Some basic understandings of this war

[Solaris]

[quote name='Acca Dacca' timestamp='1295542701' post='2586566']
You seem concentrated on Hoo for some reason, and seem to think that him doing something is making us look bad. He is a member, and he can do whatever he wants. He did not know we were going to overturn the initial statement, because usually our decisions are made from what we feel is right, this one was influenced by allies which shouldnt have happened in the first place. We corrected our mistake based solely on the concerns of the entire current Ragnarok government felt.

If you feel the need to think that Rok answers to only one person who tells us what is right and what is wrong like some other particular alliances, then I'm sorry you are stuck on that mindset.
[/quote]
I think a pretty important point we can learn here, is that there were communications distruptions, that lead us to believe we didn't have you opposing us in this war. Both sides to blame, of course.

I would personally think that would be under basic understandings regarding this conflict, but I would like to know if anyone disagrees.

Edited January 20, 2011 by Solaris

[Ashoka the Great]

OK, I'll bite.

[quote name='Rocky Horror' timestamp='1295539900' post='2586465']
Lennox spied on VE[/quote]

If one wishes to employ a rather broad definition of apying, then 'yes'. (See below.)

[quote]Dajobo sanctioned spying against MK and VE - MK kindly didn't roll NpO for the intent.[/quote]
I lean more toward the 'Dajobo was humoring Lennox' position. I know nothing about supposed 'spying' against MK, but I admit there are a lot of threads with a lot of nonsense that I can't be bothered to wade through.

[quote]RoK DID warn their treaty partners 24 hours in advance that they were going to defend Polar.[/quote]
Actually, Nordreich received notice of this nearly 48 hours in advance. I've checked various private government threads on Nordreich's forum, and the first time it was mentioned (that I've found, anyway) was on Tuesday, January 18 at 0714 Planet Bob Standard Time. [OOC] Or 8:14 a.m. Eastern Time, for those of you who can't figure that out.[/OOC]

I could provide a screenshot, but that would constitute treason against Nordreich. And of course anyone who so much as glanced at the image would be guilty of supporting spying.

[quote]Superfriends made their own decisions about who to attack, because that is their right as a bloc and a set of individual alliances.[/quote]

Of course.

[quote]I think it is safe to establish that VE started a defensive war against Polaris, following a government-sanctioned spy attempt.[/quote]

By 'government-sanctioned' you must be referring to VE, since the evil Polaris 'spy' is now resting quite comfortably within Viridia's tender embrace.

We should also ignore the fact that VE tried the exact same tactic on another alliance not too long ago. There is absolutely nothing suspicious about that.

So with those two caveats, then yes....it was clearly government-sanctioned.

[quote]RoK has connections to both sides of the web, but were guilted into chosing Polar's side because of Hoo's personal feelings.[/quote]
Members of Nordreich's government were informed of RoK's intentions at roughly the same time that Hoo left Ragnarok. (See above.) So, no.

EDIT: My mistake. This information was posted on Nordreich's forum approximately 10 hours after Hoo joined Polaris. If you like I could speak with the NoR government member who first informed us of this impending DoW in order to find out what time he was given this information. I rather suspect it will narrow the 'time gap' considerably, since the NoR government official who posted it wakes up at roughly the same time that he posted. (My guess is that he found out before going to bed and went to sleep with the intention of sharing it when he woke up. But I shall ask just to be sure.)

[quote]More objectively true facts to come, stay tuned to the no-spin zone.[/quote]
As I read that I put air quotes around 'objectively', 'true' and 'facts'.

Nice try, though.




EDIT: Minor edits above, and a [i]mea culpa[/i].

Edited January 20, 2011 by Ashoka the Great

[Acca Dacca]

Its like noone cared to read a simple [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=97239&view=findpost&p=2581284"]Post[/url] that pretty much let everyone in on what we were doing...

[Joe Izuzu]

[quote name='Rocky Horror' timestamp='1295539900' post='2586465']
It seems that alot of people are not [s]understanding some basic facts[/s] so gullible as to accept our propaganda of this war, so let us get a thread going. I will update it with submissions / posts as well.

[list] [*] Lennox [s]spied on[/s] operated as a mole for VE
[*] Dajobo [s]sanctioned spying against MK and VE[/s] joked around with someone he thought was a friend- MK [s]kindly didn't roll NpO for the intent[/s] had absolutely no horse in the race.
[*] RoK DID warn their treaty partners 24 hours in advance that they were going to defend Polar.
[*] Superfriends made their own decisions about who to attack, because that is their right as a bloc and a set of individual alliances.
[*] I think it is safe to establish that VE and Lennox [s]started a defensive war[/s] conspired to create a bogus CB out of whole cloth against Polaris, [s]following a government-sanctioned spy attempt[/s] as evidenced by the fact that Dajobo went to VE within 24 hours of receiving nonsensitive material from Lennox and VE refused to discuss the matter, having already implemented the pre-existing plan to roll Polar.
[*] RoK has connections to both sides of the web, [s]but were guilted into chosing Polar's side because of Hoo's personal feelings[/s] but chose to honor their MDoAP with Polar since Polar was aggresively attacked by an alliance with whom they have no treaty.
[*] More [s]objectively true facts[/s] blatant spin to come, stay tuned to the [s]no-spin[/s] centrifuge zone.[/list]

-Mello
[/quote]

Cleaned that up for you.


Also....

ITT MK and pals continue to whine, moan and castigate RoK's honorable decision to defend their MDoAP partner, despite SF members emphatically stating that SF has no problem with RoK's decision, just like MK and pals have done ad nauseam in RoK's declaration thread.


(edit: added strike-through to 2 words)

Edited January 20, 2011 by Joe Izuzu

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='Acca Dacca' timestamp='1295547569' post='2586743']
Its like noone cared to read a simple [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=97239&view=findpost&p=2581284"]Post[/url] that pretty much let everyone in on what we were doing...
[/quote]
Never mind that the RoK/NpO 'mash-up' image started appearing in RoK members' sigs well before the DoW.

[The Big Bad]

[quote name='Rocky Horror' timestamp='1295539900' post='2586465']
It seems that alot of people are not understanding some basic facts of this war, so let us get a thread going. I will update it with submissions / posts as well.

[list] [*] Lennox spied on VE
[*] Dajobo sanctioned spying against MK and VE - MK kindly didn't roll NpO for the intent.
[*] RoK DID warn their treaty partners 24 hours in advance that they were going to defend Polar.
[*] Superfriends made their own decisions about who to attack, because that is their right as a bloc and a set of individual alliances.
[*] I think it is safe to establish that VE started a defensive war against Polaris, following a government-sanctioned spy attempt.
[*] RoK has connections to both sides of the web, but were guilted into chosing Polar's side because of Hoo's personal feelings.
[*] More objectively true facts to come, stay tuned to the no-spin zone.[/list]

-Mello
[/quote]

Are you like the last person to find out this wall a set up? Not even VE is bothering to pretend Polar started this anymore.

[Goldie]

The 24 hours thing is true, yes (not going to check times of things but it is in the ballpark). It is also true that before that, Rok had told us that they were ok with what we were doing, and they had been consulted the entire time.

[Goldie]

[quote name='The Big Bad' timestamp='1295547966' post='2586753']
Are you like the last person to find out this wall a set up? Not even VE is bothering to pretend Polar started this anymore.
[/quote]

Err, what? No, this was pretty much Lennox and Dajobo putting something in our lap that we ran like hell with.

[Rocky Horror]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1295547381' post='2586738']
OK, I'll bite.

If one wishes to employ a rather broad definition of apying, then 'yes'. (See below.)

I lean more toward the 'Dajobo was humoring Lennox' position. I know nothing about supposed 'spying' against MK, but I admit there are a lot of threads with a lot of nonsense that I can't be bothered to wade through.

Actually, Nordreich received notice of this nearly 48 hours in advance. I've checked various private government threads on Nordreich's forum, and the first time it was mentioned (that I've found, anyway) was on Tuesday, January 18 at 0714 Planet Bob Standard Time. [OOC] Or 8:14 a.m. Eastern Time, for those of you who can't figure that out.[/OOC]

I could provide a screenshot, but that would constitute treason against Nordreich. And of course anyone who so much as glanced at the image would be guilty of supporting spying.

Of course.

By 'government-sanctioned' you must be referring to VE, since the evil Polaris 'spy' is now resting quite comfortably within Viridia's tender embrace.

We should also ignore the fact that VE tried the exact same tactic on another alliance not too long ago. There is absolutely nothing suspicious about that.

So with those two caveats, then yes....it was clearly government-sanctioned.

Members of Nordreich's government were informed of RoK's intentions at roughly the same time that Hoo left Ragnarok. (See above.) So, no.

EDIT: My mistake. This information was posted on Nordreich's forum approximately 10 hours after Hoo joined Polaris. If you like I could speak with the NoR government member who first informed us of this impending DoW in order to find out what time he was given this information. I rather suspect it will narrow the 'time gap' considerably, since the NoR government official who posted it wakes up at roughly the same time that he posted. (My guess is that he found out before going to bed and went to sleep with the intention of sharing it when he woke up. But I shall ask just to be sure.)


As I read that I put air quotes around 'objectively', 'true' and 'facts'.

Nice try, though.

EDIT: Minor edits above, and a [i]mea culpa[/i].
[/quote]What I read here is "well I have some game-changing evidence but I'm not going to show you because you are bad".


[quote name='The Big Bad' timestamp='1295547966' post='2586753']
Are you like the last person to find out this wall a set up? Not even VE is bothering to pretend Polar started this anymore.
[/quote]You heard it here first, folks: this wall a set up.

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='Rocky Horror' timestamp='1295548611' post='2586777']What I read here is "well I have some game-changing evidence but I'm not going to show you because you are bad".[/quote]

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/gfgraham/Cybernations/roknotice.png[/IMG]

Apologies for the editing.

<cue the 'Well that could mean anything!' or 'That's inconclusive!' argument>


EDIT: And now I'm a spy. I hope you're happy. Jerk.

Edited January 20, 2011 by Ashoka the Great

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1295548191' post='2586761']
Err, what? No, this was pretty much Lennox and Dajobo putting something in our lap that we ran like hell with.
[/quote]
Opportunism is not a bad thing, especially when it advances you agenda. Where it fails in the present situation is the fact that the primary culprit (Lennox) was rewarded by VE for presenting the opportunity to VE. I have witnessed much rage expressed towards RoK in the last hours and I struggle to understand what moral footing VE has to express this rage. Lennox initiated the spying, Lennox released information from VE and yet Lennox is offered membership and safety by the alliance he spied on.
Has to world changed so much that alliances now welcome those who spy against them with open arms?
How can VE accept Lennox with open arms and at the same time destroy his co-conspirator?

[Rocky Horror]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1295549494' post='2586800']
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/gfgraham/Cybernations/roknotice.png[/IMG]

Apologies for the editing.

<cue the 'Well that could mean anything!' or 'That's inconclusive!' argument>


EDIT: And now I'm a spy. I hope you're happy. Jerk.
[/quote]Cool. I don't see how it is a game-changer though, unless RoK can confirm that Hoo is literally a child.


[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1295549798' post='2586806']
Opportunism is not a bad thing, especially when it advances you agenda. Where it fails in the present situation is the fact that the primary culprit (Lennox) was rewarded by VE for presenting the opportunity to VE. I have witnessed much rage expressed towards RoK in the last hours and I struggle to understand what moral footing VE has to express this rage. Lennox initiated the spying, Lennox released information from VE and yet Lennox is offered membership and safety by the alliance he spied on.
Has to world changed so much that alliances now welcome those who spy against them with open arms?
How can VE accept Lennox with open arms and at the same time destroy his co-conspirator?
[/quote]Pretty good baiting imo, 7/10. They don't have a personal grudge with Lennox, and why would they? He just solidified NpO's intentions and gave them a CB against them, there's nothing unfair about that since the line between wishing VE's demise and affecting it is a thin one. All that was stopping NpO rolling VE was the fact that they don't have the power to. Knowing this and receiving it in the form of a veritable CB is perfect, in which case why not thank Lennox?

Edited January 20, 2011 by Rocky Horror

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Rocky Horror' timestamp='1295550520' post='2586827']
Cool. I don't see how it is a game-changer though, unless RoK can confirm that Hoo is literally a child.


Pretty good trolling imo, 7/10. They don't have a personal grudge with Lennox, and why would they? He just solidified NpO's intentions and gave them a CB against them, there's nothing unfair about that since the line between wishing VE's demise and affecting it is a thin one. All that was stopping NpO rolling VE was the fact that they don't have the power to. Knowing this and receiving it in the form of a veritable CB is perfect, in which case why not thank Lennox?
[/quote]
Thats an interesting take on a spy. If I understand your position correctly, if a person spies on your alliance and the result of that activity (universally considered an agressive act of war by the VE side)ends up being a positive result for your alliance the spy who attacked you to start with should be rewarded. This seems to be a major shift in world policy imo.

[Rocky Horror]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1295551475' post='2586880']
Thats an interesting take on a spy. If I understand your position correctly, if a person spies on your alliance and the result of that activity (universally considered an agressive act of war by the VE side)ends up being a positive result for your alliance the spy who attacked you to start with should be rewarded. This seems to be a major shift in world policy imo.
[/quote]Well I guess you can accept anyone you want into your alliance unless he's wanted by someone else for a good reason. Failing in his duties as a spy for Polar is not a good reason.

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='Rocky Horror' timestamp='1295550520' post='2586827']
Cool. I don't see how it is a game-changer though, unless RoK can confirm that Hoo is literally a child.[/quote]

Interesting that you called this information both a 'game-changer' and 'not a game-changer' in the space of a few posts.

You contend that RoK made a more or less last-minute, guilt-inspired decision to defend Polaris after Hoo departed. I actually heard much the same thing. In fact, I heard it [i]personally[/i] from Hoo himself when he and I last spoke. (Fun fact: It was Hoo and I who negotiated the treaty between Ragnarok and Nordreich.)

After this, I spoke with RoK's Emperor (among other government members) who contradicted what Hoo was saying, although one of them did say that, in his opinion, there was some mis-communication that had gone on.

And then, after a bit of looking on my own forum, I discovered that we had in fact been advised of Ragnarok's attack on PC approximately 40 hours before it occurred, and only a few hours after Hoo left Ragnarok for Polaris.

You are welcome to argue with my interpretation. However, I do not believe you can deny that I heard information that would have cast an ally in a rather unfavorable light, and I continued to dig until I was satisfied that I arrived at the truth. It's called [i]due diligence[/i]. It's what people do when presented with conflicting accounts.

I cannot speak to why Hoo said what he did, except that perhaps he misunderstood one government member saying "Let's stay out of this" as representing the opinion of the entire government. But this is all conjecture. I don't [i]know[/i] that this is what happened, but in light of the available evidence it makes much more sense than "Ragnarok felt guilty."

[The Big Bad]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1295548191' post='2586761']
Err, what? No, this was pretty much Lennox and Dajobo putting something in our lap that we ran like hell with.
[/quote]

They put jack in your lap. Lennox did what dozens of other people do on a regular basis and made very poor attempt to make it look like he was spying for Polar. Something he freely admits he was not really doing. VE knew it was not true and attacked anyway. Its pathetic to see an alliance like yours dancing to the tune of one person. If your willing to go along with a set up then you do it your damn self. That would avoid you looking like comeplete idiots when the "spy" admits he was not working for anyone and just did it for the LULZ. Your not a fracking micro alliance, your suppose to make your own way not dance to tune of people who get off on making fools of you. I find it interesting that when speaking with those closest to VE that the line tends to be, they are idiots but, at least we have a war. If you would have done the set up yourselves you have controlled events, had the war, and not come off looking like fools. This is not rocket science boys but, when you let someone set something up, you have to make sure they are not going to take a huge dump on you the next day. Does no one leading the alliance have and ounce of common sense?

[The Big Bad]

[quote name='Rocky Horror' timestamp='1295551708' post='2586896']
Well I guess you can accept anyone you want into your alliance unless he's wanted by someone else for a good reason. Failing in his duties as a spy for Polar is not a good reason.
[/quote]

He was not working for Polar as he has made clear. He wanted a war and was able to find someone dumb enough to buy his BS. The fact he has made VE look like idiots is just icing on the cake for him.

[Tautology]

[quote name='Rocky Horror' timestamp='1295540586' post='2586489']
[b]1.[/b] Rok announce they are not entering the war.[/quote]
Sorry it took me so long to see this. RoK didn't announce they weren't entering the war. VE announced that RoK wasn't entering the war although RoK had never told VE that RoK wasn't entering the war. I don't know why VE did that.

I like your topic.

[Teddyyo]

Of course, this person is open to differing opinions, knowing that others may be his equal. It is clear that he knows everything there is to know here, too, and that he cannot be wrong.


OOC: He's advertising opening up his own "listen to me talk" IRC channel.

[Rocky Horror]

[quote name='Tautology' timestamp='1295553214' post='2586950']
Sorry it took me so long to see this. RoK didn't announce they weren't entering the war. VE announced that RoK wasn't entering the war although RoK had never told VE that RoK wasn't entering the war. I don't know why VE did that.

I like your topic.
[/quote]Interesting, though does not explain Hoo's hissy fit.


[quote name='Teddyyo' timestamp='1295553329' post='2586955']
Of course, this person is open to differing opinions, knowing that others may be his equal. It is clear that he knows everything there is to know here, too, and that he cannot be wrong.


OOC: He's advertising opening up his own "listen to me talk" IRC channel.
[/quote]Yeah man?

[Rampage3]

I have been silent through this. Interesting how that allows people to speak on your behalf. So allow me to set the record straight.

I was on when Rok was first contacted by VE, and I was also contacted by many others who will remain nameless but obviously supported VE's position. Given the information I had at the time, I was very irritated by Polar. I HATE spying. HATE it. As someone who has had to endure a forum move due to hacking and who has warred himself over spying, it is one of the least favorite things of mine in the game. But I never authorized (nor COULD I) war against Polar and I told VE and SF that Tautology would be on in the morning and I would make certain he contacted them both.

Taut contacted Polar for comment (VE knew he would ) and before we even heard back from Polaris, war was on. You will likely hear that we weren't adamant enough about coming in for Polar and that was why VE attacked. The truth is that people heard what they wanted to hear and while we were getting information, people jumped to conclusions and their war-screens. The risk you take when you do that is that you have no idea what we will do yet. Remember, for anyone confused by this point, that everyone we are allied with (including VE) knows that defending Polar if they are attacked is and has been an oft-repeated and never-repealed GIVEN; you had better have explicit permission from our Emperor if you plan to hit them and hope we will stand idly by.

Some members of Rok (including Hoo) were dismayed by the delay. There is blame to go around in gov for that, I am prepared to take my share of it, but we NEVER said we would not do so. NEVER.

We declared our intention to our allies the NEXT day (long delay, huh?). The rest is mostly posturing in my eyes but in the end, we did what we were supposed to do, what we stand for, and what we never said we would not do. VE jumped, that was their prerogative, but when they took others in to which we were not tied, they KNEW that our policy (from our beginnings) is that we hit outsiders jumping in. VE can be angry I suppose, but I say to them: If the roles were reversed and Polar hit them with homies, we would tap STA (for example) for jumping in. See how that works?

I knew people would be pissed, that things would be said, but anyone who has a treaty with us if they are honest with themselves, should take heart in knowing that even if they make a mistake (or in this case, trust and befriend the wrong person) and are swimming against the tide, we will jump in and help you.

I am done with this on here. People who know me can find me easily enough.

O/ROK

Edited January 20, 2011 by Rampage3

[Letum]

"Objectively true fact" does not include speculation on motives or advance an argument on justification, both of which the OP does. Even in the absence of those, this could not possibly be presented as a "no-spin" zone, as you can easily construct the perception you want simply by wording your "facts" in an ideal way, or by choosing which "facts" to present (after all, slanting is the origin of Bias, not lies).

I hate it when people do this. Even if you believe your view of events is correct, and most people do end up believing so, even if only from the pressures of cognitive dissonance, at least recognize that you are presenting conclusions that have an underlying argument, rather than taking the conclusion as an accepted premise.

[cookavich]

[quote name='Rampage3' timestamp='1295554642' post='2587005']
I have been silent through this. Interesting how that allows people to speak on your behalf. So allow me to set the record straight.

I was on when Rok was first contacted by VE, and I was also contacted by many others who will remain nameless but obviously supported VE's position. Given the information I had at the time, I was very irritated by Polar. I HATE spying. HATE it. As someone who has had to endure a forum move due to hacking and who has warred himself over spying, it is one of the least favorite things of mine in the game. But I never authorized (nor COULD I) war against Polar and I told VE and SF that Tautology would be on in the morning and I would make certain he contacted them both.

Taut contacted Polar for comment (VE knew he would ) and before we even heard back from Polaris, war was on. You will likely hear that we weren't adamant enough about coming in for Polar and that was why VE attacked. The truth is that people heard what they wanted to hear and while we were getting information, people jumped to conclusions and their war-screens. The risk you take when you do that is that you have no idea what we will do yet. Remember, for anyone confused by this point, that everyone we are allied with (including VE) knows that defending Polar if they are attacked is and has been an oft-repeated and never-repealed GIVEN; you had better have explicit permission from our Emperor if you plan to hit them and hope we will stand idly by.

Some members of Rok (including Hoo) were dismayed by the delay. There is blame to go around in gov for that, I am prepared to take my share of it, but we NEVER said we would not do so. NEVER.

We declared our intention to our allies the NEXT day (long delay, huh?). The rest is mostly posturing in my eyes but in the end, we did what we were supposed to do, what we stand for, and what we never said we would not do. VE jumped, that was their prerogative, but when they took others in to which we were not tied, they KNEW that our policy (from our beginnings) is that we hit outsiders jumping in. VE can be angry I suppose, but I say to them: If the roles were reversed and Polar hit them with homies, we would tap STA (for example) for jumping in. See how that works?

I knew people would be pissed, that things would be said, but anyone who has a treaty with us if they are honest with themselves, should take heart in knowing that even if they make a mistake (or in this case, trust and befriend the wrong person) and are swimming against the tide, we will jump in and help you.

I am done with this on here. People who know me can find me easily enough.

O/ROK
[/quote]Thank you for this, Rampage. It is a lot harder to create a false narrative when the truth is out in the open.

[nippy]

[quote name='The Big Bad' timestamp='1295552452' post='2586920']
They put jack in your lap. Lennox did what dozens of other people do on a regular basis and made very poor attempt to make it look like he was spying for Polar. Something he freely admits he was not really doing. VE knew it was not true and attacked anyway. Its pathetic to see an alliance like yours dancing to the tune of one person. If your willing to go along with a set up then you do it your damn self. That would avoid you looking like comeplete idiots when the "spy" admits he was not working for anyone and just did it for the LULZ. Your not a fracking micro alliance, your suppose to make your own way not dance to tune of people who get off on making fools of you. I find it interesting that when speaking with those closest to VE that the line tends to be, they are idiots but, at least we have a war. If you would have done the set up yourselves you have controlled events, had the war, and not come off looking like fools. This is not rocket science boys but, when you let someone set something up, you have to make sure they are not going to take a huge dump on you the next day. Does no one leading the alliance have and ounce of common sense?
[/quote]

Oh look, it seems TBB has come out of his hole to contribute one of his bi-monthly badly formatted blobs of text that reek of vitriol despite his perpetual damnation to the depths of irrelevance. Will he see his shadow, or won't he?

[Rocky Horror]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1295554887' post='2587017']
"Objectively true fact" does not include speculation on motives or advance an argument on justification, both of which the OP does. Even in the absence of those, this could not possibly be presented as a "no-spin" zone, as you can easily construct the perception you want simply by wording your "facts" in an ideal way, or by choosing which "facts" to present (after all, slanting is the origin of Bias, not lies).

I hate it when people do this. Even if you believe your view of events is correct, and most people do end up believing so, even if only from the pressures of cognitive dissonance, at least recognize that you are presenting conclusions that have an underlying argument, rather than taking the conclusion as an accepted premise.
[/quote]Luckily, it was a parody of the other thread with the [i]exact same name[/i].