CNRP and what it's become

[Sithis]

Allow me to preface by saying that I apologize for the massive wall of text. I in no way expect everyone to agree with me, and feel free to reply with everything you disagree with, but please be specific (i.e. quoting) so I can understand where you're coming from.

CNRP has changed a lot since I began, over three years ago. In those days, it was a community of people within Cyber Nations that dropped their alliance affiliations and came together out of a mutual interest in creating a very detail-oriented, very intricate, and very dynamic world. There weren't any forums dedicated to CNRP, aside from the News Reports sections where most of the CNRP stuff was played out. It was there that I first created the world of my nation at the time, Realm, and where I got my taste of the beginnings of what is today CNRP. There wasn't an IRC channel, or a separate forum for OOC discussion - hell, the World Map thread that I revived wasn't even pinned.

Was it disorganized? Yes. Is the organization of CNRP a lot better nowadays? Yes. Does this mean it has better communication? No. And herein lies the problem.

CNRP has evolved into this monster of "You can't do this because of X" discussion. Anytime there's any kind of technology or military involved, people react like someone killed their dog. When I started, there wasn't any sort of guideline for what kind of military you had, there was just a general understanding that you wouldn't RP ridiculous stuff like supersoldiers or mech machines. CNRP comes with a certain degree of the suspension of disbelief, but to a limited extent. And in those days, if someone's RP was ridiculous it was ignored (meaning no one posted in it and the topic died).

For an example of what things used to be like, look no further than [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=29796"]this thread[/url]. Everyone who participated in that RP knew how much fun it was to see the developments in an international military operation. But for those of you who read it now, note the lack of OOC discussion about military capabilities. [b]The focus was on the general situation involving the Kingdom of Sahrani's collapse, and that's where the focus should always lie.[/b]

Don't get me wrong, I love details, we all do. That's what makes this world even more realistic; details allow us to make this CNRP world exist. However, details are a gift and a curse. They can permit discussions to get bogged down in semantical arguments and make people lose sight of the general picture. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what kind of caliber rifle your troops use, or what kind of tank your country has in its employ, as long as it's something falling within the realm of reality. There should be limitations as to what things like these can be, but they should not be nearly as strict as what has come up in OOC discussion that I've seen.

Often times, the arguments that I've seen come from older or larger players in CNRP against newcomers who are just breaking into the world that we all enjoy. Yes, these newcomers often don't know what they're doing, and gentle instruction is all that is needed. And as an old CNRP player (*shakes cane*) I believe that the older players deserve a certain amount of respect. [b]Yet just because a nation is small in game or new to CNRP (or both) does not mean that they cannot have the IC capabilities that some other, older/larger nations enjoy.[/b] These newcomers should be told a very simple statement: if they intend on increasing their military, technological, etc. capabilities, then they should RP a [b]gradual[/b] development over time. [b]The result of this would mean more active, invested players who have an understanding of what this community is and will in turn reinforce that understanding to newcomers.[/b]

There is another issue here, and it's a cultural one. Perhaps this is a personal note and I may be in the wrong, but CNRP is much more than just coming to these forums and detailing how large your military stockpile is. CNRP is about the interactions of people we all created, intricate characters who have personalities we crafted over time. It's not some dick waving contest where you can say that because you have a nuclear stockpile that you are the strongest nation and no one can touch you.

Half the reason I come in here is because I'm studying politics and history, and there's no better way to practice my knowledge of both of those by implementing them in an alternate reality. I didn't come on here to debate military logistics of battleships, and I won't. If I'm going to get into something as complicated as a military operation with you, [b]expect a private message so we can work out an understanding of how the events will occur.[/b] I encourage all CNRP players to do the same.


End rant.

Edited March 14, 2011 by Sithis

[KaiserMelech Mikhail]

While you are 100% right, I'm going to predict what happens next. First, around 10 people will come in here and agree with what you just said (myself being one of them). Next, a big nation will come in and talk about how you want to remove their power and that only they can achieve this level and not some noob. Next, we will get 3-4 pages of arguments that you just railed against. Finally, this thread will sink to page 2 of this forum and nothing will be done in the end.

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='KaiserMelech Mikhail' timestamp='1300121970' post='2664655']
While you are 100% right, I'm going to predict what happens next. First, around 10 people will come in here and agree with what you just said (myself being one of them). Next, a big nation will come in and talk about how you want to remove their power and that only they can achieve this level and not some noob. Next, we will get 3-4 pages of arguments that you just railed against. Finally, this thread will sink to page 2 of this forum and nothing will be done in the end.
[/quote]

You are right.

I agree with you Sithis, and one other thing I've noticed is that many, many people do is blur the OOC/IC line in their interactions ICly and how they respond to certain events regarding that nation. I admit, I sometimes do it, but every action I make I make sure has some IC precedent based off ideology or previous action.

Edited March 14, 2011 by Voodoo Nova

[TheShammySocialist]

Being one of the newer arrivals to CNRP, and having been around for about a month now, I find your statement to be true, Sithis. The best way to integrate yourself into this community is to be competent, work yourself up, give respect where it is due, of course, and I've found, just ask questions when you don't know whats up.

I started out by playing around with a non-CNRP-related RP, and then found that I'd rather have interaction with the community. And I made sure to read the rules more than once, and even read a number of threads back a few pages to see what was up. I'm still learning to this day, but I feel like I've been accepted by the general population for just building up gradually, and easing myself into the community little-by-little.

[AironthFlamewing]

Sithis- I completely agree with you and sort of put an onus on the Big Nations(ie Novak or Pravus) for not teaching the rules almost. I remember when I started I would mess up pretty bad and I would get rolled, but I took the actions I took because of how I had played games where you conquer land and build civs and such, to me in the beginning it was plop troops down, and the land is yours. No one really bothered to pull me aside nicely and say "Hey, Don't bloody do that I have claims on that land, it reverts back to me if X nation falls." In essence, teach me the politics and the do's and don'ts of the game. What I'm getting at is basically all nations of CNRP shouldnt be all SMASH HIM NOW because a player does something wrong. We should teach the RP'ers so that its still fun for them and they can do as they choose with their rp, but its not "Lulz, Novak wuz mean, I attack Novak"

We need to teach, not punish noobs or else the community will wither

[Lynneth]

Having been in CNRP for around two and a half years now, I've realized one thing:
I don't give a !@#$ about some things, and I'm gonna RP my stuff. I'll let people RP theirs, as well, provided they don't go insane with it.
I don't agree with some of CNRP's rules, mod-imposed or community-made.
I do agree that people should focus more on the fun and less on OOC discussions and all that. However, changing things is hard, and requires action, something which I most likely won't provide; I for one am just chilling in Sri Lanka these days, looking at what others do, but not caring much as long as it doesn't concern the Indian Ocean.
Isolationism, in a way.

[Triyun]

Now I play the big nation devil's advocate:

The problem I have with no restriction on you based on your IG ability is that it leads to gross abuses. The reason a CN nation is an attractive nation to role play with versus the other big game is that in my opinion, CN gives you a reasonable measure of everyone's strength. If you look at other games you see things like super dreadnaughts which measure multi kilometers in length. These were RPed over a number of years but the natural tendency is for people to escalate. Yes some people will say that they personally just want to RP stories, but there are quite a few people who want to grab as much land as possible to RP their ideal kingdom. There are others like myself who enjoy politically oriented RPGs who are somewhere in between. For the first category not having very much to go on is fine. But for the other ones you need to have parameters to keep things from getting too out of hand. This is especially true when it comes to technology. The last thing you want is people like LVN who used every bit of technojargon he could find to make warships which were stealth, went 200 mph on the open ocean, and fired unstoppable kinetic energy missiles which could find everything he wanted them too because he had a super sensor which detected everything in the world due to his uber super computer.

Personally I find its just common sense for small nations not to have a lot of capability as far as military, although I suppose there could be a role for being a North Korea if you built a !@#$ ton of older guns or something. I do not think every nation should have F-22s at 100 NS though. Rather, I think it would be much better if nations such as these ones focused on learning politics and making strong friends. When I came back and I was under terms, my military was quite weak. I was able to position myself well by first doing a lot of research about the political situation and then making deals with stronger powers in a potentially hostile neighborhood. If you want to jump into power politics instead of being isolationist this is the smartest thing to do.

[Sithis]

[quote name='Lynneth' timestamp='1300124450' post='2664698']
Having been in CNRP for around two and a half years now, I've realized one thing:
I don't give a !@#$ about some things, and I'm gonna RP my stuff. I'll let people RP theirs, as well, provided they don't go insane with it.
[/quote]
This is also something I've realized, and I've come to terms with it.

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1300124762' post='2664702']
Now I play the big nation devil's advocate:

The problem I have with no restriction on you based on your IG ability is that it leads to gross abuses. The reason a CN nation is an attractive nation to role play with versus the other big game is that in my opinion, CN gives you a reasonable measure of everyone's strength. If you look at other games you see things like super dreadnaughts which measure multi kilometers in length. These were RPed over a number of years but the natural tendency is for people to escalate. Yes some people will say that they personally just want to RP stories, but there are quite a few people who want to grab as much land as possible to RP their ideal kingdom. There are others like myself who enjoy politically oriented RPGs who are somewhere in between. For the first category not having very much to go on is fine. But for the other ones you need to have parameters to keep things from getting too out of hand. This is especially true when it comes to technology. The last thing you want is people like LVN who used every bit of technojargon he could find to make warships which were stealth, went 200 mph on the open ocean, and fired unstoppable kinetic energy missiles which could find everything he wanted them too because he had a super sensor which detected everything in the world due to his uber super computer.

Personally I find its just common sense for small nations not to have a lot of capability as far as military, although I suppose there could be a role for being a North Korea if you built a !@#$ ton of older guns or something. I do not think every nation should have F-22s at 100 NS though. Rather, I think it would be much better if nations such as these ones focused on learning politics and making strong friends. When I came back and I was under terms, my military was quite weak. I was able to position myself well by first doing a lot of research about the political situation and then making deals with stronger powers in a potentially hostile neighborhood. If you want to jump into power politics instead of being isolationist this is the smartest thing to do.
[/quote]
I agree with a lot of what you're saying here and I think that in-game stats are a good indicator of where someone should [b]start[/b]. I'm not saying that there be no limitations, merely that the limitations are either excessive or vague. My OP was more about the general attitude people have versus the actual problems with the limitations.

[Sargun II]

Back in the old days, I rose from a farming nation in Nigeria to controlling almost the entire Sahara - and it was only after I gained my "pixels" on the map that I caught up in-game. In fact, I was an extremely weak nation with stats but because I did my RP in a convincing manner, I was able to convince those of lesser power that I was even more powerful than I was. I allied with more powerful nations (including Sithis) and for the most part didn't participate in military activities, instead focusing on domestic RP and international diplomacy, including the formation of the PAC, 2PAC, and Diamonds.

When I left Africa for the second time and came to Scotland (Acadia being a stepping stone, as I said at the time) I found myself unable to do anything approaching this. Not just because of more stringent OOC rules, but because the IC climate has changed dramatically since the earlier days - and not for the better. One of the most egregious offenses was the "Ferrous Pacific" pact, the name of the alliance alluding to IRON and NPO. We see the same people allying with the same people over and over again regardless of what happens, or if there are new nations, or what sort of wars go around. It's a stale, repeating cycle that has blurred the line between the OOC and the IC.

This is the core of my sole complaint about CNRP - new nations have comfortably fitted in for years without incident, it is only those who refuse to accept that they are not the head honcho that end up leaving or being ostracized. The real problem is that we have moved away from the need for RP and into a need to win. Whether that's a good or a bad thing is for everyone else to decide.

[Bacharth]

I agree with everything said here so far.

Too many arguments, not enough fun. Glad to have you back, Sithis.

[Yawoo]

If new players come to CNRP looking to learn, and not to be the big fish in the little pond then they're fine. A lot of people say we're too hard on our newbies, but we aren't. I managed to survive in CNRP as a newbie 1.5 years ago and others can as well. We give respect where we receive it and you'll find those who do this end up sticking around. This type of thread comes up every few months, and with all due respect, I say, get over it. CNRP evolves just like everything else in the world. We can't sit around a campfire and yearn for the old days and allow the present to pass us.

[Executive Minister]

I would motion that starting as a small fry, building your nation IC and IG to 'big fish' status is ultimately more satisfying (I still have a ways to go myself). Sithis, the EM of old would agree with you... but i think i've seen the light. Let the oppression continue.

[Vedran]

I agree with your post, Sithis, and having been here mostly nonstop from the old days to today, I have a decent idea of how the transition happened. Over time, more and more people (including LVN, and many other larger nations, and then smaller nations) abusing the common sense rule. They wanted to have a badass military with laser guns. So more and more rules got stacked on.

Look at that thread, I wanted to have a badass military too. I based them and a bit of my government after the Aurorans in the game EV Nova. I was still testing things out, and after I became more invested in the community, I began to make my nation more consistent, more realistic, and after a few years I'm a much better RPer for it. I suppose I have Botha to thank for that, his quality RP in southern Africa encouraged me to stay and develop my skills, improve my experience.

In my case, I wasn't joining an established community, I was one of the people there from the beginning, but it was the same situation as a new person joining now. You don't have much of a feel of what you want out of the community, and if you're not already familiar with it, you're going to play it like Age of Empires, you want your nation to be the best and most badass. But after some experience you may realize that that's not all there is to it, there's more than sending your soldiers out and taking land.

Some people may not realize this, and those people, I think, can benefit from advice by older players. There are some irreparable cases like LVN and that's another discussion, but the majority of people want to learn; they just may not know where to look for it.

And I'm glad you made this thread, Sithis.

Edited March 14, 2011 by Vedran

[Triyun]

[quote name='Sithis' timestamp='1300126034' post='2664712']
This is also something I've realized, and I've come to terms with it.


I agree with a lot of what you're saying here and I think that in-game stats are a good indicator of where someone should [b]start[/b]. I'm not saying that there be no limitations, merely that the limitations are either excessive or vague. My OP was more about the general attitude people have versus the actual problems with the limitations.
[/quote]

The problem comes in when big nations have been RPing for a while or even enter the game. While your nation in your scenario could build up to be as strong as mine, the problem emerges when my nation spends that same time building up and go up to uber power status. Now full disclosure, I'd love to RP the effects of Taiwan retaking most of industrial and populated China and then Korea and South East Asia. I imagine that'd be an awesome powerhouse. But it'd be pretty god modding as far as balance with other nations.

[Aggressivenutmeg]

[quote name='TheShammySocialist' timestamp='1300123078' post='2664675']
Being one of the newer arrivals to CNRP, and having been around for about a month now, I find your statement to be true, Sithis. The best way to integrate yourself into this community is to be competent, work yourself up, give respect where it is due, of course, and I've found, just ask questions when you don't know whats up.
[/quote]

pretty much this

[Bacharth]

I think I'll weigh in a little more on this situation. Because of some bad seeds, we've had some intense blanket rules put on the community, instead of dealing with things on a case-by-case basis.

We need to start doing the case-by-case anymore, and blanket nothing.

Edited March 15, 2011 by Vince Sixx

[Sargun II]

[quote name='Vince Sixx' timestamp='1300157999' post='2665217']
I think I'll weigh in a little more on this situation. Because of some bad seeds, we've had some intense blanket rules put on the community, instead of dealing with things on a case-by-case basis.

We need to start doing the case-by-case anymore, and blanket nothing.
[/quote]

We also have times where we go into debate, don't change our minds about anything, and then just forget about it. Hence the blanket rules which eliminate the need and drama of case-by-case deliberations.

[PresidentDavid]

I do find everything a little complicated.

I think there are three reasons that anyone does anything out of the normal in CNRP.


They are looking for a reason to invade someone.

They are attempting to not get invaded.

They have an OOC bias.


From what I understand is that these "Rules" were made to prevent people from getting out of boundaries that were built on top of pillars of salt and pillars of sand.

What seems to be the problem is the community. People seem to always want to be right and crush anyone that they disagree with. That is why there isn't really any diversity in CNRP.
If North Korea starts a "Communist People's Republics Treaty" the United States will not drop a nuclear bomb on them.

If my in game nation (The USI) would start a "Nations Against Communist Nations Treaty" and I was not protected by Ireland, I would get rolled by communists nations that shouldn't have even noticed my existence.



I think the problem is that people seem to be obsessed with being right and crushing those of whom they do not like so they take extreme measures weekly that most nations take once every 40-50 years.


I thinking the million dollar question is what seems to have made CNRP fun in the beginning. Maybe it was that all nations were strong. Now adays, from what I have read, nation's strength are based off there Ingame stats.
If my nation was just as strong or very close to as strong as Triyun's then I am sure he wouldn't have even worried me when I sent humanitarian aid to Alaska when all the commies thought it would be funny to force someone to RP a certain government they didn't want to RP.

I see this as the big guys picking on the little guys that can't defend themselves.


Here are the two solutions I see for not having CNRP being aggravating and so irrelevant to it's original purpose:

1) Have all the little nations form a Union so the balance of power is more equal

OR

2) Stop basing military strength off ingame stats so that older players can't bully new players


It's that simple. It will never get done; but it's that simple.

P.S.

In case you skipped to the bottom, I agree to you Sithis

[Zoot Zoot]

Or.
We Can Just man the hell up and get on with it like we always do.
Sorry if this is uncalled for but I have seen a dozen threads like this all of them have no bearing on the community no matter how many people agree with it's sentiment.
So, In summary.

We man up.
We get on with it,
And take each RP as it comes.

[PresidentDavid]

[quote name='Zoot Zoot' timestamp='1300160069' post='2665250']
Or.
We Can Just man the hell up and get on with it like we always do.
Sorry if this is uncalled for but I have seen a dozen threads like this all of them have no bearing on the community no matter how many people agree with it's sentiment.
So, In summary.

We man up.
We get on with it,
And take each RP as it comes.
[/quote]

Ignoring a problem doesn't really solve it...

[Triyun]

[quote name='PresidentDavid' timestamp='1300159492' post='2665238']
I do find everything a little complicated.

I think there are three reasons that anyone does anything out of the normal in CNRP.


They are looking for a reason to invade someone.

They are attempting to not get invaded.

They have an OOC bias. [/quote]

What are you defining as normal exactly?


[quote]From what I understand is that these "Rules" were made to prevent people from getting out of boundaries that were built on top of pillars of salt and pillars of sand.

What seems to be the problem is the community. People seem to always want to be right and crush anyone that they disagree with. That is why there isn't really any diversity in CNRP.
If North Korea starts a "Communist People's Republics Treaty" the United States will not drop a nuclear bomb on them.

If my in game nation (The USI) would start a "Nations Against Communist Nations Treaty" and I was not protected by Ireland, I would get rolled by communists nations that shouldn't have even noticed my existence. [/quote]

Political manuvering is part of RPing, Keshav and Cochin both expressed a desire to attack my nation early on, Lavo's treaty prevented that from being a viable option. I was attacked by Mercy and Lavo the first day I DoEed the RDST. Both cases required recognizing threats and taking action to neutralize them when military superiority wasn't an option. It makes for plenty interesting RP and nations can do it. You just have chosen not to.

Also read books on US interventions during the Cold War, while the US didn't drop bombs on many nations, we did take covert action in Guatamela, Cuba, Iran, DRC, Chile, Angola, Greece, etc. The list goes on of countries the US intervened in to check the flow of communism. The only reason we weren't more aggressive was a desire to keep outright war with the USSR from breaking out. The reverse is true to a lesser extent with USSR interventions. Its a pretty standard practice that larger powers use coercion to get what they want. Smaller powers need to find stronger protectors. Thats always been the way of international relations. I don't see why in a nation role play it should be different. I see it as an opportunity for smaller nations to figure out strategies.


[quote]I think the problem is that people seem to be obsessed with being right and crushing those of whom they do not like so they take extreme measures weekly that most nations take once every 40-50 years. [/quote]

The only Gulf War style war thats happened recently is the war against the OR and Nod, both weren't sought out by the ultimate victors, but rather were the result of aggressive action taken. Other interventions have been much smaller, and those occur much more often when it comes to major powers intervening. IRL there has been a unipolar world rather than a multi polar world which exists in CN RP. This has meant that the US has intervened frequently, but other nations really have not had the ability to do so. Because CN RP has many nations with strong power projection capabilities the option is available to many more nations.

[quote]I thinking the million dollar question is what seems to have made CNRP fun in the beginning. Maybe it was that all nations were strong. Now adays, from what I have read, nation's strength are based off there Ingame stats.
If my nation was just as strong or very close to as strong as Triyun's then I am sure he wouldn't have even worried me when I sent humanitarian aid to Alaska when all the commies thought it would be funny to force someone to RP a certain government they didn't want to RP. [/quote]

No I still would have intervened even had a large atlantic based capitalist power been involved. It was an IC strategic decision. Your injecting OOC morality into an equation that had absolutely no OOC motivation. The war actually had very little to do with ideology and a lot more to do with traditional power politics anyway.

CN RP was always based on IG stats btw, at least since I've done it (Mid 2007). It was just in the early days there were no navies IG so there was more leverage there, and you could have mecha units in place of tanks and fighter planes. There were always larger nations and smaller nations. Smaller nations just needed to know how to manuver. First time I came into CN RP I was in NE Asia with three powers stronger than me and only one weaker than me. The first power I encountered had a rival claim over Beijing, I played my cards right preparing both for a long geurilla war and offered an alliance. I talked my way into getting the alliance. The Japanese were a problem, I isolated the two, I took the weaker one down a few pegs. The Russian was several times my NS, I made a diplomatic deal. You don't need a large military to solve every foreign relations problem. I'd say the players who I actually would hesitate attacking I would hesitate because of things they've done things diplomatically rather than militarily. I would be a lot more hesitant to hit Sarah's nation for example than Moriarty's.

[quote]I see this as the big guys picking on the little guys that can't defend themselves. [/quote]

Your injecting OOC morality into a role play, most of what your describing can simply be ascribed to IC strategic calculations.


[quote]Here are the two solutions I see for not having CNRP being aggravating and so irrelevant to it's original purpose:[/quote]

No offense but mind defining original purpose. Stuff like this annoys me. Say what original purpose is, its a nice rhetorical word, but it often rings hollow. Define what purposes, who said what those purposes were.

[quote]1) Have all the little nations form a Union so the balance of power is more equal[/quote]

IC action, go do it. One of the things that annoys me about these type of arguments is with the exception of like 3 people I never see many people do the leg work. They complain about Zurich, Red Dawn, treaty web, but they never put in the RP to actually shake things up. A year ago there was no UFE, it was a city on a small island. Germany was divided with little hope of reunification, much less was Europe united. I judged our military position to be pretty poor back then. What did we do? We put in time to improve relations and used military power wisely. Political RPs and maneuvering is fun and yields rewards. Get out there and do it. Do not assume OOC morality puts you in the right and can be used as a substitute for what you do in the game.

[quote]2) Stop basing military strength off ingame stats so that older players can't bully new players
[/quote]

What you've described as bullying here simply isn't.

[PresidentDavid]

I see bullying as, "My way or you die."

[Shadowsage]

The strong do what they must to continue being the strong. That's how it always has been, and how it always will be.

[Triyun]

The problem with your analysis PD is that this is a role playing game. You are playing a role of a national leader and a nation. There is no strong nation in the world that does not behave in a manner which you are calling bullying and making OOC behavior.

[Manetheren]

"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must"

Thucydides was right. Its how it works.

Edited March 15, 2011 by Emperor Mudd