ChairmanHal Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1295015024' post='2575052'] Yeah. It's pretty unfortunate that MFO is getting a spanking over the one guy, but for me, we can keep the protest signs in he closet until this actally gets out of hand.[/quote] You raise a good point here. I was fine with FAN going out and making a point. If FAN had decided that ZIing the whole lot of them at MFO was "justice", or demanded reparations/blood money that would have taken months to pay, then that would have probably been going too far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Apocalypse Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 [quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1295019740' post='2575104'] So when MCXA declares war on VE for this http://www.cybernations.net/search_wars.asp?search=436085&Extended=1 you will be cool with that? [/quote] I think a lot of people would be cool with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChairmanHal Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 [quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1295019358' post='2575096'] I totally understand that point. However, there is at least an inquisition into whether the actions were sanctioned or rogue. Don't get me wrong, FAN has every right to defend their territory as they see fit. I am just not one to favor using a Sledgehammer when you can use nail clippers. [/quote] This is the very sort of attitude that needs to cease. We as a world spend so much time sitting around in private IRC channels "working out our problems" that we're slowly sucking the life out of the place. [i]OOC: This is a nation [i]simulation[/i] game...you really don't need to be Hillary Clinton 24/7.[/i] More shoot, less talk, with everything that might imply, with the proviso that people aren't going out of their way to curbstomp the life out of people through war or through reparations or both. It isn't that hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 [quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1295020253' post='2575112'] I think a lot of people would be cool with that. [/quote] I'll stop by that party for a beer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirMe Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 [quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1295020630' post='2575116'] This is the very sort of attitude that needs to cease. We as a world spend so much time sitting around in private IRC channels "working out our problems" that we're slowly sucking the life out of the place. [i]OOC: This is a nation [i]simulation[/i] game...you really don't need to be Hillary Clinton 24/7.[/i] More shoot, less talk, with everything that might imply, with the proviso that people aren't going out of their way to curbstomp the life out of people through war or through reparations or both. It isn't that hard. [/quote] Wait, so fact checking is bad? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Wallace Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 [quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1295019740' post='2575104'] So when MCXA declares war on VE for this http://www.cybernations.net/search_wars.asp?search=436085&Extended=1 you will be cool with that? [/quote] What? My point was that the peanut gallery seems willing to mindlessly hail certain individuals/alliances for any and all actions they take even if they are deemed excessive by many alliances while chastising others who do far less in reaction to similar offenses. Personally I don't have a problem with what FAN did and I think this would be a better place if their brand of diplomacy was considered standard practice by all alliances. As for the VE rogue/ghost attacking a nation from MCXA, I'm not sure what that's all about, but MCXA is free to respond however they think is best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Apocalypse Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 (edited) [quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1295020630' post='2575116'] This is the very sort of attitude that needs to cease. We as a world spend so much time sitting around in private IRC channels "working out our problems" that we're slowly sucking the life out of the place. [i]OOC: This is a nation [i]simulation[/i] game...you really don't need to be Hillary Clinton 24/7.[/i] More shoot, less talk, with everything that might imply, with the proviso that people aren't going out of their way to curbstomp the life out of people through war or through reparations or both. It isn't that hard. [/quote] I am of the opinion that we do not in fact need less diplomatic talks etc. We need less successful diplomatic talks. People are too concerned about their PR or their image, so they enter diplomatic talks trying to come out smelling like fresh roses. We need less people willing to compromise and more people willing to be abrasive and to engage in a bit of old fashioned mudslinging. This [i]diplomacy[/i] you speak of nowadays is far too tame. Edited January 14, 2011 by Johnny Apocalypse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayatollah Bromeini Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 So does this mean that none of those children will get their guns? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CDPII Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 What is all the !@#$%*ing and moaning about? I don't get it. You go around acting like an idiot and you may get away with it for awhile till you pick the wrong target then *BAM* you get clubbed for being stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 (edited) [quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1295019358' post='2575096'] I totally understand that point. However, there is at least an inquisition into whether the actions were sanctioned or rogue. Don't get me wrong, FAN has every right to defend their territory as they see fit. I am just not one to favor using a Sledgehammer when you can use nail clippers. [/quote] If FAN wanted to fact check first that would of been fine, but the responsibility for clarifying that someone has gone rogue and is no longer part of the alliance falls on those who have the rogue as a member when the attacks happen. If it was in doubt whether this was ever a member or just a someone ghosting their AA they should of looked into it first, but if someone is a member of an alliance and is still flying the AA when they make rogue attacks their alliance can still be held accountable, which is why those going rogue who care about their previous alliance first switch their AA. I can understand your point, but I don't think someone should be expected to use a nail clipper to solve a problem if they find the sledgehammer more convenient in the situation at hand. I don't consider alliances unjust based on whether they like war or make the decision to go to war easily, what I think reflects whether an alliance is unjust or not is how they treat their beaten opponents. I think FAN treated MFO fairly in this situation by giving offering them fair terms right away, as it was clear they had won this pretty fast. At the same time FAN stood up for the rights of their members in an honorable way. edit: clarification. Edited January 14, 2011 by Methrage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 [quote name='CDPII' timestamp='1295022251' post='2575133'] What is all the !@#$%*ing and moaning about? I don't get it. You go around acting like an idiot and you may get away with it for awhile till you pick the wrong target then *BAM* you get clubbed for being stupid. [/quote] MFO hasn't been going around acting like an idiot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocko Homo Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 Much talk exists about all this for a single terrorist action. I must correct you on this very key point. This was the first time a terrorist attack has been performed on FAN where we had ACTIONABLE INTELLIGENCE regarding the identity of the evildoer(s). The events where money simply disappeared or nefarious deeds were perpetrated on our peace loving souls but by unknown persons are not being considered. are not being considered. [quote name='Comrade Trotsky' timestamp='1295021628' post='2575129'] So does this mean that none of those children will get their guns? [/quote] Less than 3 hours after we forcibly opened diplomatic channels, MFO and FAN reached an amicable resolution to our mutual concern. http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=97068 All of FAN is greatly joyed that the over active ADD seeds that have sprung from our loins will now have the firepower that all growing cubs[s] need[/s] deserve. We were also very pleased to find that the terrorist tumor that was growing within MFO was limited in scope and that radiation therapy was not required to successfully treat it. Much thanks to JoshuaR for dealing with this issue swiftly (although being a bit swifter may have avoided all this in the first place). We offer our [i]sincere[/i] hope that MFO thrives and that the terrorist element that once thrived within it's boarders is fully eradicated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Apocalypse Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Jocko Homo' timestamp='1295022711' post='2575139'] Much thanks to JoshuaR for dealing with this issue swiftly (although being a bit swifter may have avoided all this in the first place). We offer our [i]sincere[/i] hope that MFO thrives and that the terrorist element that once thrived within it's boarders is fully eradicated. [/quote] However pleased that I am that the terrorist threat has been neutralised perhaps a little patience from your end may have also avoided this. Do not try and cover up that you escalated this. Edited January 14, 2011 by Johnny Apocalypse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocko Homo Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 [quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1295022418' post='2575135'] ...but the responsibility for clarifying that someone has gone rogue and is no longer part of the alliance falls on (FAN).[/quote] Sorry, but you are absolutely, 100% wrong. If a 1000+ day member of your alliance goes around and attacks people then you damn well better make sure everybody knows that it is unauthorized. At the very least his war slots need to be filled up by YOU. If a 10 day seniority nation did this then everybody, including FAN would be questioning who this nation is, we are no fools, but a 1000+ day alliance seniority nation? Sorry, the bird don't fly. People need to man up and accept responsibility for their actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Jocko Homo' timestamp='1295023118' post='2575146'] Sorry, but you are absolutely, 100% wrong. If a 1000+ day member of your alliance goes around and attacks people then you damn well better make sure everybody knows that it is unauthorized. At the very least his war slots need to be filled up by YOU. If a 10 day seniority nation did this then everybody, including FAN would be questioning who this nation is, we are no fools, but a 1000+ day alliance seniority nation? Sorry, the bird don't fly. People need to man up and accept responsibility for their actions. [/quote] What I meant to say was the responsibility falls on the alliance harboring the rogue to clarify they are no longer a member, but seems I phrased it badly. Edited January 14, 2011 by Methrage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CDPII Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1295022647' post='2575138'] MFO hasn't been going around acting like an idiot. [/quote] IMO a 1000+ day old nation flying an MFO flag committing an act of terrorism on FAN is classic idiot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 [quote name='CDPII' timestamp='1295023775' post='2575156'] IMO a 1000+ day old nation flying an MFO flag committing an act of terrorism on FAN is classic idiot. [/quote] ". . . and you may get away with it for awhile till . . ." You imply MFO's been at this for weeks or something and now they're getting their's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocko Homo Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 [quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1295023023' post='2575143'] However pleased I am that the terrorist threat has been neutralised perhaps a little patience from your end may have also avoided this. Do not try and cover up that you escalated this. [/quote] [i]We caught a thief red handed[/i] and yet you are upset we didn't show patience. I say you are wrong. It is the repeated cycle of [i]hand slapping[/i] and [i]stern talking's to[/i] that enables these injustaces to continue. The act we just did will do more "avoid" this happening in the future than 10,000 lines of IRC logs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 [quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1295023023' post='2575143'] However pleased that I am that the terrorist threat has been neutralised perhaps a little patience from your end may have also avoided this. Do not try and cover up that you escalated this. [/quote] What's wrong with them escalating it? I don't think FAN has tried covering that up and if no one was willing to escalate anything there would be no wars in CN, here FAN at least had a good reason for escalating, which is protecting their members against spy attacks. I think these types of responses are justified due to the nature of how spy attacks work, if you don't respond like FAN did it opens up your members to get spied on as people will think they can talk their way out of it if caught. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Apocalypse Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 [quote name='CDPII' timestamp='1295023775' post='2575156'] IMO a 1000+ day old nation flying an MFO flag committing an act of terrorism on FAN is classic idiot. [/quote] Yet you felt the need to punish the entirety of MFO. Am I to assume this how FAN will react to all incidents similar to this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocko Homo Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1295023888' post='2575157'] ". . . and you may get away with it for awhile till . . ." You imply MFO's been at this for weeks or something and now they're getting their's. [/quote] We don't know [i]who[/i] has been at it each time. We can only say that this one time we had actionable intelligence and acted on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardus Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 [quote name='Mr. Smyth' timestamp='1294984272' post='2574753'] Nope. They never contacted us. [/quote] Fourteen days in and we've already got the post of the year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocko Homo Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1295024131' post='2575165'] Yet you felt the need to punish the entirety of MFO. Am I to assume this how FAN will react to all incidents similar to this? [/quote] If a 1000+ day alliance seniority member attacks a FAN nation and then almost 48 hours passes with no word to the contrary then yes, We will assume it was an intentional and sanctioned act and we will respond accordingly. Anyone who doesn't is a fool or a coward. We are neither. It's a tough world out there and mommy isn't picking up after you and wiping your butt anymore. We were more than patient, we waited almost 48 hours for a solution that was ultimately solved in under 3 hours. That's 18X longer than was necessary. That is restraint and patience. And if we are as bloodthirsty and evil as you are implying then this action would not have been successfully ended in under 3 hours. Edited January 14, 2011 by Jocko Homo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpol777 Posted January 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 AirMe I understand your point, but from my perspective it doesn't work. FAN does not open diplomatic channels when attacked. Our SOP is to recognise the threat and attack it. It has always been that way and whether that is common throughout the world or not, that should be expected from us. In this case there is more at work than what is being seen. Once the threat from MFO was determined, it was handled accordingly. If it had been greater than it turned out to be we were prepared for it. Remember. It's not paranoia if they're really out to get you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Apocalypse Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 [quote name='Jocko Homo' timestamp='1295024020' post='2575163'] [i]We caught a thief red handed[/i] and yet you are upset we didn't show patience. I say you are wrong. It is the repeated cycle of [i]hand slapping[/i] and [i]stern talking's to[/i] that enables these injustaces to continue. The act we just did will do more "avoid" this happening in the future than 10,000 lines of IRC logs. [/quote] You speak as if this was an action sanctioned by MFO Govt. I say you are wrong and that this is the action of a rogue nation. Punishing the entire alliance for the actions of a single rogue will not avoid this happening in the future. [quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1295024099' post='2575164'] What's wrong with them escalating it? I don't think FAN has tried covering that up and if no one was willing to escalate anything there would be no wars in CN, here FAN at least had a good reason for escalating, which is protecting their members against spy attacks. I think these types of responses are justified due to the nature of how spy attacks work, if you don't respond like FAN did it opens up your members to get spied on as people will think they can talk their way out of it if caught. [/quote] FAN are trying to paint this situation as if MFO as a whole are in the wrong, where as it is simply the case of one rogue nation acting beyond orders. For someone who previously stood up for the little guy you certainly are full of !@#$. [quote name='Jocko Homo' timestamp='1295024132' post='2575166'] We don't know [i]who[/i] has been at it each time. We can only say that this one time we had actionable intelligence and acted on it. [/quote] Your intelligence is faulty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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