Joint Poison Clan - iFOK Announcement

[Alterego]

[quote name='Tromp' timestamp='1292972519' post='2548815']
If I as a friend of you (just TRY to imagine this) say to you, "let's jump off this bridge!!". Would you tell me that it is a bad idea, or will you follow me?
[/quote]
If I have a document that says we jump off bridges together, the bridge was not really that high and lived in a painless world where death was almost impossible & honouring our word was the only way to show you had any Character then yes I would.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Alterego

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1292972264' post='2548814']
a request?
[/quote]

A request, yes. You did read the OP of this thread that you're posting in, didn't you?

Edited December 21, 2010 by SirWilliam

[Tromp]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1292972719' post='2548818']
If I have a document that says we jump off bridges together, the bridge was not really that high and lived in a painless world where death was almost impossible & only honouring our word counted then yes I would.
[/quote]
Thanks for proving you're a mindless drone.

[erikz]

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1292972731' post='2548819']
A request, yes. You did read the OP of this thread that you're posting in, didn't you?
[/quote]
Everything 'we' say is a lie, everything he says is the absolute truth, don't you understand?

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='erikz' timestamp='1292972835' post='2548823']
Everything 'we' say is a lie, everything he says is the absolute truth, don't you understand?
[/quote]

I do now.

[erikz]

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1292972871' post='2548824']
I do now.
[/quote]

But you don't understand?

[Alterego]

[quote name='Tromp' timestamp='1292972795' post='2548821']
Thanks for proving you're a mindless drone.
[/quote]
Have you read a treaty? When you sign one a lot of thought goes into it. Acting on what you spent ages working on and putting on paper isnt mindless. Running away and ignoring it is mindless

Edited December 21, 2010 by Alterego

[Tromp]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1292972962' post='2548827']
Have you read a treaty? When you sign one a lot of thought goes into it. Doing what you spent ages working on and putting on paper isnt mindless. Running away and ignoring it is mindless
[/quote]
Yes, and if you had read this thread you would have seen multiple posts from my hand where you can read my take on the situation.

Sorry that I don't see things your way, I guess we're not all mindless drones.

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1292972962' post='2548827']
Have you read a treaty? When you sign one a lot of thought goes into it. Doing what you spent ages working on and putting on paper isnt mindless. Running away and ignoring it is mindless
[/quote]
Obeying a predefined rule that doesn't account for all possible outcomes without giving any thought to the circumstances when the rule comes up is [i]literally[/i] mindless. As in: it is a thing that is mindless.

Edited December 21, 2010 by ktarthan

[Alterego]

[quote name='Tromp' timestamp='1292973046' post='2548828']
Yes, and if you had read this thread you would have seen multiple posts from my hand where you can read my take on the situation.

Sorry that I don't see things your way, I guess we're not all mindless drones.
[/quote]
Ive an idea. When someone doesnt see something my way I'll call them a mindless drone and if they blindly agree with any point I make I will praise their intelligence.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Alterego

[Alterego]

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1292973146' post='2548831']
Obeying a predefined rule that doesn't account for all possible outcomes without giving any thought to the circumstances when the rule comes up is [i]literally[/i] mindless. As in: it is a thing that is mindless.
[/quote]
Its not mindless it was just agreed upon earlier in a broader context.

[Tromp]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1292973237' post='2548833']
Ive an idea. When someone doest see something my way I'll call them a mindless drone and if they blindly agree with any point I make I will praise their intelligence.
[/quote]
No, you did it yourself:

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1292972719' post='2548818']
If I have a document that says we jump off bridges together, the bridge was not really that high and lived in a painless world where death was almost impossible & honouring our word was the only way to show you had any Character then yes I would.
[/quote]

Also, I feel sad for having put so much time into my previous posts only to find out you haven't read them.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Tromp

[General Scipio]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1292973237' post='2548833']
Ive an idea. When someone doesnt see something my way I'll call them a mindless drone and if they blindly agree with any point I make I will praise their intelligence.
[/quote]
It's good to see that you can at least see that this is what you're doing. For a minute there I thought you were confused.

[Alterego]

[quote name='Tromp' timestamp='1292973368' post='2548836']
No, you did it yourself:



Also, I feel sad for having put so much time into my previous posts only to find out you haven't read them.
[/quote]
How is it mindless when it was something that was considered at an earlier stage. Its like saying Im meeting a friend to see a movie tonight then having someone call you mindless later that evening when you go to the movie and dont stand up your friend.

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1292973311' post='2548835']
Its not mindless it was just agreed upon earlier in a broader context.
[/quote]
What if you weren't the one to sign the treaty? [url=http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/4611/s30vwnjpg.jpg]What if a lot of thought [i]didn't[/i] go into its construction[/url]? What if both signatories agree that they aren't omniscient and didn't predict a situation that came up, and agree to deviate from the "broad context" of the original agreement?

The fact is that when you don't weigh your options relative to the current situation and simply take a pre-decided path, then that is at least one definition of mindless.

[Alterego]

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1292973683' post='2548841']
What if you weren't the one to sign the treaty? [url=http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/4611/s30vwnjpg.jpg]What if a lot of thought [i]didn't[/i] go into its construction[/url]? What if both signatories agree that they aren't omniscient and didn't predict a situation that came up, and agree to deviate from the "broad context" of the original agreement?

The fact is that when you don't weigh your options relative to the current situation and simply take a pre-decided path, then that is at least one definition of mindless.
[/quote]
I will concede that it takes a smarter person to squirm out of helping a friend who is under attack.

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1292973893' post='2548846']
I will concede that it takes a smarter person to squirm out of helping a friend who is under attack.
[/quote]
Okay cool, thanks for sharing.

Now a reply to what I said would be nice.

[Alterego]

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1292974087' post='2548851']
Okay cool, thanks for sharing.

Now a reply to what I said would be nice.
[/quote]
That thing under your words is called a reply to what you said.

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1292974365' post='2548857']
That thing under your words is called a reply to what you said.
[/quote]
Well I won't entirely eliminate the possibility that it could be a reply, but even in the extremely unlikely circustance where it is, it certainly wasn't to what I said.

Edited December 21, 2010 by ktarthan

[Tromp]

You know, you might just one day figure out the world isn't so black and white as you think it is.

If you really don't want to listen then at least I can't be faulted when you have eventually jumped off that bridge. Good for you, I guess.

edit: this was aimed at Alterego, not Ktarthan

Edited December 21, 2010 by Tromp

[Balkan Banania]

[quote name='erikz' timestamp='1292972099' post='2548806']
We did what you guys did when NSO asked you not to stick your nose in.
[/quote]

Indeed, so I return the naming

[quote name='Steve Buscemi' timestamp='1281467368' post='2410006']
The amount of hypocrisy [s]NPO[/s]iFOK still displays is hilarious. Now, the only question is if your grand displays of cowardice when your ally is attacked are greater than your hypocrisy.
[/quote]

Also I await the great KingZog to start a campaign against the cowards, like you know last time

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1281312879' post='2405387']
I doubt very much that the [s]NSO's[/s]NEW treaties include a "request for help" clause. Thus I'm going to conclude that any treaty partner not defending [s] the Legion of Brown [/s] NEW is led by lying cowards.
[/quote] and so on and so on (too many low quality posts that have the same meaning)...

Some other rather vocal ones chose to remain silent this time; I suppose it is just a coincidence:

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1281313334' post='2405438']
I don't give two craps if [s]NSO's[/s] NEW's allies don't join as I am not even at war here; just making the point that, in this case, the MDP/MDoAP/MADP clauses in their treaties are being rendered "optional". Play with this as you may, it matters not.
[/quote]

[quote name='James Dahl' timestamp='1281417750' post='2409173']
I guess the consequences are so terrible for you that[s] NSO [/s] NEW is worth sacrificing to keep you safe eh?
[/quote]

Overall I am just irritated by the level of hypocrisy that several alliances display and their continuous effort to avoid any accusation for wrongdoing. Please stop repeating the same argument over and over again, acknowledge the fact that this was a logical political decision although you dumped an ally in the way (side casualties) and that you are not the beacon of light, courage knowledge and everything else in the world, nobody is (except of Pacifica of course ).

[Kilkenny]

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1292973683' post='2548841']
What if you weren't the one to sign the treaty? [url=http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/4611/s30vwnjpg.jpg]What if a lot of thought [i]didn't[/i] go into its construction[/url]? What if both signatories agree that they aren't omniscient and didn't predict a situation that came up, and agree to deviate from the "broad context" of the original agreement?

The fact is that when you don't weigh your options relative to the current situation and simply take a pre-decided path, then that is at least one definition of mindless.
[/quote]


Uhm, PC and iFok did sign the treaties, so how is the fact that you are treatied to PC related to the issue of PC and iFok letting their allie get beat down, but only by a few people. if your treaty in non-chaining, then you aren't involved. If it is, then yes you should have thought more about it. Given the reputations of the allainces involved you can't tell me that no-one thoguht something like this could happen. The fact is the "broad terms" you speak of is saving your pixels.


Seems Friends>Pixels only applies when there is no threat of losing theirs. PC, protecting Pixels since....forever.

[Joe Izuzu]

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1292971987' post='2548801']
Yeah that contextless snippet from a non-native English speaker is certainly all the proof I need to ignore everything else said to the contrary!

Or perhaps it meant "Don't worry about all of the call-outs on the OWF", or "Don't worry about that $20 bucks you owe me."
[/quote]

Speaking of interpretations that would be taking something completely out of context.....

[quote name='erikz' timestamp='1292972099' post='2548806']
Great try, but look at Tromp's post.

We did what you guys did when NSO asked you not to stick your nose in.
[/quote]

Assuming that NEW actually [i]did[/i] request that all their allies stay out, which seems to be debatable....

[quote name='erikz' timestamp='1292972227' post='2548813']
If you were an interpreter at the UN Iran and North Korea would've been nuked to bits years ago.

Think what you want, just don't spread it as an absolute truth.

edit: did you see what my non-native English brains did thar?
[/quote]

Given that I was not translating from one language to another, your post is nonsensical. Also, which is better, spreading lies that you know to be lies, or proposing a plausible explanation of an actual, printed statement? If NEW did not specifically tell their allies to stay out, then all of the claims that they did, dating back to the OP, would be bald-faced lies, or ignorant support for bald-faced lies. On the other hand, positing a reasonable explanation for an actual statement that contradicts the OP is merely an example of critical thinking.

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1292972622' post='2548816']
"I understand your position" (an ambiguous statement, paraphrased), interpreted as meaning they were told they wouldn't be defended, is clearer than "You will not be called on to defend us" (a concise statement, also paraphrased)? Heh, you're not very good at this.
[/quote]

Nor are you, quite frankly. Can you point me to anywhere in this thread where a NEW representative said, paraphrased or not, "You will not be called on to defend us"?

Also, according to all the "mindless drones" commentary, I guess that is how you are characterizing FEAR?

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Kilkenny' timestamp='1292974706' post='2548865']
Uhm, PC and iFok did sign the treaties
[/quote]
PC and iFOK != the individual members (and government) of PC and iFOK.

[quote]
so how is the fact that you are treatied to PC related to the issue of PC and iFok letting their allie get beat down, but only by a few people.
[/quote]
It isn't. Thanks for playing!

[quote]
if your treaty in non-chaining, then you aren't involved. If it is, then yes you should have thought more about it. Given the reputations of the allainces involved you can't tell me that no-one thoguht something like this could happen.
[/quote]
My opinion is, and always will be, that the only people the interpretation of a treaty matters to is the signatories. Nobody is obligated to the peanut gallery.

[quote]
The fact is the "broad terms" you speak of is saving your pixels.
[/quote]
No it isn't. That doesn't make sense. Don't throw around buzz-words just because you can.

[quote]
Seems Friends>Pixels only applies when there is no threat of losing theirs. PC, protecting Pixels since....forever.
[/quote]
Again, buzz-words are not a substitute for substantial discussion.

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='Balkan Banania' timestamp='1292974625' post='2548863']
Also I await the great KingZog to start a campaign against the cowards, like you know last time
[/quote]

You seem to have missed many of my posts, for I've already made it quite clear that I believe PC/iFOK are cravenly avoiding a situation in which they would find themselves on both sides of a large conflict.