Old Man Chron

[TehChron]

Edit: This is something that's been bothering me for a long while. Including the period of my...vacation. There's a tl;dr at the bottom that cuts to the chase, sans examples...For those who cant be bothered to read it all immediately.

I was elated to return to this game, this community, after my extended absence. The joy and elation I felt at being able to come back and see old friends and acquaintances, see that I was still remembered after all this time, was truly heartwarming. Sponge, Doitzel, Starfox, Rebel Virginia, heck, even a certain banned person who was rebanned before even posting again and various Pacificans recalled me from back in the day. Im not trying to toot my own horn, I am just honestly glad to have not been forgotten.

Honestly, and I wont lie, I came back in no small part due to the eruption of the Karma War, out of a sort of morbid curiosity at witnessing the only way the NPO being successfully beaten occurring…Namely the diplomatic corps dropping the ball heavily, and some kind of echo chamber mentality allowing folks in charge make an utterly reckless declaration without taking into account the actual distribution of NS.

Sadly…I was disappointed in what had happened to my old home. Really. Like an Old Man who returns to the nice, picket fency-neighborhood he grew up in to witness it having turned into some kind of needle-addled cesspool ghetto. Of course, that was only when I had scratched the surface. My guesstimates were more or less correct, but the sheer scale of deterioration shocked, and then enraged me. Of course, I may have been removed from the game, but I was not willing to sit back and allow myself to fade out of the community I had just rejoined due to my own sheer ignorance of the forum rules. And it was ignorance, and foolishness, both things I have in the past mocked others for, and encourage others to follow that example.

Which brings me to the main point of this Thread. While many of you may have already come to the conclusion that this is another one of those “why the Karma war (Insert nonsense here)…” That is not the case. I am here to comment on one thing that utterly infuriates me on a personal level, and that is seeing how utterly far the political conversation has fallen on these Open World Forums. To be frank, I am an Old Guard Pacifican. I may not have been on the same Level as the Moldavi’s or Sponge’s of the NPO, but I was around, I know those guys better than most of you, and I remember the glorious days of that alliance under Ivan Moldavi’s leadership. And believe you me, we Old Guard folks were some pretty badass dudes back in the day. We, after all, were the ones that made the legend of Pacifica that’s been carried around and caricatured over the years. Us. Many of my comrades have left the Order for a multitude of reasons, which are largely irrelevant here, but we made the Order what it was, and we also are the ones that instilled fear in the hearts of Pacifica’s enemies. It’s a legacy that has lived on to this day through careful mismanagement, and one of it’s few benefits was stifling the “debate” I bemoaned earlier. I say it in such a way because it is simply a series of “no u” arguments attempting to masquerade itself as debate. With some it’s done skillfully, and it is the example of those cases that arouse my greatest ire over the quality of discussion on the OWF falling.

Listen, this isn’t some kind of random venting. It’s a serious condition affecting the Open World Forum. We have folks right and left using deception, shameless hypocrisy, and basically manipulative and bullying “debate” tactics in order to try and make themselves appear to win arguments and look good. It lowers the standards of the OWF, and needs to stop. I’m fed up with it…And it’s not just one or two people, it’s systematic, and it happened during the NPO’s reign, and is continuing now. Only I wasn’t around for that, so like hell I have an excuse to let this time slip by. If you’re going to debate, debate honestly, if you’re not going to debate honestly, don’t debate at all, or be open about your intentions. And that goes to everyone practicing that. Every single one, and there are a lot of folks who both participate in, and encourage these kinds of actions…But some are significantly more brazen about it than others.

That being said, among the most egregious offenders of my own sense of good taste in debating is one Bob Janova. Posting hypocrisy, distortion, and outright lies again and again, he is truly a skilled arguer. However, presenting this style of posting as actual debate is highly misleading, due to the blatant lack of any integrity in the posted statements. Here are some examples;

I would say those terms are high. But the reasoning (apart from the 'recovery' of 10,000 MK tech) is twofold:

- as members of One Vision, Echelon shares responsibility for 1V's aggressive actions and enforcement of monopolarity

- having stayed in the war so long, they have done a lot of damage to the alliances fighting them

Personally I'd say that they've always been a craven follower of an alliance (as well as a cut-and-run alliance in the past) and assigning responsibility to them is giving them too much credit.

Here our good friend Bob points out his feelings on the qualifications of how guilt is assigned to alliances involved in the Hegemony’s Pax Pacifica. Perfectly reasonable, after all, CoC-esque alliances are hardly worth the effort and time to force out large reps. After all, they were really too inconsequential to be all that involved anyway. At least, that’s his view. So by that logic, shouldn’t the larger and more important players of One Vision therefore logically also play a larger role in the oppression, and by extension, be more to blame?

This treaty has caused me several headaches in the past, but I know how much it meant to TOP. The fact that you have driven TOP to drop you, NPO, should be some indication of the level of affront your actions caused.

This is the right decision, classily done – not that I would expect any less from TOP.

Well, they *are* a classy alliance, after all. Clearly one of the NPO’s stuanchest allies over the past two years dropping the NPO now when they’re no longer of consequence is evidence of just how horrible the NPO’s reign of terror was while TOP was actually involved in it.

Most of the hatred for Pacifica comes from the parts of history you have not yet had time to catch up with – it is largely understandable. Karma has trodden carefull with respect to most alliances in the conflict; the NPO is being treated differently for a reason. Considering how few surrenders there were before the terms thread, or even Jipps' (fairly silly) thread, I don't think it made much difference.

So….Yeah. Huh. Well, at least you admit that the NPO’s being treated differently for a *reason*, although that implied reason applies very well to many other alliances not being dealt harsh reps. Or, for that matter, are referenced in the above quote. But hey, who am I to judge? Perhaps I don’t see the whole “picture”, as it were. And someone who’s as privileged as Bob Janova would have a better insight as to the distinguishments than I would?

If you're going to resurrect an alliance with the same name, with many of the same people, you can't expect the history of the alliance you resurrect to be forgotten.

The true test will be if you gain power, and how you choose to use it then. It is very easy to be contrite and peace-loving when you have no power to go after anyone. The aggressive history of Nordreich as a part of the Initiative, or of Norden Verein under the protection of the NPO, is not so easily forgotten.

Wait…So…What? How the hell is a reroll of an alliance that disbanded that in name *used* to serve under the NPO any worse than an alliance that directly aided and abetted the NPO and survives to this day living off the fruits of that relationship?

Fixed, for the essential truth about why NPO is getting harsh terms. They already took their second chance and took over the world again.

Ooooh! Now it all makes sense, it’s all about second CHANCES. And clearly the NPO blew theirs back in 2006. Yeah, I remember fighting gramlins back in the day…Good…Wait. No I didn’t. Were you even *playing this game* back then, Bob? And what do you know about the circumstances? If you knew what was going on at all, you’d have already known that leaving the Orders off with a bloody lip was because the CoaLUEtion felt that the NPO was no longer a threat. There was no mercy involved at all, the CoaLUEtion just collectively, and naivelly, assumed that they’d be able to beat down any attempts the Orders made to take us down had we risen again. Hell, I’m sure Archon has logs of those conversations, possibly AirMe too, but I don’t think he was high enough up back then.

There was no “second chances” given, it was about the CoaLUEtion deciding that the Orders werent worth the effort of the beatdown anymore after Legion withdrew. Of course, after most of the CoaLUEtion betrayed the NPO to begin with after expressly telling Ivan personally they would help beat down on LUE. Well, I guess someone finally realized that the only certain way to beat the NPO is to get most of their allies to stab them in the back. Which was…Wait. No.

Second chance my rusty Gauntlet. You don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. Clearly you’re just making things up again as you go along. Well, anything to support your unshakable moral foundations, right?

How could you do that by our side, while we were so aggressive and despotic and whatnot? You should have disowned us two years ago then and fight the good fight then. Right?

Well, we did enter GW3. After that we realised that fighting the good fight is pointless if you will lose (as anyone attacking the hegemony will always do), and then we got close with TOP who convinced us that you aren't so bad after all, and then we didn't even want to fight you any more. (And if you notice, we haven't fought you now, either.)

Yep. Incitement is totally not attacking. I agree completely.

Now then, as an Old Guard Pacifican, and one fairly high up the food chain at that before my nonsensical ouster, I was privy to a lot of discussions, and I will not claim to be some kind of hippy moralist. I’m not. I have my lines that I draw, and I can and will stand by them. I supported the Green Civil War. Why? Because VE and CIS annoyed the hell out of me, and I thought “Well, why not?” It ultimately was fun to watch the nincompoops in charge of those alliances fall so blatantly. For those of us around at the time, I don’t think anyone will deny the hilarity of them thinking they were safe from taking potshots at the core alliances of the Initiative just because they had signed treaties with us.

I’m sure Citadel knows the feeling, right Jenova?

Ah yes…Jenova, I almost forgot (not really), about your citing of the various “tragedies” that occurred to alliances that disbanded, I feel that I absolutely *must* remind you that no one forced those communities to disband or leave. This is a game, and the slain victims of the Continuum (and it was the Continuum, you don’t get to wash your hands off just because you’ve come up with a new blanket label, kids) decided they werent having fun anymore. And thus left. There’s nothing wrong with that.

Acting indignant and pissy and vengeful just because you lacked the strength of character to tough it out doesn’t change the fact that you guys were too wake to stand up for yourselves. I didn’t quit after just returning because of a few rules violations. I toughed it out, and participated how I could. FAN has too. So will the NPO, no matter what you do.

Their community exists beyond a place where you can touch them. So quit trying. Revenge is all fine and dandy, but don’t dress it up as some blatantly hypocritical “Justice” or else TOP and Valhalla and GGA would be in the same boat as the NPO. Them being the ring leader is one thing, as is making an example out of them. So be honest about it.

No one would deny you your lump of meat, but the fact that the large lot of you, *especially* folks who have no business talking out of both sides of their mouth and arent even dirtying their hands, are calling for blood based on some foolish idealogical bent is frankly aggravating as hell to me. You’re all lying. Blatantly, obviously. Janova is just one example…And I doubt he’s even trying to bother hiding it.

The OWF is full of Bob Janova’s, and you want to know what Chron called Bob Janova back in the day? TheBlitz. Andaras…or whatever his name was. Prodigal_Chieftain. And you know what I did to them? What the REAL Pacificans did to them? We dragged them out into the open for their posturing, and hung them out for everyone to see them as they really were. And mocked them.

Well, guess what? I can, and I will. And as a member of FAIL I call upon *all* CN players who are annoyed as heck with the posturing and the preening on this forum to join me, and the rest of our League, as we dress down and destroy this culture of spin and empty rhetoric. Know me sign, and know fear. Chron is back, and when you see my Gauntlet’s Spiked digit, you’ll know you’re screwed.

Tl;dr: I really wish I didn’t have to use one of these, as it kinda flies in the face of posting such a long thing…But it’s ultimately necessary, since so many folks are secure in their belief that the only argument worth reading is a short one. Even if it’s a blatant lie. I may have been banned, but that was my own fault. Im back, better than ever. I hereby serve notice; I will brook no spin, no disingenuity, no falsifying, no strawmen, and no attention whoring. My Gauntlet is my sign, and it is a sign of war. You may not who the hell I am, but I don’t care, for you will soon. I will be coming for whatever I feel deserves coming at. And I frankly don’t care what side of the treaty web you’re on. Fake debating will be called out. Respect.

-Chron,

Former High General of the New Pacific Order, Fourth Triumvirate of the Federated Allied Independence League, Sith Master of The Dark Side…Media, Former CN Master of Burning-While-Talking Fist-Style-Ken, and Honorary Member of Rebel Virginia’s Emo Hunters (Coming next season to Discovery Channel)…Oh, and Owner of The Spiked Gauntlet of the Sith.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Chron

[TailsK]

Short version please, too much to read...

[TehChron]

Short version please, too much to read...

Check the bottom, I included a tl;dr.

[Lord Boris]

Good policy in the tl;dr, I guess. Cutting through crap requires one hell of a chainsaw these days, though.

[TehChron]

Good policy in the tl;dr, I guess. Cutting through crap requires one hell of a chainsaw these days, though.

Anyone who remembers me back from 06 knows I am that.

[lebubu]

Cool story bro.

[TehChron]

Cool story bro.

I know, right?

[Sal Paradise]

So is this Bob Janova call-out thread?

[Matthew Conrad]

I actually find Bob Janova one of the most agreeable (in terms of how he debates, and I say this about people I disagree with) and respectful posters on these boards. I find this thread's attention to him specifically an unnecessary and disrespectful move. You could have found a dozen other quotes to support your plea, but it seems to me your personal perspective gets in the way of your own idea. I can support cutting spin/crap, but I won't support trying to publicly slander someone who is a credit to the CN community.

[Incitatus]

Good read. I skimmed through the second half because I saw what you were going for. I completely agree with you. Also it's good to see you around.

[TehChron]

So is this Bob Janova call-out thread?

Nope.

But it takes less time to go through one persons posting history than several, and frankly speaking...Im incredibly lazy.

actually find Bob Janova one of the most agreeable (in terms of how he debates, and I say this about people I disagree with) and respectful posters on these boards. I find this thread's attention to him specifically an unnecessary and disrespectful move. You could have found a dozen other quotes to support your plea, but it seems to me your personal perspective gets in the way of your own idea. I can support cutting spin/crap, but I won't support trying to publicly slander someone who is a credit to the CN community.

His words. Directly quoted. Slander is a blatant mislabeling. Nor was I asking for your support specifically.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Chron

[RandomInterrupt]

The funny thing is, Bob Janova is not even close to the worst offender of that sort of posting. At least in my opinion. If you want better examples, look at Bob Sanders, Chairman Hal, and my personal favorite, Bigwoody. Some of these guys don't even try to tell the truth. They just think of something that would sound good and support their argument. Whether it actually happened or not isn't something they worry about.

[TehChron]

The funny thing is, Bob Janova is not even close to the worst offender of that sort of posting. At least in my opinion. If you want better examples, look at Bob Sanders, Chairman Hal, and my personal favorite, Bigwoody. Some of these guys don't even try to tell the truth. They just think of something that would sound good and support their argument. Whether it actually happened or not isn't something they worry about.

Being blatant isn't the measuring stick I use in terms of "worst" offenders...Rather, my measuring stick is in their competence in doing so. Because when its blatant it's not successful, and when it isnt blatant, it is successful, and therefore is far more damaging to the dialogue.

Edit: clarity

Edited June 28, 2009 by Chron

[Bob Janova]

I am honoured to be the subject of such a thread. This post is such a mash-up of IC and OOC that I can't really address it, other than to say that your singling out of me is almost certainly due to IC reasons which I can't really respond to here.

The fact is, I find arguing fun, and doing so without lying even more fun. It is rare for a post of mine to contain a lie (maybe if I'm asked a direct question about tomorrow's military operation). I am pleased that you care enough about my posts to analyse them in such detail, but I think you have a personal bias that is colouring your view of the way I play.

[Matthew Conrad]

Nope.

But it takes less time to go through one persons posting history than several, and frankly speaking...Im incredibly lazy.

His words. Directly quoted. Slander is a blatant mislabeling. Nor was I asking for your support specifically.

A plea posted in public generally asks for the public's support. I'm a part of the public. If you wanted everyone who didn't agree with you to not say anything, you should have probably put this in front of a group of friends then. As is, I have no illusion that you wanted my support. I'm merely stating my opinion.

[New Frontier]

I am honoured to be the subject of such a thread. This post is such a mash-up of IC and OOC that I can't really address it, other than to say that your singling out of me is almost certainly due to IC reasons which I can't really respond to here.

The fact is, I find arguing fun, and doing so without lying even more fun. It is rare for a post of mine to contain a lie (maybe if I'm asked a direct question about tomorrow's military operation). I am pleased that you care enough about my posts to analyse them in such detail, but I think you have a personal bias that is colouring your view of the way I play.

tl;dr: This has IC and OOC in the same post, therefore, it is completely wrong.

Well played Bob.

[Infinite Narwhal]

It's called propaganda. Karma is not going to point out any distortions they may post, for you. That is not their job. It is the coalition's job and the coalition is falling flat on it's face. Where is the coalition's propaganda team?

Edited June 28, 2009 by Infinite Narwhal

[TehChron]

A plea posted in public generally asks for the public's support. I'm a part of the public. If you wanted everyone who didn't agree with you to not say anything, you should have probably put this in front of a group of friends then. As is, I have no illusion that you wanted my support. I'm merely stating my opinion.

I didn't ask you to not post. Please cease and desist with the mislabeling, as it's something I really feel is the whole point of the gigantic OP.

I am honoured to be the subject of such a thread. This post is such a mash-up of IC and OOC that I can't really address it, other than to say that your singling out of me is almost certainly due to IC reasons which I can't really respond to here.

Oh no, feel free. This subject is an entirely OOC one, and considering your quoted statements are ones made by you, and are thus in essence, the entire point of the thread. Which is the creation and propagation of those types of posts.

As for my reasons? What on earth are they, as I really dont know who you are...Nor, for that matter, why I should hold a grudge against you.

The fact is, I find arguing fun, and doing so without lying even more fun. It is rare for a post of mine to contain a lie (maybe if I'm asked a direct question about tomorrow's military operation). I am pleased that you care enough about my posts to analyse them in such detail, but I think you have a personal bias that is colouring your view of the way I play.

My bias is that I view your playing style as damaging to the community as the Continuum's tyrannical reign. And one I point out is not unique to you on several occasions.

It's called propaganda. Karma is not going to point out any distortions they may post, for you. That is not their job. It is the coalition's job and the coalition is falling flat on it's face. Where is the coalition's propaganda team?

Not a matter of sides.

All I can say is that clearly you missed the point.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Chron

[Bob Janova]

This subject is an entirely OOC one

No it isn't, because most of the quotes are from IC threads (or ones posted here that are effectively IC, like the Echelon one), and the arguments you make against me are all IC, even if you did post it here. Also, to respond to all your points would make the thread about me, which you are claiming is not the intention. Finally, it's coming up to 3am and I need sleep.

To briefly respond to what I see as the main point though, hypocrisy, deceit and outright lies have always been part of the AP/AA forum, usually largely from the group in charge at the time. There isn't a group in charge right now and the forums are more interesting than for a long time. I see good arguments going on for the first time since GW2. I don't really see what there is to complain about.

[Sal Paradise]

Nope.

But it takes less time to go through one persons posting history than several, and frankly speaking...Im incredibly lazy.

So this isn't a call out thread specifically directed at Bob Janova, but still a thread advocating the calling out and public mocking of people like Bob Janova. Technically then, if we decide to take up your cause, a Bob Janova call out thread is possible in the future?

I'm all for the elevation of debate around here. Here is my contribution:

http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/blatant

Edited June 28, 2009 by Sal Paradise

[TehChron]

No it isn't, because most of the quotes are from IC threads (or ones posted here that are effectively IC, like the Echelon one), and the arguments you make against me are all IC, even if you did post it here. Also, to respond to all your points would make the thread about me, which you are claiming is not the intention. Finally, it's coming up to 3am and I need sleep.

I used you as an example, and one with readily available evidence to utilize. Even moreso, since the subject of the OP is regarding the OOC decision making and actions taken by the players, the subject is inherently OOC. If you think that pointing out how my quantitative analysis of your posts somehow makes the thread about you, rather than encouraging this "good debate" you represent, then I suppose that's a difference of opinion.

My complaint is not limited to the present, but to the practice in general. Period. The fact that it is not a recent phenomenon simply is irrelevant.

So this isn't a call out thread specifically directed at Bob Janova, but still a thread advocating the calling out and public mocking of people like Bob Janova. Technically then, if we decide to take up your cause, a Bob Janova call out thread is possible in the future?

Janova is used as an example of the points made in the OP...Not the actual point. I really can't see how you can honestly say that with a straight face...Hasty Generalization is fail.

[Sal Paradise]

Janova is used as an example of the points made in the OP...Not the actual point. I really can't see how you can honestly say that with a straight face...Hasty Generalization is fail.

You may never know how I can say that with a straight face because I obviously blatantly didn't say that.

[TehChron]

You may never know how I can say that with a straight face because I obviously blatantly didn't say that.

Trying to use a dictionary definition through inference isn't actually debating. It's actually more of a half-hearted attempt at Appeal to Authority.

I'm really not going to fall for that trick, so unless you plan on expanding on that claim, then I'll be happy to not rise.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Chron

[Sal Paradise]

Trying to use a dictionary definition through inference isn't actually debating. It's actually more of a half-hearted attempt at Appeal to Authority.

It wasn't a dictionary definition; it was a list of synonyms. And I wasn't using it to debate. I was, as I stated, using it to improve the level of discourse here by providing the users of this forum with more ways to expressing blatancy. Something they seemed to be having a hard time doing. Given your stated goals of elevating debate around here, I thought you would have appreciated my efforts.

I'm really not going to fall for that trick, so unless you plan on expanding on that claim, then I'll be happy to not rise.

What trick? When I said that I hadn't said what you accused me of saying? Perhaps I misread your post. You should have stated it more... conspicuously.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Sal Paradise

[Nick1a]

And believe you me, we Old Guard folks were some pretty badass dudes back in the day.

I thought this was an OOC post?

But this whole thread seems a lot like a personal attack dressed up as a call for change. Funny that you should mention class in your post....