Iotupa

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1342101067' post='3009139'] I don't believe you have any effort to destroy VE, you spend far too much effort destroying the credibility of you and the alliances you lead to have any leftover for destroying us. I take it from your lack of response to four of my five points that you agree with the rest, so thank you. [/quote] Yes, I did choose to ignore the rest of your post because you are so obsessed with a part of history that I had nothing to do with that none of your posting towards me makes any sense, and the largest portion of it is baseless insults and attacks against me. Did I hurt your feelings by being able to read you like a book? I'm sorry, I truly am. We'll go ahead and run through them, though, just to make little goldielax feel better. 1) Already addressed. Clearly revisionist history or ignorance on your part. Please try again. 2) Your ally was attacked. You have an MDP. There is clearly obligation there. Honestly, I would have expected you guys to weasel out of this war by claiming non-chaining, so kudos for at least pretending to put an effort in. 3) Oh noes, I'm not talking about an alliance that has nothing to do with this thread in this thread! Whatever could be wrong with me, not wanting to take this announcement off-topic. I should be more like you, talking about things that have nothing to do with what was posted here. 4) I seem to remember, throughout history, pretty much all major coalitions remaining at war alongside their allies until all were granted peace or until their allies told them it was okay to leave. From what I can tell, you guys definitely didn't do the first thing and apparently didn't do the second, either. 5) You chose not to honor your treaty. That is clearly a dishonorable action. This is an objective fact. The only people applauding this are the other side, whom you just helped out immensely. There we go. Hope you feel better now!

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1342100158' post='3009124'] Don't mind JB, he's still butthurt over the fact that despite his best efforts while he was an Architect of the Viridicide, there is a VE around today and it was powerful enough to isolate his hilarious alliance enough so that it imploded itself in the most amusing way possible. He chooses to waste his breath criticizing VE for what we did (keep NPO almost entirely off of GOD, take a chunk out of them, and hinder their ability to make continued war on GOD) even though we had no obligation to do so (through the magic of non-chaining) and with all of our other allies strongly supporting the opposite coalition. He does this out of anger and spite, not out of rationality or objective thought, because he is far too emotional a person to be capable of such demanding mental tasks such as that. He also chooses not to criticize his primary ally in Sparta, who sits with over a hundred nations in peace mode (including their entire top tier, who by not fighting freed up IRON for us), and does nothing to defend its SF allies. He also selectively doesn't remember that his alliance signed a treaty with Sparta shortly after Sparta declared war on patsies rather than people hurting their allies, and left the war before the allies they came in to support did. He also, as part of his delusion, thinks that it has long been practice to stay in a war through its duration, no matter what, when in reality the only times that really has ever happened en masse were the times that Polar has been attacked, which was each time unfortunate because their allies have never recovered from the beatings they took in those wars, even though Polar has. I respect STA but I don't think they helped their allies in doing what they did, and they still are punished for it. We did what we had to do in this war, if people want to call it dishonorable then that is because they came in here wanting to trash on VE in the first place. The dozens of people in here are arguing this on our behalf speak volumes about that, and the handful of people we just burned for who criticize us speak volumes about themselves. [/quote] [quote][09:22] <Jonathan_Brookbank|BalMasque> lol someone got goldie's attention on that thread [09:22] <Jonathan_Brookbank|BalMasque> Here comes some million year old reference to the Emerald Affairs which I wasn't even gov of GGA to have a role in [09:22] <Jonathan_Brookbank|BalMasque> and ignorance of the fact that without myself and Sponge ZombVE would not exist [09:23] <Jonathan_Brookbank|BalMasque> I do so enjoy his posts [09:23] <Jonathan_Brookbank|BalMasque> [/quote] You are ever so predictable, goldie. I happened to like VE during the Emerald Affairs. It was a mistake of mine to not walk away from GGA when the government decided to, at the urging of our Elder Statesman, ALdbeign (the actual architect, contrary to popular belief that it was Bilrow or the ignorant belief of you that it was me), take the action that it took. At the time I was not a Triumvir, so there was literally nothing I could do to stop the attack. However, I atoned for my sins (of not walking away, since I didn't actually do any planning or have a say in whether the attack happened), by, along with Electron_Sponge, midwife'ing the new Viridian Entente into existence. Without the two of us, there would be no ZombVE today, besmirching the once good name of VE. You can continue with your ignorant tirade against me, however, as anyone with any knowledge of history continues to laugh at you as you try your absolute best (which, while I'm proud of your effort, is incredibly lacking in any actual effect) to make this out to be some sort of longstanding effort of mine to destroy ZombVE. It is unfortunate that Egore was called away to another world, as he was a far more intelligent and quality leader than you could ever hope to be.

[quote name='hornguard' timestamp='1342099751' post='3009119'] And I'm sure Xiph would be more than happy to grouse about it here, or did he leave it to you to announce the treachery and deceit of Viridians? [/quote] I don't talk to Xiph much, as he and I historically don't get along. I don't think the treachery and deceit actually comes from most Viridians. I like the general membership. It is the actions of the leadership that are at fault here.

[quote name='hornguard' timestamp='1342099579' post='3009115'] And if you had any sense in tactics, you should be sending a full attack on those we just peaced with because they have been weakened considerably, instead of sitting here pissing and moaning that we just delivered a sizable amount of carnage across all tiers. [/quote] Uh, no. That's not how war works on this planet. Nice attempt at a deflection away from my point that you are not honoring your treaty, however. Had it been someone else, it likely would have worked.

[quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1342099474' post='3009114'] I am fairly sure there is not a clause in VE's treaty that bound them to optionally defend GOD and to follow whatever idiotic strategy. The terms of VE entering sound like something GOD should have worked with VE before they entered, not !@#$%*ed about in the OWF after they lost 50% of their NS. [/quote] They did try to work out terms with ZombVE before they entered. ZombVE chose to ignore GOD and go off on their own.

[quote name='hornguard' timestamp='1342099242' post='3009110'] VE doesn't need Peace Mode. That's what warchests are for. [/quote] Yeah, apparently you do need peace mode, or else you would still be defending your ally and honoring your treaty. As it stands, you're currently abandoning them.

Honestly, the headlong rush at the enemy only to peace out nearly immediately reminds me a lot of the actions of TPF during the Unjust War, where they came to the [b]~[/b] coalition the very first day and negotiated a way out of the war, which was something to the tune of lose X amount of NS and we will give you peace. It seems likely ZombVE had a similar deal, or else they would have used some strategy in their defense of GOD. Perhaps that is the entire reason they did not use the commonly accepted and currently being used by both sides strategy of placing nations in peace mode...

[quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1342098464' post='3009102'] It making sense or not to you is not my problem. It's simple. There's nothing wrong with using Peace Mode as a tactic. There's something wrong with letting your ally who came in to defend you to take all the damage by using Peace Mode as a tactic. If it makes it clear for you: It's not wrong to run away to dodge aggression on you but it's absolutely wrong when your friend throws himself in front of you to defend you and you just keep running. [/quote] I will repeat myself once again, since you seem to be missing the point. ZombVE CHOSE to ignore any semblance of strategy in their headlong rush at the New Pacific Order. That was not GOD's decision. Ignorance of war strategy or choice to not use it in order to make this clearly politically motivated move on the part of ZombVE is 100% the actions of ZombVE. There is not a clause, to my knowledge, that states that ZombVE gets to ignore the honoring of a treaty by bailing on GOD simply because GOD knows how to use strategy and ZombVE doesn't.

Also, for what it's worth, I don't have a horse in this race. I enjoyed watching ZombVE burn and don't particularly mind watching the same happen to GOD, as neither alliance has shown me much love. It has been an unfortunate circumstance that I have been forced onto this side by the actions of Non Grata. I am simply commenting on the nature of the actions, which are objectively dishonorable. This is not a matter of opinion. As a note, my opinions on GOD/ZombVE are not those of my alliance, blah blah, yada yada.

[quote name='Neo Uruk' timestamp='1342097820' post='3009093'] GOD isn't declaring enough wars to deserve VE's presence on their behalf is what he's saying. VE's throwing their entire alliance in the fire for someone who isn't willing to fight for themselves. [/quote] Is there a clause somewhere in the treaty that states that both alliances should throw out conventional war tactics or else the treaty is null and void? Because ZombVE chose to fight in a manner inconsistent with Planet Bob strategy does not mean that GOD should do the same. In the face of insurmountable odds, the strategy is to put nations in peace mode. [quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1342097902' post='3009094'] Peace mode is the issue in this situation, not as a tactic in abstract. In this concrete situation, adopting the Peace mode tactic had as consequence that VE to lose half its NS and most its upper tier fighting alone a fight they joined to defend GOD. Adopting the peace mode tactic while VE was getting smashed for them was dishonourable from GOD, not the tactic itself. [/quote] It both is and isn't the issue? That makes absolutely no sense, no offense. As far as GOD adopting the strategy, they were using it when ZombVE entered the war. As I stated above, because ZombVE chose to fight with no strategy does not mean that they get to ignore the honoring of their treaty.

[quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1342097516' post='3009087'] I don't really care whether Peace Mode is used or not. That's irrelevant and a tactic. The point here is that you call out VE for being dishonourable for leaving the battlefield earlier than GOD when GOD actually never joined the said battlefield VE fought on because of their tactic. [/quote] Okay, so if peace mode isn't the issue here, then there is currently not a single war between GOD and NPO? That's what you're saying here. Seems to me that's probably a false statement on your part. EDIT: You (both you yourself and your coalition) should also try to work on some consistency. You swap back and forth between peace mode being the issue here and peace mode not being the issue.

[quote name='Dom Zak' timestamp='1342096782' post='3009076'] That is true, IRON has taken significant damge in wars past (just look at Bipolar) however in my statement you quoted I was more or less talking about GODs reaction to their surrender in this threads by saying that VE has become less of an asset to them and betrayed them in some way. Yes, i understand that they could have lasted more rounds but like VE said, it took some pressure off of GOD and GOD is going to need one of their allies to pump them aid after this probably, and by the look of VE's top tier warchests, it looks like it could be them. That's another good thing I can say about VE, nice warchest [/quote] They did betray GOD, by leaving the battlefield prior to GOD receiving peace. That is a betrayal of the treaty they signed with GOD. As far as post-war aid, I honestly doubt ZombVE intends to hold this treaty for much longer. They've shown where their true allegiance falls. [quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1342096852' post='3009080'] Then what should we call to GOD who stayed in Peace Mode while VE was actually fighting for them? Honour goes both directions and GOD failed to prove itself deserving of the selfless ally VE showed itself to be. If GOD is not fighting, VE shouldn't either. [/quote] The idea that so many on your side continue to push this peace mode "issue" is humorous at best (assuming you know you're attempting to blow smoke up everyone's backside) and ignorant at worst (if you are honestly unaware of the true happenings). Your side has used and continues to use the same exact tactic in war. It is an extremely common tactic that has been used for years on Planet Bob. As far as GOD "not fighting," it looks to me like they are still fighting and at war with numerous alliances, including the one that their so-called "ally" just got peace with.

[quote name='Dom Zak' timestamp='1342096327' post='3009070'] Well at the rate that VE was going, I wouldn't be surprised if a couple more rounds damaged them to a point where they would need extensive rebuilding and therefore would be less of an asset to GOD. If my ally gave 50% of their strength for me but got hit pretty hard, I would still thank them for taking the pressure off of me and say GL with rebuilding however I wouldn't pull what GOD is pulling here. From what I am reading, it looks like GOD is sad it lost a meatshield in this war... [/quote] Yes, but extensive rebuilding is often the case after a war. One does not sign a treaty that involves mutual defense, especially with an alliance as controversial as GOD has been for much of its existence, without the knowledge that it would likely put one in a bad position in a war. You don't get to simply stop honoring your treaty because of the damage you have taken.

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1342095847' post='3009067'] Intentions such as honoring their treaty in the face of insurmountable odds? [/quote] One does not honor a treaty by leaving the battlefield without your ally. Planet Bob has long regarded this as a dishonorable tactic. The honorable thing to do would be to remain at war until you can leave alongside your ally. ZombVE clearly had no intention of actually doing this, or else they would still be at war.

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1342095147' post='3009060'] The SF tears are delicious. "ablo ablo ablo, VE lost half of their NS in the conflict while we rot in peace mode, what a TERRIBLE ALLY". [/quote] While some people from SF are crying, there are others (including non SF folks) that recognized from the very beginning what ZombVE's intentions were here. This thread has only served to prove us right.

Abandoning allies on the field of battle is one way to not honor a treaty, I suppose. You would have been better off just cancelling it up front.

How completely uninteresting my comment is.

This, honestly, is the best news I've heard in quite some time. Welcome back, old friends.

Congratulations.

Good luck in CoJ, Nintenderek.

Been waiting for this one. Do well.

Though Moo and I had our differences in character, I always found him to be one of the more genuine people outside of the game. He will be missed. RIP

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1341529074' post='3004265'] This is a quality thread guaranteed to encourage thoughtful discourse and generate a useful conclusion to a question on the minds of all. [/quote] I haven't agreed with Ardus in years, what the $%&@ have you done here, supercoolyellow?

Goodbye, old friend. May you fare well in life and all of your pursuits.

A wise move.