The war on Evil.

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1296379807' post='2610921']
We expected someone might try to take advantage of our position. Our suspicions were well served. Even before I was given the orders to hit peace I was collecting daily wondering which of the people that held old grudges against us would hit us. Especially when I saw how the war on Polar started. The funny part is, my military commanders were calling me 'paranoid' for it at the time. I was even checking the game every 4 hours to see if someone attacked us. It was the only reason I managed to make it into peace before/during the attacks against us. I'm not certain exactly when the first attacks began so I'm not sure which it was.

We were being prepared, but we did not stand up our military. It was no cause for your aggressive, evil, violence against us. You had no cause. We do have the right to defend ourselves and our sovereignty if it is at risk and it might have been. You do not have the right to strike pre-emptively because you are simply paranoid otherwise everyone would use that every conflict. Religions defend the right to self-defense and tolerance, but not to aggression. You are evil.
[/quote]

You would have to be either completely inactive or a complete idiot not to have seen this war coming months ago. As soon as Polaris was hit it should have been [i]very[/i] clear that Pacifica was next.

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1296379322' post='2610918']
Certainly. When Vladimir and Cortath recant everything they've written for the past few years, and publicly state that Francoism is not Pacifica's official philosophy, I shall clap my hands red.
[/quote]

Having not been in the NPO for a number of years myself, I've often wondered how much those longwinded papers of insanity actually affect the NPO's daily operation or its member's behavior. Either I just got luck tonight and got to work with a rare but oddly honest group of NPOers tonight, or the alliance as a whole doesn't put the amount backing behind those documents that you suppose they do.

And still, even if Francoism is the official philosophy, you should support this group of Pacificans' efforts to promote something contrary to it, right?

[quote]You would have to be either completely inactive or a complete idiot not to have seen this war coming months ago. As soon as Polaris was hit it should have been very clear that Pacifica was next. [/quote]

I totally agree there. That so much of the NPO was caught off guard, no matter how aggressive or non aggressive you believe them to be, was surprising.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Ragashingo

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1296380250' post='2610927']
You would have to be either completely inactive or a complete idiot not to have seen this war coming months ago. As soon as Polaris was hit it should have been [i]very[/i] clear that Pacifica was next.
[/quote]

See? Evil. We did nothing to merit it.

[Cyber Nationz]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1296379807' post='2610921']
We expected someone might try to take advantage of our position. Our suspicions were well served. Even before I was given the orders to hit peace I was collecting daily wondering which of the people that held old grudges against us would hit us. Especially when I saw how the war on Polar started. The funny part is, my military commanders were calling me 'paranoid' for it at the time. I was even checking the game every 4 hours to see if someone attacked us. It was the only reason I managed to make it into peace before/during the attacks against us. I'm not certain exactly when the first attacks began so I'm not sure which it was.

We were being prepared, but we did not stand up our military. It was no cause for your aggressive, evil, violence against us. You had no cause. We do have the right to defend ourselves and our sovereignty if it is at risk and it might have been. You do not have the right to strike pre-emptively because you are simply paranoid otherwise everyone would use that every conflict. Religions defend the right to self-defense and tolerance, but not to aggression. You are evil.
[/quote]

"expected" would be a politically correct term for the situation Pacifica is currently involved.
Do you mean more like "tipped off"

why would anyone want to war NPO w/o reason.
perhaps NPO thought to help their old brethren out. I mean after your fall in karma, somewhere you figured "Ordinance of Order: was the best thing you had. for your safety of course.

^ that is another way to look at it ^

[Joe Izuzu]

As I have stated [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=97592&view=findpost&p=2597205"][b]here[/b][/url], Sparta had gone preempt on NV without any treaty justification. So it was reasonable to take some precaution against a sneak attack. It was strictly defensive in case someone went postal on us. Which, of course, you did.

[Letum]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1296378856' post='2610909']
Here? Izuzu, Stuart, etc. were all heavily railing against us. You wanted us dead.
[/quote]

The attacks perpetrated by Doomhouse against the Pacific were born out of paranoia, unsubstantiated by concrete evidence beyond teasing and whatnot by regular NPO members (but few or no instances by government), and ultimately justified by reasoning that boils down to "you were going to defend your allies who we might end up attacking, thus you'd be at war at us, thus that's an aggressive threat against us." This is my paraphrase, of course.

At no time did the Pacific ever intend to aggressively pursue war against Doomhouse. We do indeed recognize the fact that, had Doomhouse hit our direct allies, we would be honor bound to defend them. We would also like to note that 2 + 2 = 4, as we feel these two statements are equally obvious. Had Doomhouse not wished to engage Pacifica, or had they wished to avoid the perceived threat, not attacking us or our allies (who were not, save for an ODP, involved in the war) would have been a really simple way to achieve this.

Does that sound familiar to someone we know?

[Monster]

[quote name='Joe Izuzu' timestamp='1296380420' post='2610935']
As I have stated [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=97592&view=findpost&p=2597205"][b]here[/b][/url], Sparta had gone preempt on NV without any treaty justification. So it was reasonable to take some precaution against a sneak attack. It was strictly defensive in case someone went postal on us. Which, of course, you did.
[/quote]

They didn't go preempt on Nueva Vida. NV attacked an alliance our end. I don't recall any of the same people decrying NSO for its treatyless entries in previous conflicts or the people who helped FAN in the last war. Like I said, NPO goes neutral definitively and we have no incentive to do it.

[Cyber Nationz]

[quote name='Joe Izuzu' timestamp='1296380420' post='2610935']
As I have stated [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=97592&view=findpost&p=2597205"][b]here[/b][/url], Sparta had gone preempt on NV without any treaty justification. So it was reasonable to take some precaution against a sneak attack. It was strictly defensive in case someone went postal on us. Which, of course, you did.
[/quote]

I think the best way for Pacifica to get out of this mess, is to go neutral like GPA.
just sit alone in their corner until the political spectrum changes. or perhaps disband.....

either way there is nothing fair about the war. keep fighting till someone surrenders.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Cyber Nationz' timestamp='1296380351' post='2610933']
"expected" would be a politically correct term for the situation Pacifica is currently involved.
Do you mean more like "tipped off"

why would anyone want to war NPO w/o reason.
perhaps NPO thought to help their old brethren out. I mean after your fall in karma, somewhere you figured "Ordinance of Order: was the best thing you had. for your safety of course.

^ that is another way to look at it ^
[/quote]

No, like my instincts told me we were going to be attacked. I felt it inevitable over time, yet I knew it would be within a due immediacy of time like.. I was anticipating the attack about 2-3 days before it actually occurred when others would say I was "overly concerned."

As to going to war with us without reason.. I have no idea why people would go to war without reason conducting warrant less aggression.

The rest is pure speculation based on what other people think we should or might have would have could have thought. Some of it's right, but most of it is wrong and based on old perspectives.

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='Cyber Nationz' timestamp='1296380351' post='2610933']
"expected" would be a politically correct term for the situation Pacifica is currently involved.
Do you mean more like "tipped off"

why would anyone want to war NPO w/o reason.
perhaps NPO thought to help their old brethren out. I mean after your fall in karma, somewhere you figured "Ordinance of Order: was the best thing you had. for your safety of course.

^ that is another way to look at it ^
[/quote]

A fairly wrong way, I believe. To the best of my knowledge Polar and Pacifica weren't the best of friends before these current wars. Now, I don't claim to have particularly detailed or up to date knowledge in this area, but that's the feeling I got for their relationship the last time I looked into it. I think their relationship will be interesting to watch in the future however given that both primary orders have been attacked for dubious reasons within a short period of time.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1296380565' post='2610938']
They didn't go preempt on Nueva Vida. NV attacked an alliance our end. I don't recall any of the same people decrying NSO for its treatyless entries in previous conflicts or the people who helped FAN in the last war. Like I said, NPO goes neutral definitively and we have no incentive to do it.
[/quote]

If you were so concerned why didn't you ask our leadership directly? Wouldn't have been to hard would it? We can't read your mind. We don't know you're paranoid. We thought you had fairly sound minded leadership that wouldn't jump the gun without cause. Were we wrong?

Edited January 30, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1296380296' post='2610931']
Having not been in the NPO for a number of years myself, I've often wondered how much those longwinded papers of insanity actually affect the NPO's daily operation or its member's behavior. Either I just got luck tonight and got to work with a rare but oddly honest group of NPOers tonight, or the alliance as a whole doesn't put the amount backing behind those documents that you suppose they do.
[/quote]

I knew Pacifica's leadership quite well, once upon a time. Most of them subscribed to belief in dialectical materialism and relativism and the like, all of which are central tenets of Francoism. This provided justification for their behaviour when they were in power, and doubtless influenced their decisions, because if they had moral issues with the way they treated people you would expect it to have more of an impact on their policies.

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1296380296' post='2610931']
And still, even if Francoism is the official philosophy, you should support this group of Pacificans' efforts to promote something contrary to it, right?
[/quote]

If this is genuine, then perhaps, but it smells of self-serving propaganda given Pacifica's philosophies in the past.

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1296380296' post='2610931']
I totally agree there. That so much of the NPO was caught off guard, no matter how aggressive or non aggressive you believe them to be, was surprising.
[/quote]

tbf they moved pretty much their entire upper tier to peacemode.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1296380797' post='2610944']
I knew Pacifica's leadership quite well, once upon a time. Most of them subscribed to belief in dialectical materialism and relativism and the like, all of which are central tenets of Francoism. This provided justification for their behaviour when they were in power, and doubtless influenced their decisions, because if they had moral issues with the way they treated people you would expect it to have more of an impact on their policies.
[/quote]

So tell me, how have our policies been since 2009?

[quote]
If this is genuine, then perhaps, but it smells of self-serving propaganda given Pacifica's philosophies in the past.
[/quote]

I respect your concern, but lets just say some agree with me, some do not. That said it's not propaganda.. It's my perspective.

[quote]
tbf they moved pretty much their entire upper tier to peacemode.
[/quote]

After the others who were in our upper tier were hit by nukes, it sure would appear that way, but before that there were many still in war mode in the upper tier who are no longer there now. I was rank 160 before the war started. I am now like.. 80 in my alliance. There's you some more concrete facts to judge my statement by.

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1296379807' post='2610921']
Religions defend the right to self-defense and tolerance, but not to aggression. DH is evil.
[/quote]
On the contrary, according to the will of Allarchon, all wars, aggressive or otherwise, against the infidel are justified.

Allarchon akbar!

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1296381056' post='2610947']
On the contrary, according to the will of Allarchon, all wars, aggressive or otherwise, against the infidel are justified.

Allarchon akbar!
[/quote]

Unfortunately, most world faiths disagree with Archon. The greatest evil being claiming the throne of God. That's a very dangerous method of making friends and followers.

[Cyber Nationz]

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1296380648' post='2610942']
A fairly wrong way, I believe. To the best of my knowledge Polar and Pacifica weren't the best of friends before these current wars. Now, I don't claim to have particularly detailed or up to date knowledge in this area, but that's the feeling I got for their relationship the last time I looked into it. I think their relationship will be interesting to watch in the future however given that both primary orders have been attacked for dubious reasons within a short period of time.
[/quote]

Look maybe NPO and NpO were improving relations under the table.
and would surprise us all like the MK and TOP treaty

[Letum]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1296380797' post='2610944']
tbf they moved pretty much their entire upper tier to peacemode.
[/quote]

MK has a greater % of their alliance in peace mode than we do. Now granted, it is much easier for a smaller alliance to do so (and it wasn't meant to be a comparison), but it should highlight that it is not a very good sign of us being well "prepared" for anything.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Cyber Nationz' timestamp='1296381264' post='2610950']
Look maybe NPO and NpO were improving relations under the table.
and would surprise us all like the MK and TOP treaty
[/quote]

Another maybe.. would have.. should have.. speculatory attempt to get around the facts? Do you have anything that actually happened to base anything on versus sheer conjecture?

You're grasping at straws to get DH a valid cb that might have happened. They're evil, accept it.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1296380797' post='2610944']
I knew Pacifica's leadership quite well, once upon a time. Most of them subscribed to belief in dialectical materialism and relativism and the like, all of which are central tenets of Francoism. This provided justification for their behaviour when they were in power, and doubtless influenced their decisions, because if they had moral issues with the way they treated people you would expect it to have more of an impact on their policies.

If this is genuine, then perhaps, but it smells of self-serving propaganda given Pacifica's philosophies in the past.[/quote]

Well, given that none of the Pacificans replying here are those individuals in leadership I don't think it's entirely fair to beat them over the head with a philosophy they may not even know much about or agree with. (Beat over the head may be a bit strong but it's getting a bit late and my phraseology may be a bit degrading... or declining... it's deSOMETHINGing, that's for sure!)

[quote]
tbf they moved pretty much their entire upper tier to peacemode.
[/quote]

I haven't looked at the numbers too closely to be honest, but the upper tier is more likely to be active I'd think. I'm not saying you're wrong here, the peace mode movement could very well be a counter to Doomhouse or a standard part of their modern war plans, but I don't think there's much if any proof that their move was intended to be aggressive in nature.

[Cyber Nationz]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1296381272' post='2610951']
MK has a greater % of their alliance in peace mode than we do. Now granted, it is much easier for a smaller alliance to do so (and it wasn't meant to be a comparison), but it should highlight that it is not a very good sign of us being well "prepared" for anything.
[/quote]

U shouldnt have had any reason to.
Why the paranoia.

And if you had the slightest hunch about somebody rolling you.
why didnt you make a DoN on OWF.

[i]Now because of you, innocent civilians of clueless nations of blind following alliances of NPO are suffering. [/i]

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1296381155' post='2610948']
Unfortunately, most world faiths disagree with Archon. The greatest evil being claiming the throne of God. That's a very dangerous method of making friends and followers.
[/quote]
We do not recognize the "faiths" of the infidels!

[Maelstrom Vortex]

It's been fun debating this issue with the lot of you, I must sleep for now. I'll pick up in the morning somewhere.. over the rainbow.. and probably after several dozen new posts.

My point still stands.

Doom House is evil and they have been unable to prove otherwise.

@Azaghul

I'm sure you don't. Pity you weren't on earlier. Silly cultist.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Joe Izuzu]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1296380565' post='2610938']
They didn't go preempt on Nueva Vida. NV attacked an alliance our end. I don't recall any of the same people decrying NSO for its treatyless entries in previous conflicts or the people who helped FAN in the last war. Like I said, NPO goes neutral definitively and we have no incentive to do it.
[/quote]

You can claim that they declared in support of "coalition war", but the fact remains that they had no treaty obligation that required them to hit NV. Whereas NV most certainly did have a treaty obligation to uphold. Also, given that "coalition war" is simply an excuse for any alliance on one "side" to hit any other alliance on the other, NPO taking precautions by sending nations into hippy was simply prudent. Even though we weren't on either side, there was tons of taunting going on about why we weren't declaring, despite the fact we had no legitimate point of entry.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Joe Izuzu

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='Cyber Nationz' timestamp='1296381264' post='2610950']
Look maybe NPO and NpO were improving relations under the table.
and would surprise us all like the MK and TOP treaty
[/quote]

It wouldn't surprise me if they were. NPO spawned NpO after all and I think their more modern dislike for each other could be something that has slowly healed over time. I haven't seen anything to think that their relationship had improved to the point that they'd be willing to jump into one another's separate wars however.

[Joe Izuzu]

[quote name='Cyber Nationz' timestamp='1296381479' post='2610955']
U shouldnt have had any reason to.
Why the paranoia.

And if you had the slightest hunch about somebody rolling you.
why didnt you make a DoN on OWF.

[i]Now because of you, innocent civilians of clueless nations of blind following alliances of NPO are suffering. [/i]
[/quote]


Why would we post a DoN? Where were our conflicting treaty obligations?