GOONS DoW Announcement

[Heinlander]

Who posted in: GOONS DoW Announcement
Member name Posts
Methrage 101
Beefspari 54
Dr Beefstupid 40
Haquertal 37
[b]ChairmanHal 29[/b]

Obviously you are a bastion of indifference.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1284559267' post='2454721']

The "Lost Boys" analogy absolutely works. The world has changed much since 2007. Some would even go so far as to say newer nations are becoming something to be protected, because there are less of them coming into existence, not raided off Planet Bob or harvested like a crop. A similar line of thinking goes with the movement against PZI, EZI and other efforts to run experienced, loyal nation leaders off Planet Bob--yes even the obnoxious ones. No one, save perhaps GPA, wants a world without conflict or something to fight about. But there is a balance to things that needs to be struck. GOONS doesn't seem to understand that. Like the Lost Boys, you refuse to evolve (grow up) and do things differently. I'll not address those that enable your behavior--that is another topic for another day.
[/quote]
This would be a good argument, if not for the fact that we have been extremely successful on the FA front. We have our allies, we are not an outcast alliance like \m/. While some of our policies may be somewhat outside of the mainstream, they are still accepted. We understand perfectly what we need to do, the line we need to walk, and we have walked the line with great success. Decry our policies if you must, mistake the EoG list for a PZI list, but don't for a second think that we don't know what we are doing.

You were right about one thing though, Methrage has proved to be a growth market. Though we may have hit peak Methrage already, I am hopeful for profitable returns in the future.

Edited September 15, 2010 by Sardonic

[dalstrs]

[quote name='Owney OSullivan' timestamp='1284533991' post='2454590']
So how exactly did Methrage assist you guys in catching the rebel?
[/quote]

He knows how and that is all that matters.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='dalstrs' timestamp='1284573392' post='2454856']
He knows how and that is all that matters.
[/quote]
Are you referring to clicking accept when the aid was sent? You guys are being incredibly unclear here because you based your spy attacks on zero evidence, my guess would be you guys or your allies monitored the team colors or aid slot usage of a large amount of nations. Since basing an accusation on that wouldn't be reason for an alliance to allow spy attacks on their own members, that's why you've withheld whatever reasoning or evidence you had for spying on him. Also if you guys sent fake aid offers for the sole reason of seeing if he had slots available to accept with, you might not mention that as how you suspected him either.

Edited September 15, 2010 by Methrage

[ktarthan]

If a nation is innocent, there is [i]literally[/i] no reason to protest a "gather intelligence" spy operation being performed on your nation by an ally when requested by your own government. The only thing that can result is proof of your innocence.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1284576377' post='2454888']
If a nation is innocent, there is [i]literally[/i] no reason to protest a "gather intelligence" spy operation being performed on your nation by an ally when requested by your own government. The only thing that can result is proof of your innocence.
[/quote]
Guilty until proven innocent isn't how most alliances do it, first you need to show proof with those who respect their members.

[the rebel]

Methrage the only reasons ive been able to gather from sources as proof that i did it, was my recent following and posting in GOONS topics which put me in the spotlight which resulted the aid spam the day before whoever asked for spy premission. i still believe the "evidence" was merely speculation on them fronts, i could be wrong but that is whats been suggested to me as im still not allowed to see it.

Speculation or not it still wasnt solid proof because why else would they need to do spy attacks, that in its self proves the "evidence" wasnt as solid as its been made out. Regardless atleast i now know pezstar had no trust in me, to ask me before hand. It wasnt like i was a nobody in the alliance and was highly productive and generous within the alliance.

Lack of trust and faith in my possible answer pezstar, hurt.

Anyways what is done is done [color="#FF0000"]*wonders off sorting out paying off the fine for his crime*[/color]

[pezstar]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1284576847' post='2454896']
Methrage the only reasons ive been able to gather from sources as proof that i did it, was my recent following and posting in GOONS topics which put me in the spotlight which resulted the aid spam the day before whoever asked for spy premission. i still believe the "evidence" was merely speculation on them fronts, i could be wrong but that is whats been suggested to me as im still not allowed to see it.

Speculation or not it still wasnt solid proof because why else would they need to do spy attacks, that in its self proves the "evidence" wasnt as solid as its been made out. Regardless atleast i now know pezstar had no trust in me, to ask me before hand. It wasnt like i was a nobody in the alliance and was highly productive and generous within the alliance.

Lack of trust and faith in my possible answer pezstar, hurt.

Anyways what is done is done [color="#FF0000"]*wonders off sorting out paying off the fine for his crime*[/color]
[/quote]

Yes, well. We're hurt that you didn't care enough about STA to avoid sending aid to a known rogue, thus putting us all at risk. So I guess we're even.

[the rebel]

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1284577077' post='2454899']
Yes, well. We're hurt that you didn't care enough about STA to avoid sending aid to a known rogue, thus putting us all at risk. So I guess we're even.
[/quote]

Didnt care? how harsh and it wouldnt of put the whole alliance at risk so please dont dramatise as the result would of been the same as what happend (booted).

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1284576818' post='2454895']
Guilty until proven innocent isn't how most alliances do it, first you need to show proof with those who respect their members.
[/quote]
If it was "guilty until proven innocent", they'd kick him out before the spy op. The spy op is the part where they're trying to obtain the proof. It's a quick and harmless way to find a definitive answer.

I would agree with you if there was [i]any[/i] negative repercussions to having this kind of spy op performed on your nation by a friendly source.

[the rebel]

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1284577706' post='2454915']
If it was "guilty until proven innocent", they'd kick him out before the spy op. The spy op is the part where they're trying to obtain the proof. It's a quick and harmless way to find a definitive answer.[/quote]

Hang-on thought you had enough solid proof i was guilty, so much so that beefspari said previously in this thread that not allowing a spy attack would be viewed as supporting my action and result in war, so why would a spy attack have been needed?

Edit: so i stand by my result that it was all mere speculation.

Edited September 15, 2010 by the rebel

[pezstar]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1284578184' post='2454923']
Hang-on thought you had enough solid proof i was guilty, so much so that beefspari said previously in this thread that not allowing a spy attack would be viewed as supporting my action and result in war, so why would a spy attack have been needed?

Edit: so i stand by my result that it was all mere speculation.
[/quote]

No. It was actually that STA trusted you enough to want to be certain and see everything for ourselves before letting someone attack you.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1284577706' post='2454915']
If it was "guilty until proven innocent", they'd kick him out before the spy op. The spy op is the part where they're trying to obtain the proof. It's a quick and harmless way to find a definitive answer.

I would agree with you if there was [i]any[/i] negative repercussions to having this kind of spy op performed on your nation by a friendly source.
[/quote]
Spies get killed all the time in Spy Ops, sometimes up to 20 of them. That would be $2,000,000 lost from one spy op even if you prevent it sometimes.

[ktarthan]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1284578184' post='2454923']
Hang-on thought you had enough solid proof i was guilty, so much so that beefspari said previously in this thread that not allowing a spy attack would be viewed as supporting my action and result in war, so why would a spy attack have been needed?

Edit: so i stand by my result that it was all mere speculation.
[/quote]
I wasn't directly part of the effort to expose the secret aid, so I can't say exactly what was brought to STA, but you need to keep in mind that there's degrees between "mere speculation" and "irrefutable proof". We obviously had a strong enough lead for STA to not simply laugh us off, but it was not strong enough for them to believe it without something 100% concrete. That's where the spy op comes in. A quick, harmless, and logical way to remove all doubt.


Edit:
[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1284578943' post='2454940']
Spies get killed all the time in Spy Ops, sometimes up to 20 of them. That would be $2,000,000 lost from one spy op even if you prevent it sometimes.
[/quote]
That's why I said "on your nation". That's a loss to the source of the operation, not the target. The nation performing the attack is doing so willingly, and is aware of the repercussions of failing the spy op. You don't see MK complaining about being asked to perform the operation.

Edited September 15, 2010 by ktarthan

[pezstar]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1284578943' post='2454940']
Spies get killed all the time in Spy Ops, sometimes up to 20 of them. That would be $2,000,000 lost from one spy op even if you prevent it sometimes.
[/quote]

This was discussed before we did it. If he was innocent, he would have been reimbursed in full.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1284579004' post='2454942']
This was discussed before we did it. If he was innocent, he would have been reimbursed in full.
[/quote]
You should still reimburse him by helping him pay reps for allowing that spy attack on him while still a member in my opinion. Although I'm sure people from STA will do that on their own free will, unless that be aiding a rogue as well? Either way despite all his contributions to STA you guys did nothing to protect him from spy ops done to him by your own allies against his will before you guys knew he was guilty.

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1284579581' post='2454952']
You should still reimburse him by helping him pay reps for allowing that spy attack on him while still a member in my opinion. Although I'm sure people from STA will do that on their own free will, unless that be aiding a rogue as well? Either way despite all his contributions to STA you guys did nothing to protect him from spy ops done to him by your own allies against his will before you guys knew he was guilty.
[/quote]
So they need proof that he was guilty before they should allow someone to find proof that he was guilty?

Again, I don't see how there can be any objection to a gather intelligence spy op performed by an ally. It's non destructive, and you can trust your ally not to misuse the information. In fact, it's even beneficial in that it could prevent a hostile spy attack that day.

Edited September 15, 2010 by ktarthan

[pezstar]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1284579581' post='2454952']
You should still reimburse him by helping him pay reps for allowing that spy attack on him while still a member in my opinion. Although I'm sure people from STA will do that on their own free will, unless that be aiding a rogue as well? Either way despite all his contributions to STA you guys did nothing to protect him from spy ops done to him by your own allies against his will before you guys knew he was guilty.
[/quote]

Yes, well. As I'm sure you're aware, your opinion means crap.

[Phetion]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1284576847' post='2454896']
Methrage the only reasons ive been able to gather from sources as proof that i did it, was my recent following and posting in GOONS topics which put me in the spotlight which resulted the aid spam the day before whoever asked for spy premission. i still believe the "evidence" was merely speculation on them fronts, i could be wrong but that is whats been suggested to me as im still not allowed to see it.

Speculation or not it still wasnt solid proof because why else would they need to do spy attacks, that in its self proves the "evidence" wasnt as solid as its been made out. [b]Regardless atleast i now know pezstar had no trust in me,[/b] to ask me before hand. It wasnt like i was a nobody in the alliance and was highly productive and generous within the alliance.

[b]Lack of trust and faith in my possible answer[/b] pezstar, hurt.

Anyways what is done is done [color="#FF0000"]*wonders off sorting out paying off the fine for his crime*[/color]
[/quote]


You see, that would all make sense [i]if[/i] you hadn't done it.

You can't run around now blaming others for not trusting you when you were [b]lying.[/b] How you can try and turn this around on anyone other than yourself is beyond me.

It's your own fault

[Sardonic]

Methrage, I want you to tell me something. I want you to tell me what it is like to be the worst rogue in history. Most rogues fire off a few nukes for a personal grudge and then ragequit, doing damage to a few key people with whom they have had disagreements. You, on the other hand, have earned us hundreds of millions, not only paying us back the damage you caused, but making us a hefty profit. You have become a running joke in our alliance, a cultural icon for the types of people we fight against. You have added to our economies and our culture. You are constructing that which you pathetically attempt to destroy. You have done more to build our alliance than most normal members of GOONS. You could have walked away after Yevgeni paid your weregild, but you came back, and now we are making money off of you once again. You could have spent 10 minutes hashing out a picture of acceptable quality and saved a lot of people a lot of money, but you didn't, you floundered about demanding white peace, and now here you are, making the same mistakes. Have you learned [B]nothing[/b]?

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1284581536' post='2454974']
Methrage, I want you to tell me something. I want you to tell me what it is like to be the worst rogue in history. Most rogues fire off a few nukes for a personal grudge and then ragequit, doing damage to a few key people with whom they have had disagreements. You, on the other hand, have earned us hundreds of millions, not only paying us back the damage you caused, but making us a hefty profit. You have become a running joke in our alliance, a cultural icon for the types of people we fight against. You have added to our economies and our culture. You are constructing that which you pathetically attempt to destroy. You have done more to build our alliance than most normal members of GOONS. You could have walked away after Yevgeni paid your weregild, but you came back, and now we are making money off of you once again. You could have spent 10 minutes hashing out a picture of acceptable quality and saved a lot of people a lot of money, but you didn't, you floundered about demanding white peace, and now here you are, making the same mistakes. Have you learned [B]nothing[/b]?
[/quote]
Yet GOONS is full of crap nations with no wonders or improvements regardless of money wasted on you guys, I'll answer yours when you tell me what its be gov in one of the worst alliances in history.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1284581850' post='2454976']
I'll answer yours when you tell me what its be gov in one of the worst alliances in history.
[/quote]
I wouldn't know, Methrage. Unless by "worst" you mean "most awesomely evil", then I suppose I can take it as a backhanded compliment.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1284582059' post='2454982']
I wouldn't know, Methrage. Unless by "worst" you mean "most awesomely evil", then I suppose I can take it as a backhanded compliment.
[/quote]
Not really what I meant, unless by "worst" you mean I'm the "most awesomely evil" rogue, otherwise I meant the other kind of worst.

[kulomascovia]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1284581536' post='2454974']
a cultural icon for the types of people we fight against.
[/quote]

I don't see how Metharge can be seen as an icon for innocent unaligned nations.

Edited September 15, 2010 by kulomascovia

[Choson]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1284582828' post='2454989']
Not really what I meant, unless by "worst" you mean I'm the "most awesomely evil" rogue, otherwise I meant the other kind of worst.
[/quote]
But that would presuppose that you are both awesome and evil, and you most certainly are neither.

Although, I guess you could be awfully bad at running a nation. Because I'm certainly filled with awe at you manage to be so inept at it.

[quote name='kulomascovia' timestamp='1284582987' post='2454993']
I don't see how Metharge can be seen as an icon for innocent unaligned nations.
[/quote]

If you've been following any of this, you'd know he's hardly innocent.

Edited September 15, 2010 by Choson