Megamind

[quote name='Xero555' timestamp='1326916874' post='2902275'] Does anyone even care? [/quote] In short. No

Thanks for the war, even though it was boring as hell for those of us up here once all the nations in range had been beaten down Anyways hopefully NpO will live up to article 8 so we won't have to repeat this dance in 2 years... EDIT: Oh and thanks to our allies and the others that fought on our side, you guys are great

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1329437982' post='2922130'] I'm not sure where you guys are getting the NPO thing from, seems his grudge has been pretty focused on MK and whatever other allies they have who do the same thing which caused him to dislike MK. [/quote] I'd assume it's from this and similar posts: [quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1329417730' post='2921901'] Charles wasn't the leak. It was just something Kalanyr dumped that Charles wrote. Good then it's going to be tough for them to mount a defense for an Emperor that makes enemies as much as possible. Oh the irony. [u]NPO will die because of you. I can make it happen too. So you just signed your own death warrant.[/u] Much appreciated. Like I said you don't know how big of a favor you've done me. [/quote]

Demons! Demons!

[quote name='mmansfield68' timestamp='1329179814' post='2919729'] Hey, wait! What happened to the guy with the thing, who used to do the stuff???? [/quote] We [i]took care[/i] of him!

Here's to you passing it many more times [img]http://www.avelegio.net/forums/images/smilies/cheers.gif[/img]

[quote name='Sarmatian Empire' timestamp='1329099028' post='2919308'] suspense killer [/quote] Fake suspense creation attempter

[quote name='obscurus' timestamp='1329055703' post='2918983'] Cent's head of diplomacy? Expect a major global war soon. Oh damn, forgot we had it already... [/quote] Doesn't mean we can't have another!

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1328999082' post='2918611'] Congrats to Megamind and Skygreenchick. Unfortunately, they're the only ones I know up there. [/quote] The only ones worth knowing IMHO [quote name='Steve Buscemi' timestamp='1329032287' post='2918915'] So is TOP a NPO puppet state now? [/quote] TOP has always been an NPO puppet state...keep up!

TOP is definitely doomed

Oooooh that guy

Can someone please explain to me who this guy is and why I should care that he's back?

Who are you?

I like it

[quote name='King Penchuk' timestamp='1328195509' post='2913158'] Polaris is falling faster than alliances that are not being attacked by several large alliances? How shocking! [/quote] Considering each of your nation can hit multiple of ours, you should really be able to do more damage than us. Of course since the war has dragged on for a while your nations are probably running out of money, limiting their ability to fight back, but still, being outnumbered doesn't necessarily mean you have to lose more...

[quote name='enderland' timestamp='1328050886' post='2911860'] I think we agree with each other Megamind [/quote] Yeah I know [quote name='Isaac MatthewII' timestamp='1328051204' post='2911863'] Actually Adel didnt appoint her self. [/quote] Pray tell, who did then?

[quote name='enderland' timestamp='1328050390' post='2911849'] Was Adel emperor prior to the forums being deleted? [/quote] No? That's what I'm saying. Adel ignored the RoK charter and used her administrative powers to remove the legitimate government.

Yay OMFG

[quote name='enderland' timestamp='1328049600' post='2911834'] Didn't the current emperor only get there by deleting all the forums and simply assuming the role? [/quote] Yes? But unless I'm reading what JonAce wrote wrong, what he is arguing is that the RoK charter lacks a way to deal with people trying to overthrow the legitimate government. I was merely pointing out that part of the RoK charter gives the emperor absolute power and as such one would assume that the emperor would have the power to punish usurpers. That the Adel administration decided to completely ignore the RoK charter and use their power as forum administration to take over the power is unfortunate, but it doesn't change the fact that technically the charter does have a way for the emperor to punish usurpers

[quote name='JonAce' timestamp='1328047992' post='2911811'] Having a line in the charter as simple as "Any calls for the Emperor to be removed forcefully by any Ragnarok member will be met with extreme force" could have cleared up any ambiguity. Just calling the Emperor position a lifetime position doesn't hold enough weight if you don't have consequences to those who would seek to usurp. [/quote] How about we just use this line: [quote]The final decision, in all matters, will be decided by the Emperor.[/quote] Does that hold weight enough? [quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1328048829' post='2911822'] Sardonic, I think we simply disagree over the morality of demanding that a tech raid target lay down and take it, and it's probably best not to derail the thread onto that. [/quote] Even if you don't buy into the morality of demanding a tech raid target lays down, I don't see how you can say that MK are being unreasonable in this situation. Do you expect them to just let Kait go, when she continues to nuke them? If she was truly interested in obtaining peace wouldn't the logical thing be to not continue to nuke MK members?

[quote name='Mustakrakish II' timestamp='1328029886' post='2911572'] But other than these allies, is an alliance really obligated to tell all? No. And [u]that leads to some of the more interesting things in CN[/u] that make this game fun. [/quote] Hell no. Uncertainty leads to everyone being too afraid to make a damn move. People don't start wars unless they know they're going to win and with more uncertainty you have to calculate with a greater margin of error when putting together your war coalition, which leads to coalitions coming together less often, which leads to less wars, which leads to less interesting things.

[quote name='Isaac MatthewII' timestamp='1327994624' post='2911435'] I think you still fail to see how none of this is your business, we can do what we like in our alliance, being our alliance. Adel was selected by the members, [b]no coup is ever legal[/b], get over it bob and joe arent going to do what you wanted with RoK. [/quote] So what you are saying is that the Adel administration is illegal, but that it's ok because it's none of our business?

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1327967720' post='2910990'] You are arguing that every member can be claimed as a member of an alliance even if they do not officially hold the alliance affiliation. It would be as if Xiphosis rescinded his GOD AA to hit TOP and you held GOD accountable.[/quote] No, that would more or less be the exact opposite of this situation. A more accurate analogy would be Xiph rescinding his membership, hitting TOP and then GOD going 'oh, we still consider him a member'. I can assure you that we would most definitely hold GOD responsible in that case since they just had a member attack us. Just as MK is justified in holding RoK responsible for their member nuking a member of MK. [quote]That is preposterous and is certainly not the norm of this planet historically and even now. This situation is only different because MK chooses to make it as such, not because it actually is. This thought, in addition to more evidence brought which is quite relevant when discussing differing views of sovereignty conclusively illustrates a decidedly markedly different view of MK and the rest of the planet, (although to be fair this is more of a recent development rather than a historical outlook by MK.) Not to say MK is wrong or right with that mindset, just that it contrasts with generally accepted rule of law for eons.[/quote] Again, no. Members of MK changed to an AA that was clearly affiliated with MK and attacked. The government of MK has at no time claimed that they weren't members of MK, in fact they've stated repeatedly that they are in fact members of MK and have been throughout this entire thing. RoK on the other hand declared Kait a ghost and then once the leadership situation in RoK changed decided reactivate Kait's membership, despite her being at war with members of MK. If anyone is going against the norm of planet Bob, it is RoK, by accepting a member at war and then expecting not to be held responsible for said members actions. [quote]A great counterpoint would be that this member was not a member of MK at the time it decided to raid the individual, but accepting that simply is an unacceptable response (for fun,) in context with those who made that decision and as a result were promptly removed from government and/or the alliance, context pervades that this situation should be resolved in other ways.[/quote] The AA they held when they attacked were clearly affiliated with MK and the government of MK has stated time and time again that they were, are and continue to be members of MK. There was never any confusion about that and thus your point is invalid. [quote]From what I can tell Ragnarok as a whole does not agree with the decision that was made by Bob and Joe and their removal was contingent on events during and after making that decision.[/quote] That still doesn't matter. At the time the decision was made, Bob and Joe were the rightful rulers of RoK and had the authority, under the RoK charter, to make the decision they made. That elements within RoK later decided to disregard their charter and take over the alliance doesn't effect the legitimacy of Bob and Joe's decision. [quote]Again, ignoring the fact that the raider is not an official member of MK per the alliance in the actual DoW, ideally it would be between this individual and RoK to sort out the dispute.[/quote] Except that isn't a fact. The fact is that they are, were and continue to be members of MK and there has never been any doubt about that. [quote]As for taking a realistic approach, both are guilty of escalation in that the raid continued after being clearly seen as contrary to the actual legitamate government of RoK, but given the circumstance I don't see why RoK should have to pay MK for someone retaliating against a tech raider. Did you think Kaitlin was just going to ship you all of her tech and allow you to tech raid even if she was not a member of RoK? [/quote] First of all, the government is not legitimate. They might be in charge of RoK, but to be legitimate they would actually have had to be put in charge under the stipulations of the RoK charter, they weren't and therefore they are not legitimate. Secondly, RoK went against the norm by accepting a nation at war, thereby making any action she takes their responsibility. But even if we ignore that, the fact is that tech raid targets that retaliate with nuclear force are often met with conditions they have to meet before being allowed peace, so MK asking for something in return for letting Kait go, is not uncommon. It was the Adel administrations decision to grant Kait membership while she was at war and as such the responsibility is theirs. [quote]The decision to taunt and attempt to escalate the situation by those not only in MK is my evidence to appendage waving, as I'm quite sure you could not counter my argument that this situation would just as much be over if MK wanted it to end instead of looking for the chance of escalation. Something something bias something something ad-hominem. etc. [/quote] Of course it would be over if MK wanted it to be over. But the terms under which Kait/RoK wants it to be over aren't acceptable to MK and therefore it isn't over. That doesn't mean that MK doesn't want it to be over, that just means that they don't want to allow a weaker party that has wronged them to get away with it without paying for the damages caused.

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1327966421' post='2910977'] Just more evidence (not that it was really ever needed,) that MK's standards of AA sovereignty and the like do not resonate well with the standards of virtually the rest of the planet. [/quote] Since you're virtually the only one arguing that it aren't the standards of the rest of the planet, it would appear that it is the standard and that your point of view is the one not resonating well. [quote]As for your latter appoint, it would appear that that permission was granted by a government that is no longer legitimate or had no authority to do what they had done, as evidenced by their ouster as a result.[/quote] The government was legitimate at the time (no one can dispute that) and the RoK charter grants the emperor complete and total power and as such he had the authority to make the decision. [quote]One would think that this would just be peaced out if the aim wasn't to attempt to escalate or attempt to provoke Ragnarok into a fight....or wave appendages around. But that isn't the case, right? [/quote] One problem with your little theory is that Kait is the one that escalated things by nuking one of the MK members at war with her after the Adel administration had declared that she was a member of the alliance. So, unless I've been misinformed somehow, I do not see how you can claim that MK are the ones guilty of the escalation. I am sure that if the Adel administration had contacted MK prior to Kait nuking an MK member and asked them to stop the attacks they would gladly have done it. Instead they've decided to claim a nation involved in a nuclear war against MK as a member of their alliance. How is that dick-waving by MK?

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1327965326' post='2910955'] I don't see how this is relevant to the discussion of MK's omniscient (See what I did there. ) sovereignty in comparison to the rest of the world, how it flies in the face of history and how this most recent example is more or less ridiculous and mere dick-waving or a prelude to the rolling of RoK (or hoping for escelation,) something that was probably going to happen either way. But I've already repeated myself enough at this juncture. Have fun everyone. [/quote] I believe I've already shown examples of how similar things have happened in the past and regardless, what does MK members changing AA to hit MHA last war have to do with MK being given permission to strike at a ghost sitting on the RoK AA? And how is it in any way dick-waving or a prelude to rolling RoK when, as said before, they were given permission by the legitimate RoK government?