In Response to Recent Drama

[magicninja]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281639960' post='2413010']
Would it have worked if someone had challenged that rule?
[/quote]

The !@#$%* of it is that rule was at the same time being taken out because we knew it to be !@#$%^&*. However the vote to change that (and a handful of other crap rules) ended after the 7 congressmen had put in their votes. Besides that law only takes effect once registered in the Congressional Library. From my view the whole !@#$@#$ affair has just been about the most ridiculous !@#$%* timing and bad luck. The day this all went down was a day I decided to not show up so I had no idea any of this happened until after it was done. By the time I knew what happened this thread was already 25 pages long. The timing of the treaty cancellation even if we consider the reasons for canceling perfect was put out at the absolute worst possible time. The whole vote to cancel was screwed by the rules governing timing of voting procedure. The law that would have made that point moot could have passed the day before. It wasn't. I'm almost down to believing it was fate at this point. Everyone who tried to help just has to sit here and take it just like you do. We tried our best man. We really did.

[TehChron]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1281641273' post='2413043']
The !@#$%* of it is that rule was at the same time being taken out because we knew it to be !@#$%^&*. However the vote to change that (and a handful of other crap rules) ended after the 7 congressmen had put in their votes. Besides that law only takes effect once registered in the Congressional Library. From my view the whole !@#$@#$ affair has just been about the most ridiculous !@#$%* timing and bad luck. The day this all went down was a day I decided to not show up so I had no idea any of this happened until after it was done. By the time I knew what happened this thread was already 25 pages long. The timing of the treaty cancellation even if we consider the reasons for canceling perfect was put out at the absolute worst possible time. The whole vote to cancel was screwed by the rules governing timing of voting procedure. The law that would have made that point moot could have passed the day before. It wasn't. I'm almost down to believing it was fate at this point. Everyone who tried to help just has to sit here and take it just like you do. We tried our best man. We really did.
[/quote]
But they didn't have to believe Omni for the first unanimous vote. I believe you really did try your best. Sorry it was meaningless.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281641053' post='2413038']
I'd honestly be more inclined to believe in the sincerity of their change of heart if they didn't try to reverse the decision via technicality themselves. I mean, if a plurality of the changes had been to "no" rather than abstain, then Id be willing to believe that. Or if they all switched to abstain as a protest.

But we have a situation where only two of them switched to "no", and the others switched simply to abstain, which could mean anything. And ultimately did nothing.
[/quote]

Hell, they could have switched to abstain because they didn't want to take part in what they considered a sham of a vote. I don't know their reasons for all we both know they had perfectly good reasons that would satisfy your need to dwell on it. You're too quick to judge them for the worse when them switching their vote would have in fact helped.

[TehChron]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1281641484' post='2413050']
Hell, they could have switched to abstain because they didn't want to take part in what they considered a sham of a vote. I don't know their reasons for all we both know they had perfectly good reasons that would satisfy your need to dwell on it. You're too quick to judge them for the worse when them switching their vote would have in fact helped.
[/quote]
But they voted unanimously with Omni to approve the cancellation in the first place. Where was the faith? The trust in waiting to hear our side of the story?

[HeroofTime55]

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why democracy is an absolutely terrible way to run your alliance.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281641411' post='2413048']
But they didn't have to believe Omni for the first unanimous vote. I believe you really did try your best. Sorry it was meaningless.
[/quote]

Omni didn't give them absolutely everything. He left out things like you weren't asking for help which to him maybe didn't effect the point on whether we should cancel. The congressmen felt different after they learned a few facts. At the time of the first vote they had to go with what they were presented and from what I read if I was a congressmen that didn't know the full story and didn't really know anyone at NSO I would have voted to cancel as well.

[magicninja]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281641609' post='2413053']
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why democracy is an absolutely terrible way to run your alliance.
[/quote]

It works most of the time but yes democracy does make you more prone to bureaucratic !@#$ that ends up hurting in the end.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281641574' post='2413052']
But they voted unanimously with Omni to approve the cancellation in the first place. Where was the faith? The trust in waiting to hear our side of the story?
[/quote]

Like I said from what they were presented it looked like an easy decision to someone who didn't have friends like I do in NSO. The Speaker probably rushed the vote because he figured if we had proper reason to cancel it wasn't worth being dragged to war. He didn't know you weren't asking for help in the first place. If he had we would have taken our time and probably come to a better decision. Once they had all the info (your welcome) they tried to take it back. It just didn't work out.

[agafaba]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281641574' post='2413052']
But they voted unanimously with Omni to approve the cancellation in the first place. Where was the faith? The trust in waiting to hear our side of the story?
[/quote]

To be honest if I was in that situation I could see myself voting against NSO. You trust fellow government members, especially ones high up, to tell the truth. Add to that the shock that your ally is trying to screw you over and emotionally I would be pissed.
I would be even more upset and betrayed once I found out the truth, and would likely try to reverse it, but things would have still played out all the same.

[TehChron]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1281642066' post='2413073']
Like I said from what they were presented it looked like an easy decision to someone who didn't have friends like I do in NSO. The Speaker probably rushed the vote because he figured if we had proper reason to cancel it wasn't worth being dragged to war. He didn't know you weren't asking for help in the first place. If he had we would have taken our time and probably come to a better decision. Once they had all the info (your welcome) they tried to take it back. It just didn't work out.
[/quote]
So let me get this straight.

Omni lied to them (knowingly). They didnt bother fact checking to see if we really would try to blatantly screw them over without some reason for it, as an MDP partner (knowingly), and then when they discover they acted hastily and based on a lie, they try and take it back.

I don't think that their loyalty to us is the reason they decided to backtrack.

[quote]To be honest if I was in that situation I could see myself voting against NSO. You trust fellow government members, especially ones high up, to tell the truth. Add to that the shock that your ally is trying to screw you over and emotionally I would be pissed.
I would be even more upset and betrayed once I found out the truth, and would likely try to reverse it, but things would have still played out all the same.[/quote]Yeah except we weren't.

And the idea of us trying to screw over an ally is so out of character as to be ridiculous. They should have at least known that after what happened in the last war, and tried to see what happened.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Chron

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281642514' post='2413088']
And the idea of us trying to screw over an ally is so out of character as to be ridiculous. They should have at least known that after what happened in the last war, and tried to see what happened.
[/quote]

Chron, was it you that went and had a chat with King Zog regarding getting Pacifica beat up again? Or something else to the detriment of Pacifica?

[DragonsPhyre]

We bound ourselves to rules and procedure to ensure as much of the alliance is as a close to an even playing field at all times, whether it's a court case, an election, a Congress vote, or simply speaking your mind. Those rules ensure that every member is bound by the same limitations and expectations as anyone else, limiting the effects of individuals that would seek to twist them against us. That means technicalities happen. Sometimes, it's a good thing. Sometimes, it's a bad thing.

When a rule turns out to hurt more than help, we have to change it. There was an amendment already being voted on at the same time as the treaty thing that removed this particular requirement, meaning votes will last 24 hours from now on.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281642514' post='2413088']
So let me get this straight.

Omni lied to them (knowingly). They didnt bother fact checking to see if we really would try to blatantly screw them over without some reason for it, as an MDP partner (knowingly), and then when they discover they acted hastily and based on a lie, they try and take it back.

I don't think that their loyalty to us is the reason they decided to backtrack.

Yeah except we weren't.

And the idea of us trying to screw over an ally is so out of character as to be ridiculous. They should have at least known that after what happened in the last war, and tried to see what happened.
[/quote]

He didn't lie from what I saw. He just didn't tell everything. I filled in the blanks and they saw that maybe they needed to analyze the new info before making a decision. Loyalty to you probably wasn't the reason they backtracked. They probably backtracked because they wanted to check out the added info before coming to a final decision because an ally at least deserves due consideration. They were willing to give it to you after everything was brought up. We just got screwed by that law. What more can I say really.

[USOFAA]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1281643115' post='2413113']
He didn't lie from what I saw. He just didn't tell everything. I filled in the blanks and they saw that maybe they needed to analyze the new info before making a decision. Loyalty to you probably wasn't the reason they backtracked. They probably backtracked because they wanted to check out the added info before coming to a final decision because an ally at least deserves due consideration. They were willing to give it to you after everything was brought up. We just got screwed by that law. What more can I say really.
[/quote]
Umm if we did not vote to do it in the first place. The law would not have mattered ? Did they just change the vote to say they did. And before they ever did had a clue the law would stop them from changing it.

[magicninja]

[quote name='USOFAA' timestamp='1281643822' post='2413138']
Umm if we did not vote to do it in the first place. The law would not have mattered ? Did they just change the vote to say they did. And before they ever did had a clue the law would stop them from changing it.
[/quote]

Yeah if they didn't vote to cancel in the first place the little law wouldn't have mattered. Before i pointed a thing or two out the congress believe there was a pretty airtight case to cancel. The law has rarely made a difference and it was getting tossed at the same time because someone pointed out that the 7th guy to vote would never be able to change his vote which is kind of unfair.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' timestamp='1281642991' post='2413110']
Chron, was it you that went and had a chat with King Zog regarding getting Pacifica beat up again? Or something else to the detriment of Pacifica?
[/quote]
I was extraordinarily bored at the time, and thought it'd be fun to get logs of him plotting to destroy the NPO.

If you want, I can share my plan?

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1281643115' post='2413113']
He didn't lie from what I saw. He just didn't tell everything. I filled in the blanks and they saw that maybe they needed to analyze the new info before making a decision. Loyalty to you probably wasn't the reason they backtracked. They probably backtracked because they wanted to check out the added info before coming to a final decision because an ally at least deserves due consideration. They were willing to give it to you after everything was brought up. We just got screwed by that law. What more can I say really.
[/quote]Omni [i]intentionally left the important parts out[/i], and then outright claimed we were trying to set up GATO with his misrepresentation of the facts. When he already knew we weren't.

He lied. Quit defending him.

And I love that your Congress decided to fact check after it became apparent that this was a massive embarrassment for them. Good to know they showed such trust after the fact.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Chron

[Tyranus]

I expected no less of you.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281644341' post='2413150']
I was extraordinarily bored at the time, and thought it'd be fun to get logs of him plotting to destroy the NPO.

If you want, I can share my plan?

Omni [i]intentionally left the important parts out[/i], and then outright claimed we were trying to set up GATO with his misrepresentation of the facts. When he already knew we weren't.

He lied. Quit defending him.

And I love that your Congress decided to fact check after it became apparent that this was a massive embarrassment for them. Good to know they showed such trust after the fact.
[/quote]

I don't know if it was intentional or if he thought the points that were not brought up would have any actual relevance his reasoning for canceling. Things like you not asking for help really don't pertain to the communication issue so I can see why he neglected to bring it up. As for a claim about you setting us up i don;t think that was part of the evidence he put to congress. He gave them the logs of Heft talking to Hoo and the logs of him asking why no one came to us and that was pretty much it. To congress it would look like you had neglected the treaty and violated it. In reality that is the only relevant bits to whether a communication violation had taken place. It was never about fact checking after the embarrassment. Embarrassment had nothing to do with why they took back the vote. That has been made clear. The thing is you are running out of excuses so now you have to attack anything that keeps your hate ship afloat.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1281647346' post='2413218']
I don't know if it was intentional or if he thought the points that were not brought up would have any actual relevance his reasoning for canceling. Things like you not asking for help really don't pertain to the communication issue so I can see why he neglected to bring it up. As for a claim about you setting us up i don;t think that was part of the evidence he put to congress. He gave them the logs of Heft talking to Hoo and the logs of him asking why no one came to us and that was pretty much it. To congress it would look like you had neglected the treaty and violated it. In reality that is the only relevant bits to whether a communication violation had taken place. It was never about fact checking after the embarrassment. Embarrassment had nothing to do with why they took back the vote. That has been made clear. The thing is you are running out of excuses so now you have to attack anything that keeps your hate ship afloat.
[/quote]

I still can't believe you're still arguing about this. Whether or not we were going to ask for help is irrelevant. Canceling over Heft not saying anything for over a period of an hour or two is out of the world dumb.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281647503' post='2413227']
I still can't believe you're still arguing about this. Whether or not we were going to ask for help is irrelevant. Canceling over Heft not saying anything for over a period of an hour or two is out of the world dumb.
[/quote]

That's your opinion and I thought this was an over night to the next afternoon thing as in no one said anything for 12 hours or more. Heft could have said something that night or you know not even decide to play games with Hoo in the first place. You guys think it's unreasonable to expect that and apparently Omni believes it's a reasonable expectation. Just opinions. Bottom line is Omni believes expectations weren't met regardless of your excuses and had enough logs to justify it to congress.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1281647924' post='2413242']
That's your opinion and I thought this was an over night to the next afternoon thing as in no one said anything for 12 hours or more. Heft could have said something that night or you know not even decide to play games with Hoo in the first place. You guys think it's unreasonable to expect that and apparently Omni believes it's a reasonable expectation. Just opinions. Bottom line is Omni believes expectations weren't met regardless of your excuses and had enough logs to justify it to congress.
[/quote]

Well, you're right. It is my opinion. Hence why we're all so frustrated with you guys.

[TehChron]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1281647924' post='2413242']
That's your opinion and I thought this was an over night to the next afternoon thing as in no one said anything for 12 hours or more. Heft could have said something that night or you know not even decide to play games with Hoo in the first place. You guys think it's unreasonable to expect that and apparently Omni believes it's a reasonable expectation. Just opinions. Bottom line is Omni believes expectations weren't met regardless of your excuses and had enough logs to justify it to congress.
[/quote]
You know up until this I was honestly feeling bad.

Thanks for justifying the feelings of betrayal we have.

[quote]I don't know if it was intentional or if he thought the points that were not brought up would have any actual relevance his reasoning for canceling. Things like you not asking for help really don't pertain to the communication issue so I can see why he neglected to bring it up. As for a claim about you setting us up i don;t think that was part of the evidence he put to congress. He gave them the logs of Heft talking to Hoo and the logs of him asking why no one came to us and that was pretty much it. To congress it would look like you had neglected the treaty and violated it. In reality that is the only relevant bits to whether a communication violation had taken place. It was never about fact checking after the embarrassment. Embarrassment had nothing to do with why they took back the vote. That has been made clear. The thing is you are running out of excuses so now you have to attack anything that keeps your hate ship afloat.[/quote]This is amazing.

So essentially, whether or not we meant any harm to you guys had no bearing on Omni's reasons.

Well no kidding. Thats more or less what the problem is. That you went along with it, and continue to justify it, does little more than affirm our reasons for being done with you and your alliance.

And yeah, sure, we should definitely believe what you have to say about your senators motivations. You've only done nothing but justify us being backstabbed and then taken a holier-than-thou stance when we vent our feelings of betrayal.

As I said before, Im sorry your efforts were useless, and Im sorry for the fact you received the brunt of our frustration. But that's all Im sorry for.

Maybe if GATO were the ones being rolled you'd have a reason for playing the victim, but you're not. The excuses you're making for your alliance are so blatantly insincere that it's mind-boggling.

Why not get those senators that were justified canceling our treaty over an imaginary communications issue out here to tell us that themselves? Or even Omni?

You know, once he's done deciding whether or not Heft spoke to him that Sunday before RV got to him, or being the first ones to tell us about the incoming threat of war, or whatever else he's been saying to make himself look good.

[Esau of Isaac]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281649781' post='2413301']Why not get those senators that were justified canceling our treaty over an imaginary communications issue out here to tell us that themselves? Or even Omni?[/quote]
Ever since GWII, GATO's generally encouraged members to stay away from the OWF during conflict. So I'd say that's probably why they haven't said much here. Though I don't really see GATO members post with their accounts on these forums in the first place, so that's probably also a factor. I can certainly tell them you'd like word straight from the horse's mouth, if you'd like.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Esau of Isaac' timestamp='1281653901' post='2413386']
Ever since GWII, GATO's generally encouraged members to stay away from the OWF during conflict. So I'd say that's probably why they haven't said much here. Though I don't really see GATO members post with their accounts on these forums in the first place, so that's probably also a factor. I can certainly tell them you'd like word straight from the horse's mouth, if you'd like.
[/quote]
Sure, and thanks. They deserve to catch some of this flak theyre having uninvolved parties take due to their absence.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Chron

[magicninja]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281649781' post='2413301']
You know up until this I was honestly feeling bad.

Thanks for justifying the feelings of betrayal we have.

This is amazing.

So essentially, whether or not we meant any harm to you guys had no bearing on Omni's reasons.

Well no kidding. Thats more or less what the problem is. That you went along with it, and continue to justify it, does little more than affirm our reasons for being done with you and your alliance.

And yeah, sure, we should definitely believe what you have to say about your senators motivations. You've only done nothing but justify us being backstabbed and then taken a holier-than-thou stance when we vent our feelings of betrayal.

As I said before, Im sorry your efforts were useless, and Im sorry for the fact you received the brunt of our frustration. But that's all Im sorry for.

Maybe if GATO were the ones being rolled you'd have a reason for playing the victim, but you're not. The excuses you're making for your alliance are so blatantly insincere that it's mind-boggling.

Why not get those senators that were justified canceling our treaty over an imaginary communications issue out here to tell us that themselves? Or even Omni?

You know, once he's done deciding whether or not Heft spoke to him that Sunday before RV got to him, or being the first ones to tell us about the incoming threat of war, or whatever else he's been saying to make himself look good.
[/quote]

Where did I justify what what happened? Well I guess the Heft not playing with games with Hoo thing in the first place was my only thing I was kinda confused about but you guys admitted to him being wrong so cool. I'm just trying to tell you how it happened.

Edited August 13, 2010 by magicninja