Ninja Election Announcement

[Prozenz]

[quote name='Ruler with Plan X' timestamp='1285738815' post='2467876']
As my forefathers said before me, "Suck it, GOONS"
[/quote]so much this!

Go Ninja!!! Brotherhood will win!

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Clash' timestamp='1285751921' post='2468105']
If my friend picked the fight just because he was a jerk, I'd let him fight it. Especially if he was probably going to win anyways. Jumping in on a fight already overmatched just to make it as curbstompish as they can, regardless if they were "good" friends or not, is pathetic. People who can only fight if they have their opponents as completely outnumbered in as many ways as possible are cowardly.

It seems to me some of your friends think you're incompetent on the battlefield.
Is that why they think you need so much help against 11 nations?
[/quote]
I don't know why people keep saying this. Whether you believe we begged our allies to help or not, this happens every time. Pattern recognition is a standard ability of your average human being. If GOONS gets attacked and their allies assist them the first ten times, you can't honestly be surprised when it happens again, can you? Do you believe ninjas attacked expecting none of GOONS' allies to chip in in any way? Because I can't think of any good reason why people would expect things to be different this time or keep using the same arguments/taunts.

And using tools available to you is not "cowardly." People seem to constantly expect wars to be fought using arbitrary rules they make up (usually ones that benefit them, as in this case). Don't sanction rogues, don't use allies. So where do you draw the line? If I told ninjas nukes or spies were cowardly do you think they'd care? GOONS has allies, and those allies like to fight. If ninjas didn't want to fight our allies too they could've come said "Hey we're going to declare war on you, can we make it a 1 on 1 fight?" Otherwise, it's not GOONS' fault ninjas only brought 12 nations. Is GOONS only supposed to use 12 nations to fight back so it's fair? Are we cowardly if we don't? We already outnumber them so adding more is moot according to your point of view.

We don't beg our allies to help us, nor do we "hide" behind our allies. You'll find quite a few goon declares in there. Including me, skipping over my 6 month anniversary, which I'll be spending in nuke anarchy when I could've just stayed out of the conflict since nobody declared on me and the lowest person in the group was 30% larger than me. People believe when we get attacked we run crying to our allies. People believe we're cowards who don't want to fight. Truth is, we have 270+ nations that want to fight. Truth is, despite all the conflicts and wars we have one person in peace mode (whose NS is 500 so I'm not sure what he's up to). Truth is, the conversations with our allies look more like this:

[3:50:50 AM] <Nolissar|OSA> Beefspari[GOONS]: what is this I hear about somebody DoWing on GOONS
[3:51:28 AM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> the ninjas dropped their treaty with VE (including ignoring the grace period) and attacked GOONS before reset.
[3:52:28 AM] <Nolissar|OSA> Ejay...
[3:52:31 AM] <Nolissar|OSA> any slots left?
[3:52:39 AM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> Should be.
[3:52:42 AM] <Nolissar|OSA> okay

People can continue to issue complaints or whine about allies or any other tool they see fit. To me, all I see are excuses for losing. All's fair in love and war, and ninjas wanted war, so they can't complain if it's not "fair."

[Locke]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1285751953' post='2468107']
I didn't realize we had two threads for this.

Do we really need two threads for this?
[/quote]
Well, once was for the DoW and once for the VE cancellation, they just sorta both drifted to the same topic.

[Banksy]

I've never understood the fascination people have with "1v1 warfare" and not calling in your allies. Winning a war is generally considered to be a desirable outcome, and managing to sustain minimal loss or causalities is, for alliance economic teams at least, also something of a bonus. Why GOONS wouldn't activate its MDPs with allies (or as the case appears to be, bored nation rulers who have treaties with GOONS wouldn't attack the Ninjas) to break this current spell of monotony, is simply beyond me. We've been fighting wars for four and a half years now and I would have expected people to learn that there are consequences when you attack another alliance.

[Clash]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1285753779' post='2468116']Truth is, the conversations with our allies look more like this:

[3:50:50 AM] <Nolissar|OSA> Beefspari[GOONS]: what is this I hear about somebody DoWing on GOONS
[3:51:28 AM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> the ninjas dropped their treaty with VE (including ignoring the grace period) and attacked GOONS before reset.
[3:52:28 AM] <Nolissar|OSA> Ejay...
[3:52:31 AM] <Nolissar|OSA> any slots left?
[3:52:39 AM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> Should be.
[3:52:42 AM] <Nolissar|OSA> okay

People can continue to issue complaints or whine about allies or any other tool they see fit. To me, all I see are excuses for losing. All's fair in love and war, and ninjas wanted war, so they can't complain if it's not "fair."
[/quote]
I for one didn't say you begged your allies to help. But your quote of one of the conversations alone says you sure didn't ask to them to stay out. Again: Did you think you needed the help? You guys asked for this war after all. You asked for them to hit you, you outright dared them to. Then you OK it for your allies to help you out - when you guys were going to have the situation well in hand if you fought for yourselves.

I think THAT makes you cowardly.
Some, like Banksy, seem to thrive on it though

[Clash]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1285754704' post='2468121']
I've never understood the fascination people have with "1v1 warfare" and not calling in your allies. [/quote]
Some people find challenges fun that way.

Others can only fight in curbstomps - even ones they pick themselves.
I tend to openly call those people cowards. See how that works?

[Banksy]

[quote name='Clash' timestamp='1285755014' post='2468124']
You asked for them to hit you, you outright dared them to. Then you OK it for your allies to help you out - when you guys were going to have the situation well in hand if you fought for yourselves.[/quote]
And here we go again. "You forced them to declare on you, they had no free will."

Let's try this. "Clash, attack me." According to you, you are obliged to do so. You have no choice in the matter.

[quote name='Clash' timestamp='1285755014' post='2468124']
Some, like Banksy, seem to thrive on it though
[/quote]
Like the rest of your post, this makes literally no sense.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Clash' timestamp='1285755014' post='2468124']
I for one didn't say you begged your allies to help. But your quote of one of the conversations alone says you sure didn't ask to them to stay out. Again: Did you think you needed the help? You guys asked for this war after all. You asked for them to hit you, you outright dared them to. Then you OK it for your allies to help you out - when you guys were going to have the situation well in hand if you fought for yourselves.

I think THAT makes you cowardly.
Some, like Banksy, seem to thrive on it though
[/quote]
There's a difference between "needing" and "letting." ninjas knew what would happen when they declared, so literally nobody should be surprised, and literally nobody should be complaining. Yet people still do anyway.

Why would we tell our allies to stay out? Why even have allies if you not only aren't going to utilize them ever, but intend to outright tell them they can't fight on your side ever? How long do you think we could keep allies who love to fight if we disallowed them from ever fighting with us?

I suppose other alliances don't value their allies like we do.

[Clash]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1285755323' post='2468126']
And here we go again. "You forced them to declare on you, they had no free will."

Let's try this. "Clash, attack me." According to you, you are obliged to do so. You have no choice in the matter.

Like the rest of your post, this makes literally no sense.[/quote]
Red herring. I never said any such thing.
They asked - TN accepted. Which part confuses you?

That small part of my post makes no sense only if you take it out of context. Which is apparently what you specialize in. In context it very much so made sense - it's right up there to see.

Edited September 29, 2010 by Clash

[Banksy]

[quote name='Clash' timestamp='1285755315' post='2468125']
Some people find challenges fun that way.[/quote]
Who are these people and how are their alliances doing?

[quote name='Clash' timestamp='1285755315' post='2468125']
Others can only fight in curbstomps - even ones they pick themselves.[/quote]
I'm a little unsure about what your point is here. Surely you're not still trying to say GOONS forced the Ninjas to attack them? Or are you attempting to create a strawman?

[quote name='Clash' timestamp='1285755315' post='2468125']
I tend to openly call those people cowards. See how that works?[/quote]
Yes, I see how you could call those people cowards, but it doesn't really bare much relevance to either the line you quoted or the GOONS situation as, again, GOONS did not force the Ninjas to attack them and did not attack them themselves.

[Jakome]

[quote name='Clash' timestamp='1285755014' post='2468124']
I for one didn't say you begged your allies to help. But your quote of one of the conversations alone says you sure didn't ask to them to stay out. Again: Did you think you needed the help? You guys asked for this war after all. You asked for them to hit you, you outright dared them to. Then you OK it for your allies to help you out - when you guys were going to have the situation well in hand if you fought for yourselves.

I think THAT makes you cowardly.
Some, like Banksy, seem to thrive on it though
[/quote]
Well we'll make a note of that. Next time GOONS gets asked to make in 1v1 we will be sure to tell our friends NO you can't join....they asked for 1v1.

Ps we may have egged them on to our hearts desire but we didn't declare so we play how we want

[Clash]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1285755430' post='2468127']
There's a difference between "needing" and "letting." ninjas knew what would happen when they declared, so literally nobody should be surprised, and literally nobody should be complaining. Yet people still do anyway.

Why would we tell our allies to stay out? Why even have allies if you not only aren't going to utilize them ever, but intend to outright tell them they can't fight on your side ever? How long do you think we could keep allies who love to fight if we disallowed them from ever fighting with us?

I suppose other alliances don't value their allies like we do.[/quote]
I am not complaining. I am voicing my humble opinion tho.
There's a difference there as well.

I suppose some alliances fight for themselves when they have overwhelming odds in that fight and only call in their allies when they really need them. Especially when they are the ones who asked for the fight in the first place.

[Clash]

[quote name='Jakome' timestamp='1285755595' post='2468130']Ps we may have egged them on to our hearts desire but we didn't declare so we play how we want
[/quote]
Perhaps you didn't declare because they had an ally bigger than you?
You guys seem to be only able to fight when it's as big a curbstomp as possible.

TN appears to have asked their allies to stay out when they fought.
Compare that with GOONS.

[oinkoink12]

You werent man enough to admit it last week, and not man enough to admit it yesterday.

I'm glad we had the targetlists ready.


[quote]Session Start: Tue Sep 28 16:35:47 2010
Session Ident: NuTkaSe
[16:35] Session Ident: NuTkaSe (Coldfront, oinkoink12) (ip@coldfront-57C88BF6.lnse1.wel.bigpond.net.au)
[16:35] <NuTkaSe> you around mate?
01[16:36] <oinkoink12> yes
[16:36] <NuTkaSe> I hear that some ninjas are spreading rumors
[16:37] <NuTkaSe> I don't like ninja's spreading rumors
01[16:37] <oinkoink12> but the information provided was that You were planning and hitting goons
[16:37] <NuTkaSe> :S
[16:39] <NuTkaSe> hmm, well not like people going around causing rumors
[16:39] <NuTkaSe> though I am especially annoyed by the fact is our boys
01[16:39] <oinkoink12> well the case that 2 rumors are being spread by 2 individuals must have "some" base
[16:39] <NuTkaSe> or two people just trying to cause !@#$
[16:39] <NuTkaSe> but ow well
[16:41] <NuTkaSe> but yeah I dont like people gossiping in my alliance
[16:42] <NuTkaSe> makes for future leaks
[16:42] <NuTkaSe> as it would in any alliance
01[16:42] <oinkoink12> true[/quote]

You really didnt have any idea

[Drizuz]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1285754704' post='2468121']
I've never understood the fascination people have with "1v1 warfare" and not calling in your allies. Winning a war is generally considered to be a desirable outcome, and managing to sustain minimal loss or causalities is, for alliance economic teams at least, also something of a bonus. Why GOONS wouldn't activate its MDPs with allies (or as the case appears to be, bored nation rulers who have treaties with GOONS wouldn't attack the Ninjas) to break this current spell of monotony, is simply beyond me. We've been fighting wars for four and a half years now and I would have expected people to learn that there are consequences when you attack another alliance.
[/quote]

I can understand needed help for our upper Tier, but what i don't understand is AntiVietCong and Manussa ,are both nations that couldn't make it to update in our "Surprise" attack, however only Manussa, at 38k NS in our lower Tier, got attacked by one GOONS, one PC and one MK but that could of easily been handle by GOONS nation in Manussa's range, and on the other side AntiVietCong, in our upper Tier 126k NS, is untouched. Pro-Tip , GOONS probably want to focus obtaining help from other AA with good upper Tier to help you fight that upper Tier , not our overwhelming our lower Tier that hasn't even attacked yet.

[potato]

[quote name='Clash' timestamp='1285755968' post='2468133']
Perhaps you didn't declare because they had an ally bigger than you?
You guys seem to be only able to fight when it's as big a curbstomp as possible.

TN appears to have asked their allies to stay out when they fought.
Compare that with GOONS.
[/quote]

The Ninjas don't have allies.

[Clash]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1285755560' post='2468129']I'm a little unsure about what your point is here. Surely you're not still trying to say GOONS forced the Ninjas to attack them? Or are you attempting to create a strawman?[/quote]
You aren't even using that term properly.
[url="http://www.fallacyfiles.org/strawman.html"]Straw Man[/url]

making points you think I've made then pretending to counter them? Comparing our posts would seem to make you a hypocrite. My point has been that GOONS didn't need any help - far, far from it, in a war they outright asked for. They let help come in anyways. That, imho, makes them rather [url="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/coward"]cowardly[/url].

[potato]

[quote name='Clash' timestamp='1285756397' post='2468141']
You aren't even using that term properly.
[url="http://www.fallacyfiles.org/strawman.html"]Straw Man[/url]

making points you think I've made then pretending to counter them? Comparing our posts would seem to make you a hypocrite. My point has been that GOONS didn't need any help - far, far from it, in a war they outright asked for. They let help come in anyways. That, imho, makes them rather [url="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/coward"]cowardly[/url].
[/quote]

Since you don't seem to understand the concept of allies, I'll use simpler terms for you: while I can't talk for PC, FOK and whoever else jumped on The Ninjas, I can tell you MK would have DoWed GOONS ourselves if they hadn't let us in on the action.

[Clash]

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1285756661' post='2468143']
Since you don't seem to understand the concept of allies, I'll use simpler terms for you:

while I can't talk for PC, FOK and whoever else jumped on The Ninjas, I can tell you MK would have DoWed GOONS ourselves if they hadn't let us in on the action.[/quote]
I think the second part shows who truly doesn't understand the concept of allies.

[oinkoink12]

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1285756661' post='2468143']
Since you don't seem to understand the concept of allies, I'll use simpler terms for you: while I can't talk for PC, FOK and whoever else jumped on The Ninjas, I can tell you MK would have DoWed GOONS ourselves if they hadn't let us in on the action.
[/quote]

FOK aswell

[potato]

[quote name='Clash' timestamp='1285756952' post='2468146']
I think the second part shows who truly doesn't understand the concept of allies.
[/quote]

The image was too strong for you? I'll simplify it a bit more then: [b]GOONS didn't have a choice[/b]. It was leaked that The Ninjas were going rogue on GOONS. Thus, who ever was attacking our allies was going to taste our nukes, regardless of AA, justification or whatever terrible e-lawyering you're trying to do.

Edited September 29, 2010 by potato

[Banksy]

[quote name='Clash' timestamp='1285756397' post='2468141']
You aren't even using that term properly.
[url="http://www.fallacyfiles.org/strawman.html"]Straw Man[/url]

making points you think I've made then pretending to counter them? Comparing our posts would seem to make you a hypocrite. My point has been that GOONS didn't need any help - far, far from it, in a war they outright asked for. They let help come in anyways. That, imho, makes them rather [url="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/coward"]cowardly[/url].
[/quote]
You are correct, that is not the definition of a strawman, which I why I queried your use of it and wondered if it was a failed 'attempt.' However, based on your reply I still have no idea what your point was with that particular one-liner and i'm not too sure you do either. As for the hypocrisy, surely you can't criticise me for your own flawed and flimsy arguments?

I actually agree with you that GOONS did not require any help for an eventual victory, it appears they are getting some anyway. Like me, I suspect they object to that ludicrous notion of the 1v1 battle.

[nutkase]

[quote name='oinkoink12' timestamp='1285756117' post='2468134']
You werent man enough to admit it last week, and not man enough to admit it yesterday.

I'm glad we had the targetlists ready.




You really didnt have any idea
[/quote]


Hahah like I was going to sit back to aknowledge we were going to hit GOONS, I was also thinking about giving you our taregt lists to show which GOONS we were going to hit

Tell you the colour of my underwear aswell, just to be sure.

The whole thing was about deception and interference, not coming out a day before update and telling FOK we were going to hit GOONS.

[nutkase]

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1285757153' post='2468148']
The image was too strong for you? I'll simplify it a bit more then: [b]GOONS didn't have a choice[/b]. It was leaked that The Ninjas were going rogue on GOONS. Thus, who ever was attacking our allies was going to taste our nukes, regardless of AA, justification or whatever terrible e-lawyering you're trying to do.
[/quote]

*Looks around* I don't see no rogues!

Get our head out of the sand, we are a established alliance with ties and (former) treaties with other alliances. We have a flag, a charter and everything else a alliance has. For christ sake even most of GOONS see us as a alliances.

Grow some and post a offical declaration.

Edited September 29, 2010 by nutkase

[potato]

[quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1285757477' post='2468152']
Hahah like I was going to sit back to aknowledge we were going to hit GOONS, I was also thinking about giving you our taregt lists to show which GOONS we were going to hit

Tell you the colour of my underwear aswell, just to be sure.

The whole thing was about deception and interference, not coming out a day before update and telling FOK we were going to hit GOONS.
[/quote]

Everybody knew a day before your attack.

[quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1285757645' post='2468153']
*Looks around* I don't see no rogues!

Get our head out of the sand, we are a established alliance with ties and (former) treaties with other alliances. We have a flag, a charter and everything else a alliance has. For christ sake even most of GOONS see us as a alliances.

Grow some and post a offical declaration.
[/quote]

I, personnally, still see you as rogues. Seeing as I'm not Mil Comm or Archon, it's not my call to decide whether or not we treat you as a proper alliance or not. That being said, that's not the point of my previous comment: would it make you shut up if we imagined "going rogue on GOONS" was replaced by "going to attack GOONS"?

Edited September 29, 2010 by potato