifferent to them. My propensity to bunch them together with their dysfunctional in-laws is due to a failure on my part to see past my admittedly 4 year old viewpoint and the fact that their flag just reminds me too damn much of NPOs and I respond automatically. While we are currently on opposite sides of the (combined) war map, we aren't enemies. FAN and Polar buried the hatchet many moons ago. Sorry.

Congrats to Peace!

Most deserved! Congratulations!

So basically you admit to having absolutely no first hand knowledge of this and are just telling all of us what your Bro said? Thanks for playing.

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1296544481' post='2614402'] So sorry, but that doesn't mean they're actually *listening* to what you have to say. They're only dialing up to refute it.[/quote] I'm not even dialin' it in. I'm tweetin' it in.

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1296544401' post='2614401'] Whomever this forum gives me notifications of quoting what I say, presumably. [/quote] Quit jerkin around, you dang near made me spill the rub and it's the last bottle I got. [img]http://www.oldtownmkt.com/images/products/large/Rub_Texas_Pig_Rub.jpg[/img]