Protection

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='Haquertal' timestamp='1280090652' post='2388641']
I could say the same thing to you, kind sir.

Also, this is a link to our raiding policies (for those who are confused/wrong/what have you):

http://cngoons.com/Board/index.php?topic=4609.msg45782#new
[/quote]


I don't care what your raiding policies are. The issue is that you were approached and asked to peace out ... you refused and stated you were going to finish your raids. This thread was created due to your response to MA's kind request to cease attacks.

I am all for your pro-raiding agenda and always have been. I am certainly not anti-raid in any way, shape, or form. I am, however, against you acting like complete morons when respectfully approached about your raids.

For all your grandstanding about proper raiding, this flies in the face of that very stance.

[Iserlohn]

[quote name='Haquertal' timestamp='1280090652' post='2388641']
I could say the same thing to you, kind sir.

Also, this is a link to our raiding policies (for those who are confused/wrong/what have you):

http://cngoons.com/Board/index.php?topic=4609.msg45782#new
[/quote]
It should be mentioned this is only up to date for a couple days ago, so wait a bit for updates before complaining about recent developments.

[Haquertal]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1280090971' post='2388650']
I don't care what your raiding policies are. The issue is that you were approached and asked to peace out ... you refused and stated you were going to finish your raids. This thread was created due to your response to MA's kind request to cease attacks.

I am all for your pro-raiding agenda and always have been. I am certainly not anti-raid in any way, shape, or form. I am, however, against you acting like complete morons when respectfully approached about your raids.

For all your grandstanding about proper raiding, this flies in the face of that very stance.
[/quote]

After asking around, the only reason that Beefspari said the raids would continue, is more or less due to the nicety of the person asking her.

Also, ideally, we should've peaced out (I won't argue with you there), but the lack of public statement of such protection made the whole thing stink, and so the raids continued until the public announcement.

[mrwuss]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1280090971' post='2388650']
I don't care what your raiding policies are. The issue is that you were approached and asked to peace out ... you refused and stated you were going to finish your raids. This thread was created due to your response to MA's kind request to cease attacks.

I am all for your pro-raiding agenda and always have been. I am certainly not anti-raid in any way, shape, or form. I am, however, against you acting like complete morons when respectfully approached about your raids.

For all your grandstanding about proper raiding, this flies in the face of that very stance.
[/quote]


I offered peace to makariosb some days ago and his reply was two cruise missiles. It seems that being "protected" is simply a term tossed around to protect the fools left in the world.

Pro Tip : When you are "protecting" someone, make sure they are on the same page with you.

I am glad you demand peace for your puppets; make sure they understand the road works both ways.

In other words, he needs to accept the peace that I reoffered.

[nippy]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1280090971' post='2388650']
I don't care what your raiding policies are. The issue is that you were approached and asked to peace out ... you refused and stated you were going to finish your raids. This thread was created due to your response to MA's kind request to cease attacks.

I am all for your pro-raiding agenda and always have been. I am certainly not anti-raid in any way, shape, or form. I am, however, against you acting like complete morons when respectfully approached about your raids.

For all your grandstanding about proper raiding, this flies in the face of that very stance.
[/quote]

You're out of line, Hoo. We don't go about dictating your alliance's policies to you, so don't do the same to us. We're not obligated to end raids on unprotected AA's, so don't act like we were.

If you have issues with our policies, feel free to discuss them with us. You calling us 'complete morons' on the OWF not only makes us not care about your opinion, but it ensures that your posts will be regarded with less seriousness in the future.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1280090971' post='2388650']
I don't care what your raiding policies are. The issue is that you were approached and asked to peace out ... you refused and stated you were going to finish your raids. This thread was created due to your response to MA's kind request to cease attacks.
[/quote]
Since I'm the person that was spoken to I'd be glad to fill you in here.

First off, I can't just take everyone's word for everything. If someone says "They're protected, trust me. There's no proof though." I asked for a link to the wiki or forums to show that they're protected. He said there is none. If in fact they were actually protected, and there was proof of it somewhere, it was his responsibility to show it to me when I asked for it because our own searches didn't find it.

[quote][4:23:37 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> So there's no information about protection on either the wiki or forums?
[4:24:12 PM] <CptGodzilla> which is why i'm not asking for reps of any sort, just giving you a heads up that the AA is protected and i would appreciate if you told your guys to offer peace[/quote]

If I could just take someone's word for a protection existing, we could be talked out of every raid that we ever did. We check a lot of places including nation bios, wiki, forums, and IRC when necessary. If nothing exists in any of those places, the raid is valid. If however we missed something, that's our fault. But in this instance, he couldn't show me that there was any protection.

Since this is a situation I haven't had to deal with yet, we didn't have an ironclad policy on what to do when someone claims protection but can't prove it. Although the fact that he couldn't show me that they WERE protected means that the raids were valid, I offered to add the AA to our protected list for future attacks. I offered this as a compromise even though I had no obligation to do so.

[quote][4:30:28 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> What I can offer is to add your guys to our inter-office do not attack list, so nobody will declare any future wars (and if they do that'll be our fault)
[4:30:44 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> But the current wars will go on unless the individual raiders would like to peace out on a personal level.
[4:31:52 PM] <CptGodzilla> and why can you not have the raids stop
[4:33:08 PM] <CptGodzilla> i mean i understand the fact that there was nothing really concrete on the wiki or forums and nothing was in the bios, which is why i'm not being a total (censored) and asking reps and what not. I'm just asking for the raids to stop
[4:34:00 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> I'm compromising as far as making sure that your guys don't get raided in the future. I'm offering that because the raids as far as I can see are valid since no protection notice exists.
[4:38:20 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> I might also suggest you put the ntoice up somewhere on the wiki or forums so it doesn't happen with another group.
[4:48:35 PM] <CptGodzilla> so just so i can get this clear. You will not have your raiders back down.
[4:49:36 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> I'm saying as far as I can see the raid is a valid one because no protection exists. I can't just take everyone's word for it when they say "They're protected, trust me." As a compromise I can prevent future raids on them. Otherwise I'm taking away the basic raiding rights our members have.[/quote]

Had he been nicer I may have just gone ahead with having our people peace out just because a couple raids isn't really worth the trouble. Since then we have actually gone ahead and sent peace offers though, and this particular situation should be handled.

We do now officially have a stance on this particularly strange scenario, so hopefully future incidents will be resolved more smoothly. You can view that here: http://cngoons.com/Board/index.php?topic=4609.0

[Delta1212]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1280091844' post='2388676']
Had he been nicer I may have just gone ahead with having our people peace out just because a couple raids isn't really worth the trouble.
[/quote]
Um... Did we read the same logs?

[Emporor]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1280090650' post='2388639']
Hahahaha....ah, man. You're hilarious.
[/quote]

Oh yes, so hilarious.. you guys are getting called out and apparetly you are so pathetic that you won't even do anything about it... yes, that is hilarious.

[quote name='Haquertal' timestamp='1280090652' post='2388641']
I could say the same thing to you, kind sir.
[/quote]

Don't try to reverse the fact that you guys are complete idiots and can't even pick on an alliance that is willing to stand up to you.. what's wrong? We are only a tenth of your size according to your fellow member.

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1280091558' post='2388671']
You're out of line, Hoo. We don't go about dictating your alliance's policies to you, so don't do the same to us. We're not obligated to end raids on unprotected AA's, so don't act like we were.
[/quote]

Oh yes, he is so out of line.. because you would never go and tell any alliance to what extent they can protect their allies (Which would be that alliances policy) now would you?? Oh, wait.. you guys already did.

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1280091558' post='2388671']
If you have issues with our policies, feel free to discuss them with us. You calling us 'complete morons' on the OWF not only makes us not care about your opinion, but it ensures that your posts will be regarded with less seriousness in the future.
[/quote]

Yeah, because who ever takes Hoo seriously, am I right?

[Joe Stupid]

[quote name='Haquertal' timestamp='1280087986' post='2388579']
Because starting huge wars is cool, right?

Also, read Sardonic's post. The moment they got this intel, the nations were asked to peace out, so I'm not seeing where you've seen that the raiders are continuing their raids.
[/quote]

Absolutely. I would have jumped at the chance.

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1280091558' post='2388671']
You're out of line, Hoo. We don't go about dictating your alliance's policies to you, so don't do the same to us. We're not obligated to end raids on unprotected AA's, so don't act like we were.[/quote]

Except it was a protected AA. And yes, you are free to refuse ... I am telling you that eventually you will refuse with the wrong guy.

[quote]You calling us 'complete morons' on the OWF not only makes us not care about your opinion, but it ensures that your posts will be regarded with less seriousness in the future.[/quote]

I'm crushed.

MA are our allies and have been for a [b]long[/b] time. I am not impressed with the way you handled this and am publicly stating so. After all, such things should be make "public knowledge" in order for you to accept them as fact anyway.

I take umbrage with GOONS acting as if this is essentially all MA's fault. I also take umbrage with you posting that the situation was resolved as soon as it was brought to your attention when we all know it was not. Don't wax diplomatic when you know damn well that you had no intention of peacing out to begin with.

[Haquertal]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1280092247' post='2388684']
I am not impressed with the way you handled this and am publicly stating so. After all, such things should be make "public knowledge" in order for you to accept them as fact anyway.
[/quote]

Yeah, because I'm sure you guys would believe every single person claiming a protectorate, am I right?

All this boils down to, is people didn't publicly declare a protectorate, so a raid happened. Then when asked for proof, could give none, so the raids continued until they ended, and then they were whitelisted.

How was this poorly handled?

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='Haquertal' timestamp='1280092577' post='2388691']
Yeah, because I'm sure you guys would believe every single person claiming a protectorate, am I right?

All this boils down to, is people didn't publicly declare a protectorate, so a raid happened. Then when asked for proof, could give none, so the raids continued until they ended, and then they were whitelisted.

How was this poorly handled?
[/quote]


If someone I know to be the leader of their alliance, especially someone we have no qualms with, comes to me and says "hey, this AA is protected" ... then yes, we would believe them. We would not offer reps (and none were asked for here either), but we'd peace out. We certainly would not say "Oh, sorry ... well, we're going to ignore your protection and finish anyway."

What sort of messed up logic is that?

"Hey guys, can you please peace out. That AA is actually protected by us ..."

"Oh yeah?!!? ... PROVE IT!"

Give me a flipping break.

Edited July 25, 2010 by Van Hoo III

[Haquertal]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1280092769' post='2388697']
If someone I know to be the leader of their alliance, especially someone we have no qualms with, comes to me and says "hey, this AA is protected" ... then yes, we would believe them. We would not offer reps (and none were asked for here either), but we'd peace out. We certainly would not say "Oh, sorry ... well, we're going to ignore your protection and finish anyway."

What sort of messed up logic is that?
[/quote]

Who cares if you know them? There was no public documentation, which is why the raid was conducted in the first place. If they had taken the proper steps, just as our raiders do, then it would've never happened.

[Alterego]

[quote name='CptGodzilla' timestamp='1280017757' post='2387810']
indefinitely.
[/quote]
That long, wow. Congrats GOONS

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='Haquertal' timestamp='1280092872' post='2388701']
Who cares if you know them? There was no public documentation, which is why the raid was conducted in the first place. If they had taken the proper steps, just as our raiders do, then it would've never happened.
[/quote]


You're right. It is all MA's fault ... shame on them!

Look, there is no rule that states you must post a merge to the public or the protection that is involved. It is up to the raider to make sure there is no protection and not up to anyone else to "prove it" ... lol

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1280093089' post='2388705']
You're right. It is all MA's fault ... shame on them!

Look, there is no rule that states you must post a merge to the public or the protection that is involved. It is up to the raider to make sure there is no protection and not up to anyone else to "prove it" ... lol
[/quote]
And our raiders made sure there was no protection, and nobody could show that they were wrong.

[Emporor]

[quote name='Haquertal' timestamp='1280092872' post='2388701']
Who cares if you know them? There was no public documentation, which is why the raid was conducted in the first place. If they had taken the proper steps, just as our raiders do, then it would've never happened.
[/quote]

Yes because your raiders took all the right steps but, if that is true then why are you guys in this mess now? It's always everyone's fault but your own.. I think it's time to take responsibility for your actions, don't you?

[Haquertal]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1280093226' post='2388708']
And our raiders made sure there was no protection, and nobody could show that they were wrong.
[/quote]

This exactly.

As I stated before, our raiders jumped through all the hoops, but those who were raided did not.

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1280093226' post='2388708']
And our raiders made sure there was no protection, and nobody could show that they were wrong.
[/quote]


The leader of the alliance protecting them telling you as much [b]is[/b] showing you that you were wrong. It really doesn't get any clearer than that.

It is as simple as that, really.

[mrwuss]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1280093089' post='2388705']
You're right. It is all MA's fault ... shame on them!

Look, there is no rule that states you must post a merge to the public or the protection that is involved. It is up to the raider to make sure there is no protection and not up to anyone else to "prove it" ... lol
[/quote]


There is no rule for anything just generally accepted policies. If you can't follow something that requires little-to-no effort on your part then you can later spend more effort trying to make up for being lazy and/or stupid.

Are you ever going to post something at least half intelligent in this thread or are you going to keep thinking you are zinging everyone with your endless wit? Just give up and move along as this never actually involved you and the "protector" is not all in the right when his minions answered the demanded peace with missiles.

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='Haquertal' timestamp='1280093289' post='2388711']
This exactly.

As I stated before, our raiders jumped through all the hoops, but those who were raided did not.
[/quote]


Those who were raided shouldn't have to jump through hoops. If you want to raid, take responsibility. Complete responsibility. You are making the decision to attack someone, it is up to you to make sure with 100% accuracy that they are not protected ... not the other way around.

[mrwuss]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1280093477' post='2388715']
Those who were raided shouldn't have to jump through hoops. If you want to raid, take responsibility. Complete responsibility. You are making the decision to attack someone, it is up to you to make sure with 100% accuracy that they are not protected ... not the other way around.
[/quote]


Yes, reading minds is the next requirement from our gov before raiding.

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='mrwuss' timestamp='1280093459' post='2388714']
There is no rule for anything just generally accepted policies. If you can't follow something that requires little-to-no effort on your part then you can later spend more effort trying to make up for being lazy and/or stupid.

Are you ever going to post something at least half intelligent in this thread or are you going to keep thinking you are zinging everyone with your endless wit? Just give up and move along as this never actually involved you and the "protector" is not all in the right when his minions answered the demanded peace with missiles.
[/quote]

I am sorry that my biting criticism offends you. I never took any of you as the sensitive type. If you're going to make such mistakes, then you should be able to face criticism for them.

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='mrwuss' timestamp='1280093592' post='2388717']
Yes, reading minds is the next requirement from our gov before raiding.
[/quote]

"Hey, these guys are protected ... can you peace out?" does not require mind reading.

[eyriq]

It sounds like GOONS raiding policy was inaccurate (failed to predict a succesfull raid ) yet again. It seems that either social changes need to happen to bring GOONS raiding policy more in line with the social environment they are trying to predict, or GOONS could reevaluate the validity of their policy.