Brotherhood of Steel Declaration of War

[Sooner]

Walford is back and Damsky is attacking a VE protectorate... what else is new, CN?

[BloodFury]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1293801321' post='2559205']
That's kinda funny considering the cited CB is about something that in no way shape or form involves the OP.
[/quote]

He didn't like the way they were conducting business so he chose to opt for the form of diplomacy that involves throwing pixels at each other. So it very much does involve the OP.

[Bordiga]

I'm shocked that you haven't recruited anyone for your non-existent tech-raiding alliance yet Damsky. Hopefully this adventure will abort that project.

Good luck Celestial Being.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='BloodFury' timestamp='1293866210' post='2559924']
He didn't like the way they were conducting business so he chose to opt for the form of diplomacy that involves throwing pixels at each other. So it very much does involve the OP.
[/quote]
That's one way of looking at it.

Another way is to say that he objected to CB protecting someone from tech raids that he couldn't even raid himself nor had ever had any contact with. So he decided to behave as the World Police (tm) and hit them for doing things he didn't like.

He forgot that when you want to act as the World Police, you need to actually have guns to back up your laws.

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='Walford' timestamp='1293778304' post='2559074']
You couldn't be more wrong. Since the end of the Third Great War 3 1/2 years ago, the number of nations has been stagnant and has even shrunk. During the war, the number of non-aligned nations alone dropped by half. Several significant alliances disappeared from the Planet and all of their nations went with them rather than be present under the paradigm that has been dominant ever since: Might Makes Right.

Prior to that time, non-aligned nations that minded their own biz were largely left alone. There were actually hidden alliances amongst the non-aligned; there would only be a dozen nations with the same alliance affiliation lurking out there, with their buddies suddenly flying the same flag in time of war. There were small bands of vigilantes and rogues taking on large alliances, then disappearing again. There were singular large nations who went nearly a year without seeing any war at all.

There was a place for eccentric players who wanted nothing of our alliance system and they were not driven from the planet by cretins like you, destroying nations that took months to build in a matter of hours merely to alleviate boredom.

The non-aligned are about 15% of all total nations. Now, 10% of all non-aligned nations are in anarchy. One-third of them are in Peace Mode. Their average Nation Strength is about 700. I recently lost my most recent nation of nearly a year because I was having trouble getting and keeping trades. And my native resources were Aluminum and Silver. There was a time when one could have just about any combination and would never go more than a week without full trades. The level of rhetoric in these forums was of the highest level; eloquent, complex and taken seriously. Diplomacy was the order of the day and there was a palpable sense of decency. War was seen as a risk when diplomacy failed rather than the main object of amusement that it is now.

I have asked this before and I ask again: Is this a nation simulation that should have a broad appeal or is it a one-dimensional war-game that can in the end only appeal to those with a short attention span? If it's the latter, Cyber Nations is gonna need to get "kewl" graphics and sound-effects. If it's the former, we need to consider making this world a welcome place and give new players a chance to breathe rather than pouncing upon them so quickly.

I for one am not optimistic. What we have is a broken world in which a cabal of tyrants defeated democracies of the world, then promptly turned on each other. As the aftermath festers, we have maggots feeding on each others' corpses because there's not much else left to pick over.

The only way civilization can be restore is for there to be a consensus to restore it. I have made suggestions before as to how this can be accomplished, but will leave it to others to offer their own.
[/quote]

Coincidentally, after GWIII there were longer times in between wars, leading to a greater amount of boredom in peace time. The freedoms of nations were also oppressed by the Hegemony and those that broke it's laws were placed on ZI lists. Even today, the freedoms of nations are being repressed by alliances such as NpO, CB and all the other faux-moralists out there.

You claim that this world should have "broader appeal" beyond war. I do not know many people who find nation-building enjoyable, and many find it quite dull. Politics is not something the average nation ruler can experience, it is a realm for the elite of CN.

And please, spare me the lecture about how the unaligned of the world are being oppressed. They contribute nothing and are almost always inactive. They are far outnumbered by active, contributing (a.k.a those in alliances) members so for every one unaligned that leaves how many active nations do you think leave because of boredom? Of the nations that have been lost since GWIII the majority are not unaligned because there has never been 20k unaligned nations.

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1293889516' post='2560021']
That's one way of looking at it.

Another way is to say that he objected to CB protecting someone from tech raids that he couldn't even raid himself nor had ever had any contact with. So he decided to behave as the World Police (tm) and hit them for doing things he didn't like.

He forgot that when you want to act as the World Police, you need to actually have guns to back up your laws.
[/quote]

How am I the world police? I am not the one oppressing people's rights and threatening them with destruction if they don't go along with my ideals.

Edited January 1, 2011 by Mr Damsky

[kulomascovia]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1293905112' post='2560164']
Coincidentally, after GWIII there were longer times in between wars, leading to a greater amount of boredom in peace time. The freedoms of nations were also oppressed by the Hegemony and those that broke it's laws were placed on ZI lists. Even today, the freedoms of nations are being repressed by alliances such as NpO, CB and all the other faux-moralists out there.

You claim that this world should have "broader appeal" beyond war. I do not know many people who find nation-building enjoyable, and many find it quite dull. Politics is not something the average nation ruler can experience, it is a realm for the elite of CN.

And please, spare me the lecture about how the unaligned of the world are being oppressed. They contribute nothing and are almost always inactive. They are far outnumbered by active, contributing (a.k.a those in alliances) members so for every one unaligned that leaves how many active nations do you think leave because of boredom? Of the nations that have been lost since GWIII the majority are not unaligned because there has never been 20k unaligned nations.
[/quote]

Damsky, there are many people that find nation building enjoyable. Just look around the forums; how many people do you see actively participating in politics or just simply visit the forums? Not much compared to the 20k nations currently in existence. What keeps the majority of those non-active participants around? Nation building. I've made this point before. The idea that more wars = more fun is a silly one. Wars are a time of major nation loss. People blame stagnation for the decreasing number of nations on CN but the largest decrease in nations come during major wars. This again supplements the idea that many people find nation building enjoyable and that losing large amounts of nation strength in a destructive war does not help retain nations in Planet Bob.

You claim that unaligned nations contribute nothing. To what exactly do they not contribute? Are they not part of the community as well? As I said before,the actively participating members of Planet Bob are outnumbered by those that don't quite care. So what's the difference between an unaligned nations that doesn't participate or contribute to politics and an aligned nation that does the same? Just because a nation join an alliance doesn't always mean that that nation suddenly holds a more important position in the world.

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='kulomascovia' timestamp='1293910925' post='2560222']
Damsky, there are many people that find nation building enjoyable. Just look around the forums; how many people do you see actively participating in politics or just simply visit the forums? Not much compared to the 20k nations currently in existence. What keeps the majority of those non-active participants around? Nation building. I've made this point before. The idea that more wars = more fun is a silly one. Wars are a time of major nation loss. People blame stagnation for the decreasing number of nations on CN but the largest decrease in nations come during major wars. This again supplements the idea that many people find nation building enjoyable and that losing large amounts of nation strength in a destructive war does not help retain nations in Planet Bob.

You claim that unaligned nations contribute nothing. To what exactly do they not contribute? Are they not part of the community as well? As I said before,the actively participating members of Planet Bob are outnumbered by those that don't quite care. So what's the difference between an unaligned nations that doesn't participate or contribute to politics and an aligned nation that does the same? Just because a nation join an alliance doesn't always mean that that nation suddenly holds a more important position in the world.
[/quote]

If you think it's nation building that keeps people around then you are the most foolish person ever. Paying bills everyday, collecting taxes every twenty days, and doing the occasional infra jump/tech deal isn't fun. Very few think it is fun. What keeps people around in this world is an alliance community, an [b]off-site[/b] community. That doesn't make the world any more enjoyable it just makes having a nation necessary to participate in the off-site community.

Unaligned nations sit on the none AA and do [b]nothing[/b]. That is all they do, nothing more.

Edited January 1, 2011 by Mr Damsky

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1293774515' post='2559007']
The CB comes down to this,

Considering the only difference between the raidable and not raidable nation for tech raiders is someone protecting him, it seems Damsky is upset this nation wasn't kept isolated from protection so it could be raided continually. Its clear Damsky doesn't have any legit reason for this war.
[/quote]

You just don't get it, do you?

Does it really matter to you that much that his CB isn't legit? Is this that much of an issue for you?

Edited January 1, 2011 by Johnny Apocalypse

[BloodFury]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1293889516' post='2560021']
That's one way of looking at it.

Another way is to say that he objected to CB protecting someone from tech raids that he couldn't even raid himself nor had ever had any contact with. So he decided to behave as the World Police (tm) and hit them for doing things he didn't like.

He forgot that when you want to act as the World Police, you need to actually have guns to back up your laws.
[/quote]

How is it considered being The World Police when he is not policing anything?

[Zai Sen]

Aha, World Police. If Damsky wants to take his two man army and stand up to Planet Bob then he's a hero in a sensible man's eyes. However the only ones who stand before him are those who polish their nations at night and lose all sanity when attacked by a Cruise Missle. The funniest and most ironic part is Damsky has none of the guns, and he still goes to war against those with the guns who sit idle . This isn't Nation States, but this isn't Evony either. As long as we keep a thin line between boring peace and thrilling war we'll be fine.

Edited January 2, 2011 by Zai Sen

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1293905112' post='2560164']
How am I the world police? I am not the one oppressing people's rights and threatening them with destruction if they don't go along with my ideals.
[/quote]
You are attempting to interfere with a sovereign alliance's right to, well, use its sovereignty. The basic fact here is that you're at war because Celestial Being took a defensive action which you do not think they should have the right to do.

And yet they do have the right to protect individual nations. You're the guy claiming that they should not have that right.

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1293933704' post='2560431']
You're the guy claiming that they should not have that right.
[/quote]

This isn't some ex-CB member who wanted to take some time off, this isn't some tech dealer that doesn't like being in an alliance. This is some random nation that was advertised as a raid target, and WC thinks raiding is the worst thing since Hitler and decided to protect the nation to piss off raiders.

So, yeah, they don't have the right to obstruct raiding a valid raid target for "moral" reasons.

[Sephiroth]

I see BoS is down to one member with the only nuclear capable of the two leaving, so congrats to Celestial Being on their swift Victory.

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1293949130' post='2560650']
I see BoS is down to one member with the only nuclear capable of the two leaving, so congrats to VE on their swift Victory.
[/quote]

Fixed that one for you, buddy.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1293941251' post='2560489']
So, yeah, they don't have the right to obstruct raiding a valid raid target for "moral" reasons.
[/quote]
So you claim. If you want to enforce your beliefs on them, though, I think you're going to need more guns.

[Zai Sen]

I think the BoS needs their own wiki page so we can keep track of the shenanigans .

[SWAT128]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1293953596' post='2560695']
Fixed that one for you, buddy.
[/quote]

It seems that Penkala has also joined the fray. Though I am not sure if CSN has sanctioned the attack or not.

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='SWAT128' timestamp='1293982700' post='2560856']
It seems that Penkala has also joined the fray. Though I am not sure if CSN has sanctioned the attack or not.
[/quote]

Their leaders have aided him. If only they did this when I was protected. Oh wait, that would have required them to take a risk. Nevermind.

Edited January 2, 2011 by Mr Damsky

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='SWAT128']
It seems that Penkala has also joined the fray. Though I am not sure if CSN has sanctioned the attack or not.[/quote]

It is sanctioned by CSN with permission of VE.

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1293988445' post='2560895']
Their leaders have aided him. If only they did this when I was protected. Oh wait, that would have required them to take a risk. Nevermind.
[/quote]

Protected? By whom, might I ask? Last I checked a stand-alone one-person alliance didn't constitute as just that: an alliance.

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1293990591' post='2560924']
Protected? By whom, might I ask? Last I checked a stand-alone one-person alliance didn't constitute as just that: an alliance.
[/quote]

Before this war I was protected by OTS. I am no longer protected by OTS and it's very convenient that Penkala chose this time to bandwagon on me.

But I understand, CSN wants to be buddy buddy with VE. This is just one more occasion for you to suck up to them.

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1293991489' post='2560936']
Before this war I was protected by OTS. I am no longer protected by OTS and it's very convenient that Penkala chose this time to bandwagon on me. [/quote]

Ah, wasn't aware about that.

[quote]But I understand, CSN wants to be buddy buddy with VE. This is just one more occasion for you to suck up to them.
[/quote]

And I'd tell you that you are [i]way[/i] off. We aren't GOD, and there is a plethora of reasons why we have yet to sign a treaty with VE.

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1293994319' post='2560972']
And I'd tell you that you are [i]way[/i] off. We aren't GOD, and there is a plethora of reasons why we have yet to sign a treaty with VE.
[/quote]

So why did you feel the need to bandwagon into a war that is none of your concern?

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1293995468' post='2560997']
So why did you feel the need to bandwagon into a war that is none of your concern?
[/quote]

Because one of our members doesn't know how to keep it in his pants and feels the need to war anything and everything that moves? I don't know what you don't understand here; this is Penkala we are talking about.

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1293998152' post='2561034']
Because one of our members doesn't know how to keep it in his pants and feels the need to war anything and everything that moves? I don't know what you don't understand here; this is Penkala we are talking about.
[/quote]

But CSN doesn't raid so any wars you declare are either rogue actions or alliance sponsored wars. So do you support warring Brotherhood of Steel because Penkala wants to?

Edited January 2, 2011 by Mr Damsky

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1294001368' post='2561071']
But CSN doesn't raid so any wars you declare are either rogue actions or alliance sponsored wars.
[/quote]

Last I checked our Constitution doesn't prohibit raiding; likewise, as of this past month raiding had been officially "allowed" (this date specifically being 12/19/2010).