A Dilettante into Politics

[Omniscient1]

I mostly agree on what you said about Polaris. However, I'm no Pacifica lover not even now. I'm sure almost everyone could tell you this, but let's not pretend they only treatied people on the fringe because they wanted to. They were forced there because no one likes their attitude, and every in road they have made with any other alliances are usually shut down by the people who hate them. I think that those shut downs are a good thing, but don't pretend Pacifica set itself opposite of PB on purpose. They were forced over there.

[Heft]

Also, I just have to point out the sheer absurdity of criticizing the Orders as being "arrogant" for not kissing your collective asses and asking nicely to be let inside your clubhouse.

[DictatatorDan]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1298702250' post='2645279']
Also, I just have to point out the sheer absurdity of criticizing the Orders as being "arrogant" for not kissing your collective asses and asking nicely to be let inside your clubhouse.
[/quote]
[color="#FF0000"]...and I would like to point out how many times people have said "If you dont like us, do something about it". Well, it's been done.[/color]

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='DictatatorDan' timestamp='1298702807' post='2645284']
[color="#FF0000"]...and I would like to point out how many times people have said "If you dont like us, do something about it". Well, it's been done.[/color]
[/quote]

Hah, we haven't said that since Karma. Still living in the past. All the same time, I'm still impressed MK got the gumption to actually declare a war for once, even if they had no cause for it.

Edited February 26, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Mistress Demona]

[quote name='DictatatorDan' timestamp='1298614549' post='2644515']
All the while doing so, they only took token steps at smoothing over some of their earlier actions. Instead, the public face of NPO on the OWF has been that of an NPO that was not humbled by Karma, and carry themselves with the same level of arrogance as the old NPO.[/quote]

Give me an example of a top ten alliance who has EVER taken some sort of public step (token or not, and I want links) to "smooth over some of their earlier actions" that was not specifically required as a term of surrender.

Name one alliance in the top 15 who does not "carry themselves with the same level of arrogance" that they had before the war after a big war (even if they lost) than before that was NOT tied in to the terms of surrender.

IF it is correct that NPO should do something more - than so should every alliance that has ever committed the same sort of act(s). (aka: EZI/PZI, high reps, attacking people just because of their team color...no one ever actually apologized in any official capacity for Red Safari, did they? - and so on)

Complaining that NPO hasn't done enough might hold some sway IF either a) no other alliance EVER committed the same types of act(s) in their past or b) those other alliances involved in the same sort of actions start making amends beyond what was required of them (if anything ever was) for peace.

Edited February 26, 2011 by Mistress Demona

[Heft]

[quote name='DictatatorDan' timestamp='1298702807' post='2645284']
[color="#FF0000"]...and I would like to point out how many times people have said "If you dont like us, do something about it". Well, it's been done.[/color]
[/quote]
How does that address anything I said? Furthermore, show me where NPO has said "If you don't like us then come attack us?" Are you so incapable of articulating an original argument that you can't even respond to a simple post without shooting off something totally irrelevant in the hopes that it might stick?

[Daimos]

[quote name='DogeWilliam' timestamp='1298673860' post='2644981']
I think the point is that NPO did not make a dynamic shift into a new form following Karma. They were the same alliance, merely in the background and not dictating foreign conflicts anymore. In other words, they should have learned something from Karma and tried to radically changed themselves. Seek completely new allies and integrate themselves into a new world. But hey, maybe no one gave them a chance. Or maybe they didn't try. Either way, they didn't do enough to keep them out of Karma part deux. Cause let's be honest NPO was very arrogant in the past and plenty of people wanted to see them hurt again, and they didn't endear themselves to stop it.

I think NpO is a different case. As in they are simply getting a good beatdown. There are many who want revenge on them as well, but not all of them are actually fighting NpO.
[/quote]

This war is not "Karma part deux". To call it that probably insults some of the alliances that fought against us during that war.

[Chief Savage Man]

[quote name='Daimos' timestamp='1298703519' post='2645294']
This war is not "Karma part deux". To call it that probably insults some of the alliances that fought against us during that war.
[/quote]

This is "Karma Done Right"

[DictatatorDan]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1298703327' post='2645290']
How does that address anything I said? Furthermore, show me where NPO has said "If you don't like us then come attack us?" Are you so incapable of articulating an original argument that you can't even respond to a simple post without shooting off something totally irrelevant in the hopes that it might stick?
[/quote]
*shrugs*
[color="#FF0000"]The original argument was in the OP. You decided to grossly oversimplify it for the purposes of suiting your own views. Nothing you have said here warrants addressing. Make a coherent argument and then see what happens.[/color]

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1298692163' post='2645166']
I was referring more to the Polar(well moreso the stunt blues) thing. What is it about then?
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Fine. Substitute Polar or stunt blue for NPO. It does not change a single thing I said. This "respect" argument is utterly absurd. Surely the collective egos of your side cannot be so weak and vulnerable so as to perceive "disrespect" at every corner.[/color]

[DictatatorDan]

[quote name='Mistress Demona' timestamp='1298703324' post='2645289']
Give me an example of a top ten alliance who has EVER taken some sort of public step (token or not, and I want links) to "smooth over some of their earlier actions" that was not specifically required as a term of surrender.

Name one alliance in the top 15 who does not "carry themselves with the same level of arrogance" that they had before the war after a big war (even if they lost) than before that was NOT tied in to the terms of surrender.

IF it is correct that NPO should do something more - than so should every alliance that has ever committed the same sort of act(s). (aka: EZI/PZI, high reps, attacking people just because of their team color...no one ever actually apologized in any official capacity for Red Safari, did they? - and so on)

Complaining that NPO hasn't done enough might hold some sway IF either a) no other alliance EVER committed the same types of act(s) in their past or b) those other alliances involved in the same sort of actions start making amends beyond what was required of them (if anything ever was) for peace.
[/quote]

[color="#FF0000"]I dont know of another alliance that has kept someone at war for two years with the terms "die". Maybe DH will surpass that reccord.

The circumstances that NPO was placed in were unique to NPO. No other alliance has had such a dramatic change of fortunes as NPO, and no alliance has ever been reviled as much as NPO.

So to find another similar situation to theirs, the best I could point you to is FAN, however when they repaired their reputation behind the scenes in private with other alliances.[/color]

[Heft]

[quote name='DictatatorDan' timestamp='1298703713' post='2645299']
*shrugs*
[color="#FF0000"]The original argument was in the OP. You decided to grossly oversimplify it for the purposes of suiting your own views. Nothing you have said here warrants addressing. Make a coherent argument and then see what happens.[/color]
[/quote]
The OP reads more like a book report written by a fourth grader than like any sort of actual political analysis or argument. Further, it reads like a book report where the writer clearly didn't understand the book, and has nothing intelligent to say, and has no coherent thesis to put forward.

You present a mish-mash of arguments that other people have already put forth elsewhere, and those other people generally presented those views more clearly, succinctly, and articulately. You then stir in some of your own ideas, I think, most of which are more imagination than reality, and finally sprinkle in some out-and-out prejudice. There is nothing new, nothing coherent, and nothing worthwhile about the OP. It's only potential value is muddying actual political discourse and debate.

I cannot oversimplify an argument which does not exist.

[Daimos]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1298703712' post='2645298']
This is "Karma Done Right"
[/quote]

Tell me what the alliances who fought us during the Karma War did not do right.

[+Zeke+]

[quote name='Garrow' timestamp='1298696500' post='2645211']Not liking someone is a good enough excuse for a war, [b]says Doomhouse[/b].[/quote]

The bold part says it all.

Rewriting the customs when convenient.


I once stood through a month long blizzard of hate in Dec 06 blasting from Pacifica while trying to defend New Reverie's shenanigans. Just NR and myself (and NR really wasn't helping) against Dilber and the entirety of NPO. We were all looooooong past hate during that month. The entirety of Bob stood poised to jump.

But guess what? The war didn't happen. Even Dilber believed that he needed something more than just anger to start GW2. Sure, he got it a month later with the GOONS rolling in on the emerging FARK alliance. But the point remains that all the anger in the world wasn't enough to roll Pacifica without what they considered a rock solid CB. Everyone knew things simply weren't done that way.

Wars required legitimacy in the past. I'm not a fool to believe that sometimes that legitimacy wasn't exactly legitimate, but the proper form was followed. Even the Polaris side of this war gives at least token effort to provide legitimacy. Furthermore, the weak CB's had their own consequences. When the CB faltered with the progression of time, the alliance bringing it lost standing and reputation. I can cite quite a few examples of this if you feel you've been living under a rock for the past few years. So without an honest CB, or at least one where the subterfuge was well covered, an alliance never truly enjoyed the fruits of victory.

And so shall this war end that way.

[DictatatorDan]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1298704622' post='2645305']
The OP reads more like a book report written by a fourth grader than like any sort of actual political analysis or argument. Further, it reads like a book report where the writer clearly didn't understand the book, and has nothing intelligent to say, and has no coherent thesis to put forward.

You present a mish-mash of arguments that other people have already put forth elsewhere, and those other people generally presented those views more clearly, succinctly, and articulately. You then stir in some of your own ideas, I think, most of which are more imagination than reality, and finally sprinkle in some out-and-out prejudice. There is nothing new, nothing coherent, and nothing worthwhile about the OP. It's only potential value is muddying actual political discourse and debate.

I cannot oversimplify an argument which does not exist.
[/quote]
[color="#FF0000"]Clearly you have bested me...[/color]

[Heft]

[quote name='DictatatorDan' timestamp='1298704936' post='2645311']
[color="#FF0000"]Clearly you have bested me...[/color]
[/quote]
Finally we agree on something.

[DictatatorDan]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1298705363' post='2645313']
Finally we agree on something.
[/quote]
[color="#FF0000"]You too have learned the art of the t-force which shall not me mentioned.[/color]

[Heft]

[quote name='DictatatorDan' timestamp='1298705820' post='2645316']
[color="#FF0000"]You too have learned the art of the t-force which shall not me mentioned.[/color]
[/quote]
It's sort of a requirement for my position, really.

[DictatatorDan]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1298705965' post='2645317']
It's sort of a requirement for my position, really.
[/quote]
[color="#FF0000"]Hurp Derp.

Remember that feeling on the eve of the WoTC in regards to Polaris? That's about how DH feels about Pacifica. Dont ask me to explain the relvancy. That requires effort and another wall of text that you...
A.) Wont Read
B.) Resort to ad hominem attacks[/color]

[Heft]

[quote name='DictatatorDan' timestamp='1298706177' post='2645318']
[color="#FF0000"]Hurp Derp.

Remember that feeling on the eve of the WoTC in regards to Polaris? That's about how DH feels about Pacifica. Dont ask me to explain the relvancy. That requires effort and another wall of text that you...
A.) Wont Read
B.) Resort to ad hominem attacks[/color]
[/quote]
Personally, on the eve of WoTC I just felt weariness and bland resignation.

But comparing the two incidents and trying to justify this with that is pretty fun.

[Solaris]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1298664488' post='2644885']
Pointing out obvious political bias is hardly an ad hominem.
[/quote]
Equating a world leader with a cheerleader is hardly how normal, rational, and subjective people communicate. It's a means of belittling, unless you're confused, and as such an [i]ad hominem.[/i]

I'm glad you're willing to learn, Mael.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Solaris' timestamp='1298708685' post='2645334']
Equating a world leader with a cheerleader is hardly how normal, rational, and subjective people communicate. It's a means of belittling, unless you're confused, and as such an [i]ad hominem.[/i]

I'm glad you're willing to learn, Mael.
[/quote]

How is that an ad hominem? Are you saying he does not look good in a mini-skirt while carrying pom-poms? Because that, Sir, would be an ad hominem indeed.

PS. C'mon, Dan.. you know you want to do it.

Edited February 26, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Solaris]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1298710065' post='2645343']
How is that an ad hominem? Are you saying he does not look good in a mini-skirt while carrying pom-poms? Because that, Sir, would be an ad hominem indeed.
[/quote]
You're delightful.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Solaris' timestamp='1298710164' post='2645347']
You're delightful.
[/quote]

I hereby accuse you of smiling at my taunts.

[DogeWilliam]

[quote name='Daimos' timestamp='1298703519' post='2645294']
This war is not "Karma part deux". To call it that probably insults some of the alliances that fought against us during that war.
[/quote]

I beg to differ.