Ragnarok Declaration of War

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1281676211' post='2413985']
I don't get this one. Rok gets to roll an alliance because their protectorate committed an act of war...?
[/quote]
Wow, leave out a lot of information why don't you. NSO is getting rolled for aiding a nation at war with TENE/RoK

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Lord Boris' timestamp='1281676364' post='2413987']
what you gave as a 'response' was pretty weak, actually. You try to justify his actions in it, but justification or lack thereof does not is not a requirement for the existance of something. Who fired the first spy attacks? We may never know. What we do know, however,is that he had been in a state of conflict with a Ragnarok protectorate prior to his joining NSO, and NSO opted to incite conflict by fueling the fire with aid after a direct warning not to do so.
[/quote]
Wait, you are saying my response is weak when I actually provided facts and you are providing suppositions? Really? Come on. I don't even know you but I assume since you decided to respond to my posts that you at least have a somewhat good opinion of yourself. Surely you can do better.

What we [i]know[/i] is that the only provable wars were instigated by TENE. Period. Everything Sedric did after the fact was defensive so it doesn't matter who TENE is a protectorate of in that instance, they were the aggressor, which I believe invalidates the defensive aspect of their treaty (not 100% certain of that, just going by what is fairly standard in such situations) so again, RoK had nothing to do with this situation at all. They involved themselves by declaring aggressive wars against a member of the NSO, which was a completely, and some would argue, better, justified CB against RoK.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281676392' post='2413989']
The first war in that string was launched by Sedrick, you can twist that worm all you want, wont change the fact its a worm. Just because Sedrick "offered" peace doesn't mean jack if it isn't accepted by alliance leadership. What makes no sense is NSO thinking they can aid a nation at war with other alliances and walk away.
[/quote]
Yes, he launched in response to a TENE spying attack, which again, is at least as justifiable as a CB as $6mil.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281676507' post='2413991']
Wow, leave out a lot of information why don't you. NSO is getting rolled for aiding a nation at war with TENE/RoK
[/quote]
Wow, leave out a lot of facts why don't you? NSO is getting rolled because RoK hoped for escalation.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1281676765' post='2413999']
[b]Yes, he launched in response to a TENE spying attack[/b], which again, is at least as justifiable as a CB as $6mil.
[/quote]
Care to explain to me how any of this was the business of the NSO?

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281676923' post='2414006']
Care to explain to me how any of this was the business of the NSO?
[/quote]
Care to explain to me how any of this was the business of RoK?

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1281676822' post='2414001']
Wow, leave out a lot of facts why don't you? NSO is getting rolled because RoK hoped for escalation.
[/quote]
Hey, I won't deny your statement. Isn't it a shame NSO gave them good cause for escalation?

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1281676995' post='2414007']
Care to explain to me how any of this was the business of RoK?
[/quote]
It's rather simple, I would think a man of your stature and extensive experience would be on top of it, it's called a treaty between TENE and RoK.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281676998' post='2414008']
Hey, I won't deny your statement. Isn't it a shame NSO gave them good cause for escalation?
[/quote]
Yes, it really is. I have not stated that the NSO is blameless for this event. I have stated that both alliances screwed the pooch royally.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281676923' post='2414006']
Care to explain to me how any of this was the business of the NSO?
[/quote]
It's rather simple, I would think a man of your stature and extensive experience would be on top of it, it's called a membership agreement between Sedric and NSO.

Which generally is more of a connection than a protectorate agreement.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1281677183' post='2414017']
It's rather simple, I would think a man of your stature and extensive experience would be on top of it, it's called a membership agreement between Sedric and NSO.

Which generally is more of a connection than a protectorate agreement.
[/quote]
This is were we part paths again, in my mind the existing wars trump the membership granted by NSO. If I remember correctly, and I believe you reiterated it early, when you ruled NSO applying members at war had to get them squared away before they were granted aid or protection. May I ask why you had that policy?

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Lord Boris' timestamp='1281675356' post='2413952']
I believe this is the part of the thread where Mia brutally slaughters and dismantles HoT and we all celebrate with coffee and donuts.
[/quote]You wish.

[quote name='Salmia' timestamp='1281675031' post='2413946']
Bold is mine.

You know, throughout this entire thread, you've sounded like a cheerleader for NSO, willing to twist [i]anything[/i] to get your own way and ignoring that doesn't match up to you.

The facts are laid out in this thread, everyone knows them. It is up to people to choose their own interpretation. The facts are there but the implications and the behind the word twisting you're trying to do? That is you trying add your interpretation into it.

We've moved beyond the facts already, you're just trying to twist the facts to your point of view of "NSO is innocent! NSO did nothing wrong!"[/quote]I'm going to go ahead and stop you right here, because that is not my position. I have repeatedly stated that Heft made an error in ordering the aid. I have said it over and over, countless times, and you have the nerve to distort my position for you own clever little rant. No.

[quote]But to say NSO did no wrong is to paint a picture of sugar and plums and argue something that has long been lost. People do not debate the validity of the CB - that is accepted. A casus bellus is up to the alliance declaring that makes it valid to them. Whether the rest of us agree with it is up to us. [/quote]This is also not the case. The very act of posting our reasons on this forum throughout history is our attempt to justify our actions to the masses. That is why these matter have always been posted here, that is why these matters are brought up for debate. To argue that a [i]Casus Belli[/i] is valid simply because the declaring alliance claims it is, is an absurdity in the highest degree. It's a line of thought perpetuated by the "We don't care what you think" statements leaders always use to try and salvage some PR, when in fact it is proven they do care by declaring their acts before this anarchic court of the world. If RoK did not care, they would just have attacked and this thread would not exist.

[quote]I've watched throughout this thread as you twisted everything to the side. RoK considers it an act of war against them so it is an act of war. This war proves that. You can't stop the fact they did declare. So it was an act of war and has been considered so in the past. [/quote]This war only proves that RoK was willing to go to war over the matter. The outcome of the war is going to prove that RoK is better tied into the web than NSO. This proves nothing about the validity of RoK's claims.

[quote]I've also seen you argue that an attack on a protectorate is not an attack on a protector and that a piece of paper doesn't make it reality. Do you realize what standards you've been arguing will turn us back to the stone age? In order to win your "PR" battle for whatever reason, you discard everything that would make us recede boundaries. Treaties are accepted facts, an attack on a protectorate is an attack on a protector. You can't dictate someone's treaty to someone else.[/quote]You, like everyone else, fail to grasp the philosophical point. It's in the details. An attack on TENE is not an attack on RoK, however RoK is contractually obligated to treat the event [i]as if it was[/i] an attack on them, even if though is not. This is the reality of treaties behind their fancy text. If it wasn't, cowards wouldn't be able to cancel their treaties like they do when war breaks out, and NSO's allies would have had to charge in blindly against NSO's demands because a state of war would have existed absent any action on their part.

And the kicker is that it is a moot point, because NSO attacked neither TENE nor RoK. The issue is an act of war in the sending of aid, not in a direct attack as specified by the text of the treaty.

[quote]You can disagree but you're trying to shove your views and replace the facts with your slant on it. The facts are there already, you're just trying to put your own spin on it and in it - you're damaging things by running through standards we've already set. Do you really want to send the message it is okay for people to attack protectorates and protectors won't protect the protectorate? 64digits was a protectorate once upon a time, TPF protected you. An attack on you would've been an attack on TPF and TPF would've responded. [/quote]64Digits remains for the moment a protectorate under TPF, and we have held treaties that state tht "An attack on one is an attack on TPF" and such. Again, while the end result is essentially the same, that is just fanciful text. TPF is obligated by contract to treat an attack on us [i]as if it were[/i] an attack on them. This is also how many non-protectorate treaties function. There is not some metaphysical alteration of reality. Treaties are contracts between parties, where the parties agree to abide by certain terms. I can write down:

"Article 8: TPF and 64Digits agree to the spontaneous creation of 1 million tech and 68 billion dollars, to be shared between the signatories."

You tell me if that statement becomes true just because we signed it into a treaty. Hint: It doesn't.


And with that, I've addressed the points of your post. I've omitted parts which are either redundant or to which I cannot respond because you got my position wrong.

Edited August 13, 2010 by HeroofTime55

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281677423' post='2414023']
This is were we part paths again, in my mind the existing wars trump the membership granted by NSO. If I remember correctly, and I believe you reiterated it early, when you ruled NSO applying members at war had to get them squared away before they were granted aid or protection. May I ask why you had that policy?
[/quote]
Because I'm a dick?

Anyway, it doesn't matter, I don't make NSO's policy any longer so if they want to let people in then they can and accept the consequences, which this undoubtedly is. I do not believe that a nation in defensive wars (with anyone) is automatically defined as being an aggressor to that alliance's protectors, which is your main argument. The only proof available points to TENE, for whatever reason, launching a spying attack against Sedric. That was the initial provable event. TENE was the initial aggressor. RoK was not involved. RoK did not get involved until they too decided to be the aggressor and declare on Sedric after he was a member of NSO. I may not agree with some of the events that occurred after that point and how certain things were handled but that doesn't change the facts. RoK declared upon a member of the NSO. That is a valid CB. It just is.

Anyway, it is late for me and I am about to log out.

It has been fun, as usual. Goodnight.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1281677183' post='2414017']
It's rather simple, I would think a man of your stature and extensive experience would be on top of it, it's called a membership agreement between Sedric and NSO.

Which generally is more of a connection than a protectorate agreement.
[/quote]

Ivan you've lost your edge in your semi-retirement.

Nobody is questioning the NSO's ability to offer anyone they want membership. But if you really are going to accept any and all you are going to inherit their problems too. So you offered to protect Sedrick cool. Guess what, that makes his war your war. Its really that straight forward.

Heft instead of doing the sane thing and asking what Hoo wanted to get Sedrick off RoK's hitlist sent aid to a nation at war and served up a valid CB on a silver platter.

Adopt all the strays you want, just remember to get them their shots first.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1281678320' post='2414039']
Ivan you've lost your edge in your semi-retirement.

Nobody is questioning the NSO's ability to offer anyone they want membership. But if you really are going to accept any and all you are going to inherit their problems too. So you offered to protect Sedrick cool. Guess what, that makes his war your war. Its really that straight forward.

Heft instead of doing the sane thing and asking what Hoo wanted to get Sedrick off RoK's hitlist sent aid to a nation at war and served up a valid CB on a silver platter.

Adopt all the strays you want, just remember to get them their shots first.
[/quote]
I think you missed the point of my post. I was simply mimicking MM's response to the same question from me.

Please see several of my other comments in this topic where I elaborate on exactly the points you make.

I do not believe NSO is blameless. But I do believe that objectively both alliances had equally valid CBs for this to go down. RoK chose to act on it because they believed there would be escalation, at least that is my opinion. They have sacrificed a protectorate in the hopes of it. TENE and NSO are the only alliances that will bleed in this war that never had to be.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1281678526' post='2414041']
I think you missed the point of my post. I was simply mimicking MM's response to the same question from me.

Please see several of my other comments in this topic where I elaborate on exactly the points you make.

I do not believe NSO is blameless. But I do believe that objectively both alliances had equally valid CBs for this to go down. RoK chose to act on it because they believed there would be escalation, at least that is my opinion. They have sacrificed a protectorate in the hopes of it. TENE and NSO are the only alliances that will bleed in this war that never had to be.
[/quote]And it doesn't get much better than that. RoK caused far more harm to TENE by their actions. RoK could have negotiated to get TENE a huge chunk of cash in exchange for the nonexistent damages done onto them. Instead, TENE is thrust by RoK into a war and is receiving a crap load of damage. Good job looking out for TENE's best interests over your own! Oh, wait...

If I were TENE, or any RoK protectorate, I would at this point start seriously considering whether it was in my best interests to stay with RoK.

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281679355' post='2414053']
And it doesn't get much better than that. RoK caused far more harm to TENE by their actions. RoK could have negotiated to get TENE a huge chunk of cash in exchange for the nonexistent damages done onto them. Instead, TENE is thrust by RoK into a war and is receiving a crap load of damage. Good job looking out for TENE's best interests over your own! Oh, wait...

If I were TENE, or any RoK protectorate, I would at this point start seriously considering whether it was in my best interests to stay with RoK.
[/quote]

The NSO does not pay reparations and this policy was made clear to us pre-war. TENE would not have received a dime from the New Sith Order. Keep reaching though.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1281678526' post='2414041']

I do not believe NSO is blameless. But I do believe that objectively both alliances had equally valid CBs for this to go down. [b]RoK chose to act on it because they believed there would be escalation[/b], at least that is my opinion. They have sacrificed a protectorate in the hopes of it. TENE and NSO are the only alliances that will bleed in this war that never had to be.
[/quote]

The bold is mine.

There [i]could[/i] be escalation, yes, to have not thought or considered that would be stupid. However, that was not the primary motivation here. It is as stated in the DoW. Nothing more, nothing less.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1281679571' post='2414057']
The NSO does not pay reparations and this policy was made clear to us pre-war. TENE would not have received a dime from the New Sith Order. Keep reaching though.
[/quote]
The NSO also does not aid new members who haven't yet resolved their conflicts. Except Heft ordered such in error. So I don't see why NSO would be unwilling to pay a small sum of cash to make the problem go away.

Not to mention that this is not the only solution. RoK could have requested in place of reparations that the NSO put it's own nations on the line and attack Sedrick to ZI, or any number of alternate claims.

You accuse me of reaching, but the fact is that it is [b]you[/b] who refused to negotiate with the Sith, and you therefore can have no idea as to what the Sith might have offered to solve the situation.

It is [b]you[/b] who failed your protectorate by taking the aggressive route, in the hopes that you might spark a global conflict. Or maybe you really just do hate the Sith that much. Either way, TENE is suffering because of your hasty and ill thought actions. You have literally failed as a protector.

[Keres]

[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' timestamp='1281679610' post='2414058']
The bold is mine.

There [i]could[/i] be escalation, yes, to have not thought or considered that would be stupid. However, that was not the primary motivation here. It is as stated in the DoW. Nothing more, nothing less.
[/quote]

*Sarcasm*We all know the true motivation is going after NPO*Sarcasm off*

or some other silly conspiracy theory NSO's side keep coming with because they just dont have any better

Edited August 13, 2010 by Deathistan

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281680069' post='2414064']
Either way, TENE is suffering because of your hasty and ill thought actions. You have literally failed as a protector.
[/quote]

I have already seen multiple people bat you aside every time you have posted the last few days ... you have added nothing to your argument that you haven't already said before and you have yet to win a single point in any debate that you have had, despite a considerable amount of effort on your part. However, I will pluck this nugget out of your typical drivel and respond as I feel it is worth responding to:

TENE will be just fine, and they know that. Their nations will be rebuilt and we will have no problem helping them do so. Know what else they know? ... that Ragnarok always has their back no matter what and is the sort of protector that will go to the ends of the earth for them. They aren't a pawn, meatshield, or catalyst for something larger. They are our friends and allies and we'd (obviously) do anything to help them.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Van Hoo III

[Shodemofi-NPO]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1281680835' post='2414069']
I have already seen multiple people bat you aside every time you have posted the last few days ... you have added nothing to your argument that you haven't already said before and you have yet to win a single point in any debate that you have had despite a considerable amount of effort on your part. However, I will pluck this nugget out of your typical drivel and respond as I feel it is worth responding to:

TENE will be just fine, and they know that. Their nations will be rebuilt and we will have no problem helping them do so. Know what else they know? ... that Ragnarok always has their back no matter what and is the sort of protector that will go to the ends of the earth for them. They aren't a pawn, meatshield, or catalyst for something larger. They are our friends and allies and we'd (obviously) do anything to help them.
[/quote]
That doesn't really make sense. It's somewhat undeniable that TENE would have been better off with NSO paying some reps and not going to nuclear war. I mean, the rest of Bob appreciates you making a war, we really do, the summer was getting boring, but don't try and pretend you did this for TENE.

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='Shodemofi' timestamp='1281680986' post='2414071']
That doesn't really make sense. It's somewhat undeniable that TENE would have been better off with NSO paying some reps and not going to nuclear war. I mean, the rest of Bob appreciates you making a war, we really do, the summer was getting boring, but don't try and pretend you did this for TENE.
[/quote]


Our attacks on that nation was at the request of TENE, so yes ... this was for TENE. Also, as I already pointed out, there were no reps for them as the Sith do not pay reps. This was conveyed to us before we ever posted a DoW.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1281681093' post='2414073']
Our attacks on that nation was at the request of TENE, so yes ... this was for TENE. Also, as I already pointed out, there were no reps for them as the Sith do not pay reps. This was conveyed to us before we ever posted a DoW.
[/quote]You know, I love the personal character attacks, I really do. And it's hilarious when you tell me over IRC that I'm not taken seriously because I sprinkle my remarks such with biting words. But I think you should address the entirety of my post. You, by refusing to negotiate with the Sith, have absolutely no way of knowing what they might have offered to resolve the situation. So stop pretending you do.

[Keres]

[img]http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4420/ghostf.png[/img]

NSO is definitely NOT Looking for more trouble... are they?

edit:New Pix

Edited August 13, 2010 by Deathistan