In Response to Recent Drama

[Wad of Lint]

[quote name='SoADarthCyfe6' timestamp='1281368642' post='2407632']
Once again as stated earlier in this thread, it is no cancellation, the treaty is now considered null and void due to NSO breaking it.
[/quote]

This is a veiled attempt at justifying a cancellation in an attempt to keep their feet dry.
Let me reiterate.

[quote name='Wad of Lint' timestamp='1281366738' post='2407567']
I can assume VE knew as soon as Saturday night. In which case they either told you or did not. If they did, you failed to inform us of impending war, thereby invoking the clause you seem to be holding so dear from your end. If they did not, I'm curious, are you voting on that treaty as well? I would hate to continue thinking you a coward.
[/quote]

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1281363834' post='2407437']
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=90386&view=findpost&p=2406736

Ask and ye shall receive.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Yet despite that we always had GATO's back, even when the conflicts (had they come to it) they wished us to honor the treaty we had no obligation nor business in entering. While GATO was not the high focus of our FA (soothing over relations with other alliances was, for obvious reasons), we nonetheless were in near constant communication with them (that is a lot better treatment than most treaties get), were always perfectly honest with them, and viewed them as a partner on brown. Within the last few weeks our focus on GATO was taking an increase. While it is regrettable that the treaty became what it did both to differing FA paths, we still held the treaty in the highest regard. Quite frankly you have no idea what you're talking about when you try to spin it like it meant nothing to us.[/color]

[D34th]

[quote name='SoADarthCyfe6' timestamp='1281367671' post='2407602']
The fact that a 16 man alliance had informed GATO before NSO, a 169 man alliance was incapable of telling GATO what's up, should be enough said there.

The treaty is void due to the inability to honor agreements made between the respective allies.

[/quote]

The reason that the treaty is void is because your beloved GATO allies likes to abandon their friends in times of need, even if said friends aren't putting GATO in any kind of risk, so I hope you don't find yourself and your alliance in the dead end of a curmstomp because if GATO doesn't care about a 169 men alliance do you think they will care about a 16 men one?

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Sir Sci' timestamp='1281369415' post='2407651']
Alright, so NSO's government didn't know? Alright, this, perhaps I can accept. So, for some reason, those of you who were privy to the information that RoK had outright said there would be war decided to not PM your own government or notify your membership? None of the Council of Lies or other Sith Lord knew? Is this correct?
[/quote]

Like I literally found out because there were posts of this in our private government board, ones that only Sith Lords and above have access to. And I found out about this pretty late at night. And even then, I had no clue what was going on because there were so many logs and posts. Our WarCon fellow knew only bits and pieces of it because he was given the order to send the aid. Other than that, literally none of us knew anything until the following day. Even LintWad didn't know. He came back from his vacation like an hour before the DoW.

[janax]

Man...I'm glad I didn't fill out my bracket yet. This ought to push GATO into contending.

Thanks GATO!

Also, weak move to "nullify" like this, and this is coming from someone who couldn't care less about NSO

[Goldie]

I really haven't looked at the timestamps, but it was early afternoon when Omni came on that we notified GATO of the situation. Not much longer after that NSO started going into peace mode.

[SpoiL]

[quote name='Sir Sci' timestamp='1281367253' post='2407583']
Hoo clearly says that aiding someone who was attacking their protectorate would be an act of war. He says they would respond to that act of war with war. I'm not saying that RoK acted perfectly. I'm not saying that I agree entirely with RoK's actions. They really SHOULD have been more diplomatic. What I AM saying is that the NSO was clearly informed that if they sent war aid that there would be war. Period. NSO sent war aid. The chain of events is rather self explanatory.

Perhaps NSO didn't expect for it to go down as fast as it did. That didn't change the fact that the NSO knew what was going on. That doesn't change the fact that the treaty stipulates that GATO would be informed of the situation.

Run from a conflict that you didn't even ask us to join...that's the thing. OBVIOUSLY we didn't cancel the treaty because we were afraid of getting attacked, because you didn't even ask us to join. The treaty was voided by the NSO's actions.



So, you held negotiations with RoK. You couldn't have told us about THOSE? By the fact that you had to have negotiations shows that you knew something was going on.



I fail to see how this is a change in reasoning. I also still am struggling with the whole "war we didn't know about," since the facts clearly show you that you did know it was coming.
[/quote]

You don't deem our member a rogue without providing reasoning. Typically, you provide the reason and he is dismissed as a member and from our protection. A non-issue dealt with as a non-issue. In this case, they attacked our member. We defend our members. Yes, we even defend Heft, despite having taken GATO from us.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Wad of Lint' timestamp='1281366738' post='2407567']
I can assume VE knew as soon as Saturday night. In which case they either told you or did not. If they did, you failed to inform us of impending war, thereby invoking the clause you seem to be holding so dear from your end. If they did not, I'm curious, are you voting on that treaty as well? I would hate to continue thinking you a coward.
[/quote]

You guys knew as soon as saturday night too. Do you know why? because you caused the entire thing. VE was the first to come tell us what happened.

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281366905' post='2407572']
What? How exactly did GATO stick with us? When has GATO ever went to war with us?
[/quote]

Right since that's the only way we supported you guys. We never shielded you from trouble before or anything like that. I didn't get nuked by a rogue just so I could make sure my allies had someone to back them up.

[quote name='Sir Keshav IV' timestamp='1281366985' post='2407574']
What GATO should have done was wait till the war was over and then cancel. The same reasoning can be used then and it would seem more believable. Doing in the middle of the war whether for the right reasons or not is just of poor class. For once I must say I am disappointed in you guys.
[/quote]

While I understand what you mean then it would have been "You're just trying to get out of sending them aid"

[quote name='Zoomzoomzoom' timestamp='1281367430' post='2407591']
I really don't know why GATO allies are attempting to defend this move. GATO $%&@ed up and I'd be embarrassed to be allied to them. You sign a MDP level treaty and a certain level of spirit and friendship is signed along with it. This friendship goes beyond the letter and word of any piece of e-paper. What GATO has done is shown they hold no respect for any treaty they currently hold. It's all a matter of convenience for them. Perhaps that LoSS treaty will continue to be special. We all know they love to switch sides before a major beat down. So congratulations GATO on !@#$@#$ up any chance of securing future treaties. You'd have to be a fool to sign with you.
[/quote]

You're right Zoom. We thought someone was our friends and they turned out not to be. We were used and stabbed in the back and left in a !@#$%* no win situation. Thanks NSO all hats off to you.

[quote]Heft actually got the rogue aid at like 12:30 in the morning. We act quickly when there's a lot of us on. At that point, there was like two people on and they were too busy to think about informing you guys. The temporal argument that you guys are making is not working to your advantage. I don't think it says anywhere in the treaty that we have to provide information on the dot of a situation. I think it's purposely vague because it has a forgiving intention. To be fair, we were not given much opportunity to inform you of anything.[/quote]

Wow now this story changes alot. It's gone from four in the morning and everyone was about to drop out from exhaustion to 12:30 at night and they were all to busy to talk to us. I'm glad we don't rank high on your list of things to cover.

[Wad of Lint]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1281369748' post='2407670']
You guys knew as soon as saturday night too. Do you know why? because you caused the entire thing. VE was the first to come tell us what happened.
[/quote]

So you admit you knew Saturday night? Where was our notice?

[joracy]

[quote name='Geoffron X' timestamp='1281368474' post='2407625']
Unfortunately we have a PIAT. For now.
[/quote]

Feel free to cancel on them and hit them. I'm sure it will end well.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Sir Sci' timestamp='1281366013' post='2407535']
Facts:

1. Hoo informed Heft that it would be war if war aid was sent to the rogue.
2. Heft sent war aid to the rogue.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Actually you left out a few things. First, we let in a nation believing he was attacking in self defense. Second, when RoK came to us with qualms we informed them that until they offered proof of wrongdoing the member in question would be protected. RoK then promises aid and a hold on attacks until the member is cleared for attack. Third, then RoK attacks despite its word and never gives us the logs we wanted to see.

As for "NSO not informing GATO," I'll be digging through my logs later. You can see everything. Furthermore you'll see that Omni made no mention of any possible "violation" until after we had been talking for hours. For hours. He had plenty of time to bring up any gross "violation" on our part if one really existed. No, he managed to do this all within a few hours, and after having been in a planning and strategic communications channel for hours.[/color]

[James Wilson]

[quote name='Wad of Lint' timestamp='1281369900' post='2407675']
So you admit you knew Saturday night? Where was our notice?
[/quote]
Where was ours?

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='SoADarthCyfe6' timestamp='1281367671' post='2407602']
The fact that a 16 man alliance had informed GATO before NSO, a 169 man alliance was incapable of telling GATO what's up, should be enough said there.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]And the fact that a 16 man alliance knew more about what was going on than the NSO says a lot about what kind of situation this was.[/color]

[Sir Sci]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1281370156' post='2407684']
[color="#0000FF"]Actually you left out a few things. First, we let in a nation believing he was attacking in self defense. Second, when RoK came to us with qualms we informed them that until they offered proof of wrongdoing the member in question would be protected. RoK then promises aid and a hold on attacks until the member is cleared for attack. Third, then RoK attacks despite its word and never gives us the logs we wanted to see.

As for "NSO not informing GATO," I'll be digging through my logs later. You can see everything. Furthermore you'll see that Omni made no mention of any possible "violation" until after we had been talking for hours. For hours. He had plenty of time to bring up any gross "violation" on our part if one really existed. No, he managed to do this all within a few hours, and after having been in a planning and strategic communications channel for hours.[/color]
[/quote]

This may be a failing on my part, but I suppose I just assumed that no alliance accepted a member who is in an active war. It is standing policy in GATO that if a nation is currently at war, regardless of if it is aggressive or defensive. We trying and help the applicant resolve the issue and then we let them in when peace is achieved. Is that not a standard policy across CN, because it just seems like common sense.

I have no knowledge of the rest of what you said though. I am quite intrigued. I look forward to that information being released. Believe it or not, I am not against the NSO. I simply do not feel like GATO is wrong. If, indeed, there is concrete evidence that we are mistaken, then I am interested in knowing about it.

[James Wilson]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1281370598' post='2407697']
[color="#0000FF"]And the fact that a 16 man alliance knew more about what was going on than the NSO says a lot about what kind of situation this was.[/color]
[/quote]
I'm sorry, but you have still failed to point out, why during all these "talks and negotiations" you didn't tell us that you guys were having a problem?

[SpoiL]

[quote name='James Wilson' timestamp='1281370473' post='2407693']
Where was ours?
[/quote]

Wait hold on, so you didn't get the war memo at 4:53:14 PM Sunday EST?!! This is an outrage!

[James Wilson]

[quote name='SpoiL' timestamp='1281370813' post='2407706']
Wait hold on, so you didn't get the war memo at 4:53:14 PM Sunday EST?!! This is an outrage!
[/quote]
I'm actually wondering why we didn't get a memo [i]at all[/i]. You know, the memo about how you guys were in a situation with RoK and found out that it might lead to war? That memo.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Wad of Lint' timestamp='1281369900' post='2407675']
So you admit you knew Saturday night? Where was our notice?
[/quote]

No I said VE knew. GATO!= VE

[quote name='SpoiL' timestamp='1281370813' post='2407706']
Wait hold on, so you didn't get the war memo at 4:53:14 PM Sunday EST?!! This is an outrage!
[/quote]

Your friend just said that Heft done what he done earlier than that at around 12:00-ish. If that were true then we should have received something then since everyone was up for four more hours. It doesn't take five hours to write a pm it only takes five seconds.

[Wad of Lint]

[quote name='James Wilson' timestamp='1281370473' post='2407693']
Where was ours?
[/quote]

You missed the entire point.

The kids version:
NSO is happily playing in the school yard. Big bad bullies RoK and VE begin talking about beating up NSO. GATO overhears. The next day NSO is warned by friends. NSO informs his other friends. RoK and VE go beat on NSO. GATO ends friendship with NSO because NSO didn't tell GATO he was going to get beat up earlier!

Now you get it? We cannot tell you something we do not know. It's laughably impossible. Fortunately I like laughing, currently at GATO. The point is you seem to have had impending knowledge of certainty of war far before NSO did, and yet chose not to inform us. Or at least that is what Omniscient's post indicates. I hope you wish to provide some further clarification, or this joke needs no punchline.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='James Wilson' timestamp='1281370924' post='2407711']
I'm actually wondering why we didn't get a memo [i]at all[/i]. You know, the memo about how you guys were in a situation with RoK and found out that it might lead to war? That memo.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]You (or at the very least Omni) got quite a bit of warning once we realized we had a situation at hand. You were the first alliance we told. I have hours of logs talking to Omni about it.[/color]

[Thrash]

[quote name='Wad of Lint' timestamp='1281371118' post='2407719']
The point is you seem to have had impending knowledge of certainty of war far before NSO did, and yet chose not to inform us. Or at least that is what Omniscient's post indicates.
[/quote]

That's what I've gathered too.

[Goldie]

VE told GATO sometime around 3 PM EST, which is when we were able to get a hold of Omni.

[James Wilson]

[quote name='Wad of Lint' timestamp='1281371118' post='2407719']
You missed the entire point.

The kids version:
NSO is happily playing in the school yard. Big bad bullies RoK and VE begin talking about beating up NSO. GATO overhears. The next day NSO is warned by friends. NSO informs his other friends. RoK and VE go beat on NSO. GATO ends friendship with NSO because NSO didn't tell GATO he was going to get beat up earlier!

Now you get it? We cannot tell you something we do not know. It's laughably impossible. Fortunately I like laughing, currently at GATO. The point is you seem to have had impending knowledge of certainty of war far before NSO did, and yet chose not to inform us. Or at least that is what Omniscient's post indicates. I hope you wish to provide some further clarification, or this joke needs no punchline.
[/quote]
Your !@#$%^& kidding right?

[22:17] <VanHooIII[RoK]> And we'd consider aid sent to a nation we deem a rogue and are at war with as an act of war

Do you need me to tell you in the kids version what that means? Well, little boy, it means that if you help that bad kid who hurt them, they'll hurt you too.

Now do you get it? You knew RoK threatened war. I like laughing too. At how incompetent your government seems to be. You knew about a possible war WELL before anyone told us anything.

[Wad of Lint]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1281371453' post='2407730']
VE told GATO sometime around 3 PM EST, which is when we were able to get a hold of Omni.
[/quote]

So what you are saying is, even if we had known beforehand, the soonest we could have told Omni was 3 PM EST? Not long before conversations with him did start?

I'm totally understanding this non-inform issue.

[James Wilson]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1281371374' post='2407727']
[color="#0000FF"]You (or at the very least Omni) got quite a bit of warning once we realized we had a situation at hand. You were the first alliance we told. I have hours of logs talking to Omni about it.[/color]
[/quote]
Really, so how long ofter this log:

[22:17] <VanHooIII[RoK]> And we'd consider aid sent to a nation we deem a rogue and are at war with as an act of war

Did you inform us that you had a problem and a possible war on your hands?