A Statement from Doomhouse

[Baldr]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300524659' post='2670058']
Because we don't want them to succeed in avoiding war by keeping significant portions of their alliance in PM. It would be a victory for it, essentially.
[/quote]

Your claim is that you attacked them to keep them from being involved in the war.

Obviously, though, that isn't true if your goal, as stated here, is to make sure that they are involved in the war.

[Baldr]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300524452' post='2670055']
They weren't involved in negotiating them, which is what you were implying. Let's say I charge NPO reps and say "Have it sent to Baldr," and you take them, it doesn't mean you made NPO send you reps.[/quote]

If I accepted those reps, I damn sure wouldn't be lying about how I wasn't involved.

Especially if I had signed the agreement.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Baldr

[Lusitan]

[quote name='Jaiar' timestamp='1300484195' post='2669384']
Our top nations will collect less money sure, but the -14 happiness / -28 income is offset by 3 wonders (Internet, Great Temple, and Great Monument). Our top nations have those. So yeah, they will collect less money every collection but they are by no means having "negative" collections like some people seem to be implying.

You'll have to come up with better arguments. My nation has 5 wars, but effectively my alliance is at peace. You can ZI and ZT my nation and take all the land and every cent. That's all you will take. Do you understand? You can't win.
[/quote]

Your top nations cannot do tech deals and cannot send out aid to your smaller ranks. We're sitting comfortably sending out aid and doing tech deals. Don't fool yourself, we're winning.

You can end this up simple and quickly in an absurdly easy way by fighting 1 month of war with no additional reparations. It would good for us (you wouldn't be a threat anymore), it would be good for you (you get out of this mess and you probably can rebuild decently with warchests) and it would be good for Planet Bob in general because we wouldn't be drawn out to a long period of peace terms that freeze the game.

It's in your hands.

[Feldheim C]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1300524114' post='2670052']
*Chuckles* No, not due to your contesting my logic. Due to your "bullying".. your acts of aggression without cause or reason, simply to cause trouble with a "weaker" peer to settle your own boredom.
[/quote]
Oh, you are referring to my coalition not myself as a person. See, I was confused because I was using "You" in referring to you as an individual, not your alliance or coalition. I personally do not tend to do things without reason, and yes, following orders is a valid reason to me.

[Monster]

[quote name='Baldr' timestamp='1300524823' post='2670059']
Your claim is that you attacked them to keep them from being involved in the war.

Obviously, though, that isn't true if your goal, as stated here, is to make sure that they are involved in the war.
[/quote]

We attacked them to eliminate their offensive capacity and ability to affect other fronts not "keep them from getting involved" and ultimately, we have reason not to want to let a major player keep a lot of its fighting strength in tact. It wouldn't make sense. It's not a secret that the alliances involve don't have a good relationship with NPO and it's not like we would be good friends if we had just given them peace after the VE-Polar war.

[Baldr]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300525192' post='2670063']
We attacked them to eliminate their offensive capacity and ability to affect other fronts [/quote]

And that has been accomplished.

But you clearly don't consider that enough.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1300524999' post='2670061']
Your top nations cannot do tech deals and cannot send out aid to your smaller ranks. We're sitting comfortably sending out aid and doing tech deals. Don't fool yourself, we're winning.

You can end this up simple and quickly in an absurdly easy way by fighting 1 month of war with no additional reparations. It would good for us (you wouldn't be a threat anymore), it would be good for you (you get out of this mess and you probably can rebuild decently with warchests) and it would be good for Planet Bob in general because we wouldn't be drawn out to a long period of peace terms that freeze the game.

It's in your hands.
[/quote]

I understand your cost-benefit analysis, but why do you seem to imply as if we're causing all these meta-problems such as long periods of peace or what-not. We did not start this war; you did. It's not as if we gave you provocation to do so.

Also, while your analysis works on paper, it makes no sense to us. Demanding us just about anything and expecting us to acquiesce to them is absurd. Then imposing terms and reparations on our allies makes it even more absurd. Especially given the context of how this all started. So no, your little analysis is rendered moot.

[Dagrr]

[quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1300524999' post='2670061']
You can end this up simple and quickly in an absurdly easy way by fighting 1 month of war with no additional reparations. It would good for us (you wouldn't be a threat anymore), it would be good for you (you get out of this mess and you probably can rebuild decently with warchests) and it would be good for Planet Bob in general because we wouldn't be drawn out to a long period of peace terms that freeze the game.
[/quote]

You're probably aware that the ~no reps~ offer only applies to the NPO. GOONS want reps. The whole "lets give NPO white peace and then take 2 billion in reps from their friends" smoke and mirrors routine isn't working. I'm pretty fond of those friends myself, so I'm pretty supportive of telling DoomHouse to $%&@ off.

Plus I don't like your side's implied threat of "don't you dare grow too fast or ally with people we don't like" hanging permanently over my head.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Henry

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Feldheim C' timestamp='1300525007' post='2670062']
Oh, you are referring to my coalition not myself as a person. See, I was confused because I was using "You" in referring to you as an individual, not your alliance or coalition. I personally do not tend to do things without reason, and yes, following orders is a valid reason to me.
[/quote]

A braver act would be to follow orders that do not endorse unjustified aggression.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300525192' post='2670063']
We attacked them to eliminate their offensive capacity and ability to affect other fronts not "keep them from getting involved" and ultimately, we have reason not to want to let a major player keep a lot of its fighting strength in tact. It wouldn't make sense. It's not a secret that the alliances involve don't have a good relationship with NPO and it's not like we would be good friends if we had just given them peace after the VE-Polar war.
[/quote]


Let me rephrase this for you, "We were jealous NPO was going to get out of this unscathed so we dragged them into it by force. We were also terrified of what they would become if we left them untouched. We were afraid and paranoid of those that showed no apparent sign of being a threat to us at the time becoming dominant in the not to distant future as we expended our resources, and as they peacefully grew."

If you had any gumption, you'd just say it as you mean it.

You seem to have some pretty grandiose ideas thinking we would accept peace without conditions after you attack us without cause. We will war til our sovereignty is no longer threatened. You owe us at least 9 million nation strength worth in aid for destroying our peaceful, hard earned, growth for your pointless conflict. At a minimum, 36,000 tech.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Sir Humphrey]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300523943' post='2670050']
All I'm doing is giving our perspective on the matter and the rationale for attacking NPO. If you don't think that was enough to go on, that's one thing, but the usual thing has been to state that NPO wasn't coming in or that DH didn't think that NPO was coming in.

People won't see that hitting NPO preemptively was needed especially if they're allied to NPO or if they don't examine the pre-war context leading up to VE-Polaris, in which the NPO and its allies were actively moving in that direction and enough ties were established to make it a reasonable assumption.
[/quote]
I'll grant that your public justification for this war is more substantial than I initially gave you credit for, though I think the initial DoW failed to prosecute the case. However, preemption seems to be very much a legal argument, and I genuinely believe you made a mistake in not waiting for clear evidence of NPO's actual intentions. Of course, my opinion matters little, and even less because of my AA as you point out. In the end, I guess it depends on what the wider community considers to constitute sufficient justification for preemption.

Alternatively, if you simply stated that you attacked NPO for the heck of it (as the initial DoW and MK posters appeared to suggest), then I'll leave it to others to debate exactly how evil that makes you.

[Feldheim C]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1300526377' post='2670068']
A braver act would be to follow orders that do not endorse unjustified aggression.
[/quote]
That literally means nothing, unless you're trying to say that I should have not accepted any of the orders given to me. I personally believe that the actions of my alliance and by extension were fully justified and I support them. I would not have been brave if I lied to my superiors and told them I didn't agree, because I did and I do still. all of my time in this conflict has been justified and you are not the one to tell me otherwise without a damn good argument.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Feldheim C

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1300526530' post='2670070']

You seem to have some pretty grandiose ideas thinking we would accept peace without conditions after you attack us without cause.
[/quote]

And you seem to be woefully diluted if you think you will have the option to dictate otherwise. Though, believe it or not, I think your leadership is much more intelligent then that, so I'm guessing your sentiment is more just a rank and file one. Whatever hope and prayer one in a million chance you may have had of coming out on top at the start of this realistically died a few weeks ago. Time to face the facts, and adjust views accordingly.




Also, there have been absolutely no new developments here, and pretty much everyone in this thread, on all sides, have been saying the same things now for about 50 pages. You should all be ashamed, I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your souls.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Il Impero Romano

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Feldheim C' timestamp='1300526862' post='2670072']
That literally means nothing, unless you're trying to say that I should have not accepted any of the orders given to me. I personally believe that the actions of my alliance and by extension were fully justified and I support them. I would not have been brave if I lied to my superiors and told them I didn't agree, because I did and I do still. all of my time in this conflict has been justified and you are not the one to tell me otherwise without a damn good argument.
[/quote]

Sure. Your aggression was unjustified. There's the damn good argument. You're the one who has the burden of proof on him to prove the conflict was justified.. so.. I'm awaiting to hear your justification for assaulting an alliance who had not interfered in practically anyone's business for at least 2 years. You're also not allowed to use anything rehashed from during or before the Karma conflict. Half the membership of the order isn't even what it was then due to natural attrition and replacement of personnel.

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1300526956' post='2670074']
And you seem to be woefully diluted if you think you will have the option to dictate otherwise. Though, believe it or not, I think your leadership is much more intelligent then that, so I'm guessing your sentiment is more just a rank and file one. Whatever hope and prayer one in a million chance you may have had of coming out on top at the start of this realistically died a few weeks ago. Time to face the facts, and adjust views accordingly.

etc...
[/quote]

Even if the rest of Bob may not all deserve it, I have hope some sense of moral outrage will eventually outweigh the mere word of treaty and neutral concern in them. It may be vain, but I've definitely not given up yet nor shall I any time soon.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Lusitan]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1300525841' post='2670066']
I understand your cost-benefit analysis, but why do you seem to imply as if we're causing all these meta-problems such as long periods of peace or what-not. We did not start this war; you did. It's not as if we gave you provocation to do so.

Also, while your analysis works on paper, it makes no sense to us. Demanding us just about anything and expecting us to acquiesce to them is absurd. Then imposing terms and reparations on our allies makes it even more absurd. Especially given the context of how this all started. So no, your little analysis is rendered moot.
[/quote]

We did not start the war. The attack on NPO was done out of strategic need to control their imminent involvement in the war. It is not on our best interests to keep NPO at war forever and no alliance should go through that. But the problem here is that there's too much crap floating around for us to swim out of it. Reducing NPO's capacity to cause us damage now that it's clear we're not going to be best friends is the only way to ensure our security. We don't demand just about anything, the proposal we sent NPO is very rational and simple and provides an easy way out for everyone where everyone's needs are relatively satisfied (threat removed for us, NPO gets out of the war without terms and we all go home happy). Refusing that proposal without giving it the proper consideration because "we started this" is not good for NPO nor anyone and reveals short sighting.

[quote name='Henry' timestamp='1300526084' post='2670067']
You're probably aware that the ~no reps~ offer only applies to the NPO. GOONS want reps. The whole "lets give NPO white peace and lets take 2 billion in reps from their friends" smoke and mirrors routine isn't working. I'm pretty fond of those friends myself, so I'm pretty supportive of telling DoomHouse to $%&@ off.

Plus I don't like your sides implied threat of "don't you dare grow too fast or ally with people we don't like" hanging permanently over my head.
[/quote]

Last I checked GOONS were charging around 100 million per alliance. Sure you have 15 allies in or something, but 100 million is (stupid because it can't be divided by 3) nothing. I might be wrong though, I am not into other alliances' negotiation processes.

Second, there's no implied threat. You were attacked because you were in the line to enter the conflict and we perceived you as an imminent and real threat in the conflict that was happening. We have better things to do than going around chasing ghosts and declaring on alliances out of the blue. Like buying tech.

[Dagrr]

disregard double post

Edited March 19, 2011 by Henry

[Dagrr]

[quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1300527126' post='2670077']
Last I checked GOONS were charging around 100 million per alliance. Sure you have 15 allies in or something, but 100 million is (stupid because it can't be divided by 3) nothing. I might be wrong though, I am not into other alliances' negotiation processes.
[/quote]

Its 2 billion from Legion "because they didn't fight."

Most of the others are around a couple hundred million each. It was leaked about 40 pages back in this thread I think. You can ask your people if you can't find it.

[Feldheim C]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1300527108' post='2670076']
Sure. Your aggression was unjustified. THere's the damn good argument. You're the one who has the burden of proof on him to prove the conflict was justified.. so.. I'm awaiting to hear your justification for assaulting an alliance who had not interfered in practically anyone's business for at least 2 years.
[/quote]
Justification has already been given, it seems pointless to restate it here. And passing the burden of proof is not an argument.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Feldheim C' timestamp='1300527467' post='2670080']
Justification has already been given, it seems pointless to restate it here. And passing the burden of proof is not an argument.
[/quote]

If extortion lets you sleep at night, may your nation be full of wealth.

[Lusitan]

[quote name='Henry' timestamp='1300527335' post='2670078']
Its 2 billion from Legion because they didn't fight.

Most of the others are around a couple hundred million each. It was leaked about 40 pages back in this thread I think. You can ask your people if you can't find it.
[/quote]

Ok, if Legion's (and other people's) reparations were negotiated to an acceptable level for them you would be ok with this way of ending the war?

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Feldheim C' timestamp='1300527467' post='2670080']
Justification has already been given, it seems pointless to restate it here. And passing the burden of proof is not an argument.
[/quote]

None of the justification haveing been given is befitting the current war. It's all rehash from a quarter decade ago.

[Dagrr]

[quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1300527542' post='2670082']
Ok, if Legion's (and other people's) reparations were negotiated to an acceptable level for them you would be ok with this way of ending the war?
[/quote]

That would definitely be a nice start. I've been pretty firm in my stance of white peace for the entire front personally. I'm not a negotiator or any kind of official though.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Henry

[Feldheim C]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1300527596' post='2670083']
None of the justification haveing been given is befitting the current war. It's all rehash from a quarter decade ago.
[/quote]

This is only your opinion (And yes i do understand it is the opinion of most of your coalition)

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1300527528' post='2670081']
If extortion lets you sleep at night, may your nation be full of wealth.
[/quote]

I have never extorted money from anyone but I feel it might.

(Note, just because I argue my coalition isn't evil doesn't mean I'm not.)

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Also..

*pushes N and hits enter, reformats morals directory*

Edited March 19, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Feldheim C]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1300527973' post='2670087']
Also..

*pushes N and hits enter, reformats morals directory*
[/quote]
/morals is a junk directory. nice try though.