Sanctions, when are they acceptable?

[Jens of the desert]

I bring this up mainly as I was sanctioned recently by my good friends in Nordreich for attacking a single member of the micro alliance, era. This was done completely without warning and suprised me, as I believed that sanctions were only reserved for nuclear rogues who were on their way out, and not people who had gone through a couple of days of war and then sent a peace offer after an agreement had been come to. I personally see this as a poor show, although even though it will be easy enough for me to get my circle back, I am annoyed that my trade partners may be affected by these actions also.

Of course my opinion will and probably should seem biased, so if someone will please give me some lessons in CN morals and explain to me fully what constitutes a sanction nowadays, it would be greatly appreciated.

edit: I should add that I was a member of CCCP when the sanction occurred and was helping them in their war effort against the oppression of the ERA swine.

Edited September 30, 2010 by Jens of the desert

[Reptyler]

Obviously, they are not acceptable if your name is Free Quebec. Damn Canadians.

I've seen people make all kinds of arguments over the ethics of senators and sanctions, but I think when it comes down to it, you better hope you have access to a senator of your own, really. I'd rather see epic senate races to get your people in power (like Green before Bilrow wrecked it) than having to read a big long argument on the forums about how "wrong" the other guys' sanction was.

Edited September 30, 2010 by Reptyler

[Kzoppistan]

Personally I feel that sanctions are acceptable in any situation. Especially so when the senator can back up the sanction reason with, first, a solid argument, and second, more firepower. Which is why it is important to get the senators that agree with your guidelines of acceptability voted in and keep those who may be inclined to sanction you out.

*Edit: Upon further reflection, I would also submit that the senator should work for the greater good of the color sphere as well.

Edited September 30, 2010 by Kzoppistan

[ktarthan]

And now it's time for another installment of: "Vaguely disguise your callout thread as a world policy question!"

Sanctions are often used on nuclear rogues. If you are sanctioned, you just might be a nuclear rogue. Please contact your local senator for more information.

[Jens of the desert]

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1285874537' post='2470046']
Personally I feel that sanctions are acceptable in any situation. Especially so when the senator can back up the sanction reason with, first, a solid argument, and second, [b]more firepower[/b]. Which is why it is important to get the senators that agree with your guidelines of acceptability voted in and keep those who may be inclined to sanction you out.

*Edit: Upon further reflection, I would also submit that the senator should work for the greater good of the color sphere as well.
[/quote]

Might makes right. I love the world we live in. Also if it's of any interest to you, the senator was not protecting his colour sphere, as ERA is a red alliance (I was black).

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1285874714' post='2470051']
And now it's time for another installment of: "Vaguely disguise your callout thread as a world policy question!"

Sanctions are often used on nuclear rogues. If you are sanctioned, you just might be a nuclear rogue. Please contact your local senator for more information.
[/quote]

Dammit, rattled so soon. Apart from that your post made little sense, but thank you for your time.

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Jens of the desert' timestamp='1285875074' post='2470056']
Dammit, rattled so soon. Apart from that your post made little sense, but thank you for your time.
[/quote]

I'm not sure what part confused you. Senators often sanction nuclear rogues. The reason for your sanction is "Nuclear Rogue".

Often when we find ourselves faced with problems in life the solution is not to rail against the world, but to look within ourselves for an answer.

[Jens of the desert]

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1285876158' post='2470070']
I'm not sure what part confused you. Senators often sanction nuclear rogues. The reason for your sanction is "Nuclear Rogue".

Often when we find ourselves faced with problems in life the solution is not to rail against the world, but to look within ourselves for an answer.
[/quote]
Well I haven't nuked anyone, so I would still like an answer to why I have been sanctioned...

[Kzoppistan]

Who was the black team senator that sanctioned you?

*Edit: Oh, I'm guessing it was pd73bassman. I wonder what they have to say about it...?

Edited September 30, 2010 by Kzoppistan

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='Reptyler' timestamp='1285874514' post='2470045']
Obviously, they are not acceptable if your name is Free Quebec. Damn Canadians.

I've seen people make all kinds of arguments over the ethics of senators and sanctions, but I think when it comes down to it, you better hope you have access to a senator of your own, really. I'd rather see epic senate races to get your people in power (like Green before Bilrow wrecked it) than having to read a big long argument on the forums about how "wrong" the other guys' sanction was.
[/quote]

While its not how I or MCXA do things, I think planet Bob would be a lot more fun if alliance would use sanction in war and and use Senators more aggressively and selfishly.

[GulagArchipelago]

U might wanna talk to NoR if u want ur sanction removed. Last time I checked, u still had nukes, so I'd say "Nuclear Rogue" is a plausible reason....Anyways, good luck in ur crusade against equal rights!

[mrcalkin]

[quote name='GulagArchipelago' timestamp='1285876622' post='2470078']
U might wanna talk to NoR if u want ur sanction removed. Last time I checked, u still had nukes, so I'd say "Nuclear Rogue" is a plausible reason....Anyways, good luck in ur crusade against equal rights!
[/quote]

If you use the nuclear news report feature in-game it is pretty clear that Jens has not used nukes since at least 8/1 when the reports stop being listed. Unless he nuked in July or earlier I don't see why he would be classified as a nuke rogue.

edit: unless you mean he was sanctioned for being a nuclear-equipped rogue and not a nuclear weapon-using rogue

Edited September 30, 2010 by mrcalkin

[Uralica]

[quote name='Jens of the desert' timestamp='1285874042' post='2470038']
edit: I should add that I was a member of CCCP when the sanction occurred and was helping them in their war effort against the oppression of the ERA swine.
[/quote]

[quote name='Andover' timestamp='1285731443' post='2467606']
NV has stepped in since they will appearently be protecting CCCP, and [b]Peace was reached yesterday with white peace occuring at yesterdays update[/b], their size made reps very unrealistic and besides most of them fell out of range of ERA members.
[/quote]

The actual war had officially ended before you declared. Had you been in CCCP a little sooner, you might have had a case for arguing against your sanction. That said, your war is over, so your sanction ought to be lifted. The thing about roguery is, if you're carrying nukes, many people will sanction pre-emptively, anticipating the flying of nukes.

Now as for when sanctions are acceptable, I've always been of the conviction that they should be used somewhat sparingly, with the best interests of the sanctioner's colour sphere in mind, but also with the mind of what is being committed. The following actions are worthy of sanction IMO:

- Nuclear rogues (like Tulak sanctioning that guy who nuke rogued Sparta and TOOL for example)
- Aid scammers
- Recurring non-nuclear rogues (past a certain point - in a case like RUKUNU for example)
- Hackers
- Spies (good example of this is when iCarly2 dumped Dark Templar's war guides on the forum after supposedly joining them - Graham sanctioned her without a second thought.)

Edited September 30, 2010 by Uralica

[Jens of the desert]

[quote name='GulagArchipelago' timestamp='1285876622' post='2470078']
U might wanna talk to NoR if u want ur sanction removed. Last time I checked, u still had nukes, so I'd say "Nuclear Rogue" is a plausible reason....Anyways, good luck in ur crusade against equal rights!
[/quote]
And all still there, glistening and waiting for action. And the "fight" is over and peace was achieved between the two without reps being needed (those were my conditions on stepping out). Sadly I wasn't so impressed by Era calling me a !@#$@#$ !@#$.


[quote name='Uralica' timestamp='1285877104' post='2470088']
The actual war had officially ended before you declared.
[/quote]
Tell that to the kind anti tedwards who was still fighting fiercely for Equal Rights yesterday on 3 fronts.

Edited September 30, 2010 by Jens of the desert

[Omniscient1]

Black is a horrible horrible politically motivated sphere. They're evil and they sanction people just so they can feel powerful. Just go ask Methrage.

[Uralica]

[quote name='Jens of the desert' timestamp='1285877162' post='2470090']
Sadly I wasn't so impressed by Era calling me a !@#$@#$ !@#$.
[/quote]

Heh, I remember in NoCB, when a CCCer did that to a member of TTK in-game. He is no longer with us.

Was this IG or on IRC?

[quote name='Jens of the desert' timestamp='1285877162' post='2470090']
Tell that to the kind anti tedwards who was still fighting fiercely for Equal Rights yesterday on 3 fronts.
[/quote]

He has since peaced out. Andover was obviously late to reading my post about keeping his members in line.

Edited September 30, 2010 by Uralica

[mrcalkin]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1285877182' post='2470093']
Black is a horrible horrible politically motivated sphere. They're evil and they sanction people just so they can feel powerful. Just go ask Methrage.
[/quote]

We (as in Umbrella) define Methrage as a rogue for the actions he took. Regardless of what others might be inclined to categorize him as, we typically sanction rogues upon request.

[Jens of the desert]

[quote name='mrcalkin' timestamp='1285877050' post='2470087']
If you use the nuclear news report feature in-game it is pretty clear that Jens has not used nukes since at least 8/1 when the reports stop being listed. Unless he nuked in July or earlier I don't see why he would be classified as a nuke rogue.

edit: unless you mean he was sanctioned for being a nuclear-equipped rogue and not a nuclear weapon-using rogue
[/quote]
Reminds me of the philosophical dilemma of knowing everything about a human being before they were born: if you knew when someone was going to commit a crime in their life, would you lock them up before they did it?

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='mrcalkin' timestamp='1285877355' post='2470098']
We (as in Umbrella) define Methrage as a rogue for the actions he took. Regardless of what others might be inclined to categorize him as, we typically sanction rogues upon request.
[/quote]

I was just filling in for Methrage since he hasn't made it to this thread yet.

[Sandwich Controversy]

At all times against everybody.

[Sephiroth]

Regardless of the excuses they use, such as their classification of me and others as rogues when convenient, I think its clear GOONS just see it as another weapon to be used if possible and have convinced their allies to use their senate seats to support that. If they are open about it being used as just another weapon that wouldn't be so bad, but their insistence on playing word games to classify the war in order to justify their use of sanctions I think is stupid.

Edited September 30, 2010 by Methrage

[Jens of the desert]

[quote name='Uralica' timestamp='1285877351' post='2470097']
Heh, I remember in NoCB, when a CCCer did that to a member of TTK in-game. He is no longer with us.

Was this IG or on IRC?



He has since peaced out. Andover was obviously late to reading my post about keeping his members in line.
[/quote]
To: Jens of the desert From: anti fishtits Date: 9/30/2010 10:35:10 AM

Subject: RE: war
Message: your a $%&*ing !@#$ i hate you.do you know what cccp have done to us they have been racist to one of ERA's members,they have started two wars with ERA,they have tried to recruit from ERA,they have threatened members of ERA,they have offened with ERA with rude messages and they have cost ERA alot of money and because of you the guys who fight on the front lines like shakazulu,me,tedwards and igwonia won't get the aid they need to rebuild before you came and fought us there was alot of bloody fighting we one in the end and i was just finishing them of because they refused to pay reps.The war with them before this we did not ask for reps but this time we want them you are just ruining ERA for fun your a horrible person

Here is the whole message for your viewing pleasure.

[Uralica]

Wow, I've seen people struck from this realm for less than that.

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='Jens of the desert' timestamp='1285877836' post='2470116']you are just ruining ERA for fun your a horrible person

[/quote]

That should go in your sig.

[Edifice]

I personally don't support sanctions other than for single-few nuclear rogues. If I were a senator, I wouldn't use the sanction liberally if at all, and if I were leading my alliance I would err on the conservative side of using them.

However, I do like the idea of what liberal use of sanctions (e.g. as a tool in alliance-alliance war) would result in for politics in this game. It will create stronger incentives for alliances to compete for senate seats, or move to friendlier spheres if they do not succeed. This would also probably mean that there is enough negative reinforcement in place that prevents a senator from using sanctions excessively. Sanction a nation and you also affect their 5 trade partners. Having mass exoduses from your color sphere only diminishes the trades available to those left behind.

So I say feel free to use sanctions in any way you want, it creates something to fight over, and it isn't so powerful of a tool that it affects much in the long run (except maybe the health of your own sphere).

[RePePe]

There are two sides to every story. We just haven't heard the second yet.