Ardus Posted June 20, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2010 [quote name='Geoffron X' date='20 June 2010 - 10:09 AM' timestamp='1277042949' post='2343735'] You know they allied with the NPO [i]after[/i] that? [/quote] You know you were allied with the NpO when Umbrae informed Cornelius of the post? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moridin Posted June 20, 2010 Report Share Posted June 20, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Ardus' date='20 June 2010 - 07:43 AM' timestamp='1277044995' post='2343753'] You know you were allied with the NpO when Umbrae informed Cornelius of the post? [/quote] Indeed, and that wasn't even close to the only time NPO engaged in spying on Polar when the two held a treaty. I can name at least one other instance of it, in addition to Griswalds who was a spy after the Ordinance was cancelled and who the NPO tried to install as a puppet Emperor. I have some problems with how VE has handled themselves in the past, but an NPO member really has no room at all to be accusing others of disloyalty towards their allies. Edited June 20, 2010 by Moridin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haflinger Posted June 20, 2010 Report Share Posted June 20, 2010 [quote name='Ardus' date='20 June 2010 - 10:36 AM' timestamp='1277044570' post='2343749'] Implying I do not. Viridia wasn't exactly excited to be taking on the Mushroom Kingdom--they're good guys, a fact I confirmed when I joined 'em. It's fine to have fought in that war. A lot of people did. It's two-faced to declare me a villain for disassociating from Polaris when Invicta eventually did the same in closer proximity to the war. I'm fine with being a villain for it, but make sure you aren't one, too. [/quote] Let's be clear here - I'm not considering you two-faced for disassociating with Polaris, although there probably are some other posters in here who feel that way. I'm considering you two-faced for on the one hand trying to stretch the definition of spying past all bounds of credulity, and then a year later complaining when OV did something which certainly fits within your definitions. [quote name='Ardus' date='20 June 2010 - 10:36 AM' timestamp='1277044570' post='2343749'] As for Ordo Verde's shenanigans, they were strictly passive as opposed to Sponge's active refusal to [i]delete a thread[/i]. [/quote] lol You can't actively refuse to obey demands. You issued an ultimatum, he refused it. He didn't do [i]anything,[/i] in other words. That was your problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardus Posted June 20, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Haflinger' date='20 June 2010 - 11:57 AM' timestamp='1277049452' post='2343806'] Let's be clear here - I'm not considering you two-faced for disassociating with Polaris, although there probably are some other posters in here who feel that way. I'm considering you two-faced for on the one hand trying to stretch the definition of spying past all bounds of credulity, and then a year later complaining when OV did something which certainly fits within your definitions.[/quote] That's a considerably more reasonable position than I originally interpreted (same respect to Moridin). I can't argue here and now, separated by years from the event, that CZ's "sin" in allowing people through his username was particularly egregious by any standard. You can look back at the logs, but the accusation of "spying" is derived not from that, but from a series of IPs from low-activity general members who all left at shortly after CZ. We thought, at the time, and given his position of opposition to our alliance, that they may have been his multis. I'm not interested in arguing whether that's sufficient reason to suspect a spy or whether he was or wasn't or anything of the sort at this point (only one of the suspect nations still exist today, SpyCap, a delightfully ironic name). I can try to keep arguing how what Ordo Verde did is different from Chickenzilla, but honestly I wasn't there for Ordo Verde so my attempts to split the hair can be done only with the dullest of blades. [quote]lol You can't actively refuse to obey demands. You issued an ultimatum, he refused it. He didn't do [i]anything,[/i] in other words. That was your problem. [/quote] Crummy wording on my part. I meant the nature of the spying of the accused. We accused CZ of maintaining multis, an active form of espionage. They accused SethB of accepting logs, a passive form of espionage. I'd say the former is more egregious than the latter, but that's strictly opinion. Edited June 20, 2010 by Ardus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Frontier Posted June 20, 2010 Report Share Posted June 20, 2010 I have no problem with not living in this game based on pride and honour, it's a game and play how you wish. That said, pick one or the other. You can't pretend to be so !@#$@#$ self-righteous when you back-stab so many people just to protect VE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel Virginia Posted June 20, 2010 Report Share Posted June 20, 2010 [quote name='Ardus' date='20 June 2010 - 02:53 AM' timestamp='1277016785' post='2343521'] First, LoFN? I'm not going to weep for Walford. I can't even remember the conflict--I had to look it up. [/quote] [color="#0000FF"]So your justification for your actions then is "its only Walford."? Pretty weak if you ask me, considering the entire CB (if any) used for that war was complete rubbish. Just an excuse to beat down some alliance's that had done you know wrong just to satisfy Ephriam Grey's ego. Tell me, is the idea that nations who are tech raided might have some friends who may help them just that unbearable of a thought to think? Because more of less that seemed to be what VE and GOD were saying throughout the entire affair.[/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffron X Posted June 20, 2010 Report Share Posted June 20, 2010 [quote name='Ardus' date='20 June 2010 - 10:43 AM' timestamp='1277044995' post='2343753'] You know you were allied with the NpO when Umbrae informed Cornelius of the post? [/quote] Oooh, excellent deflection! That totally means that allying with us and planning to kill us was just fine and dandy! Because we let you know that Polar was spying on you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardus Posted June 20, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2010 [quote name='New Frontier' date='20 June 2010 - 04:47 PM' timestamp='1277066839' post='2344063'] I have no problem with not living in this game based on pride and honour, it's a game and play how you wish. That said, pick one or the other. You can't pretend to be so !@#$@#$ self-righteous when you back-stab so many people just to protect VE. [/quote] Can and will. Idealistic ends with pragmatic means. So you'll hate me. Because I can spin it. Because I'm not the hero. I'm the loudmouthed guardian. A watchful wheeler n' dealer. A Viridian Hammer. [quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='20 June 2010 - 04:55 PM' timestamp='1277067318' post='2344080'] [color="#0000FF"]So your justification for your actions then is "its only Walford."? Pretty weak if you ask me, considering the entire CB (if any) used for that war was complete rubbish. Just an excuse to beat down some alliance's that had done you know wrong just to satisfy Ephriam Grey's ego. Tell me, is the idea that nations who are tech raided might have some friends who may help them just that unbearable of a thought to think? Because more of less that seemed to be what VE and GOD were saying throughout the entire affair.[/color] [/quote] The thought is perfectly bearable. I didn't give the reasoning intense scrutiny. Some innocent nations suffered. Some less than innocent nations suffered. Ephriam eventually hung himself with awful decisions and had his career ended by Viridia. The war was a mistake. But I'm not going to get personally weepy over something that so very many of us dropped the ball on. Notch it up as a moderately sized "whoops" and try not to step into the same trap twice... or a third time. I forget how many times I looked past EG's hijinks because I was occupied by something else. [quote name='Geoffron X' date='20 June 2010 - 05:30 PM' timestamp='1277069415' post='2344130'] Oooh, excellent deflection! That totally means that allying with us and planning to kill us was just fine and dandy! Because we let you know that Polar was spying on you! [/quote] My point is that you're criticizing me for characteristics and tactics that your alliance shares. It's like finding a guy wearing the same shirt as you and telling him he should feel bad for wearing such an ugly piece of clothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel Virginia Posted June 20, 2010 Report Share Posted June 20, 2010 [quote name='Ardus' date='20 June 2010 - 06:50 PM' timestamp='1277074225' post='2344199'] The thought is perfectly bearable. I didn't give the reasoning intense scrutiny. Some innocent nations suffered. Some less than innocent nations suffered. Ephriam eventually hung himself with awful decisions and had his career ended by Viridia. The war was a mistake. But I'm not going to get personally weepy over something that so very many of us dropped the ball on. Notch it up as a moderately sized "whoops" and try not to step into the same trap twice... or a third time. I forget how many times I looked past EG's hijinks because I was occupied by something else. [/quote] [color="#0000FF"]So your response to disbanding nine upstart alliances, who had been set up by EG's forged logs, is "my bad." I have to say, for an alliance that likes to come off as morally superior or as righteous, VE has no problem stepping all over smaller parties without even stopping to take a look at what it is doing.[/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornelius Posted June 20, 2010 Report Share Posted June 20, 2010 [quote name='New Frontier' date='20 June 2010 - 04:47 PM' timestamp='1277066839' post='2344063'] I have no problem with not living in this game based on pride and honour, it's a game and play how you wish. That said, pick one or the other. You can't pretend to be so !@#$@#$ self-righteous when you back-stab so many people just to protect VE. [/quote] Ardus himself has admitted he set the idealism aside in the face of being pragmatic. I can see how he learned that lesson, as his first brief stint as Lord was to try to futilely halt the destruction of the VE when Egore took the ultra-idealistic route of cutting us off diplomatically from the rest of the world. There were divisions in the VE over the various shades of grey involved, whether to lean toward idealism or simply staying alive. Part of the reason he picked me as his successor, I've learned since, was to swing the pendulum back toward the other end of the spectrum, while knowing enough from experience not to go too far. Events were allowed to develop over time as none of us were about to repeat a mass-cancellation. We've changed as an alliance over the years, as Viridia's various leaders have each shaped its course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardus Posted June 20, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2010 [quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='20 June 2010 - 07:07 PM' timestamp='1277075247' post='2344213'] [color="#0000FF"]So your response to disbanding nine upstart alliances, who had been set up by EG's forged logs, is "my bad." I have to say, for an alliance that likes to come off as morally superior or as righteous, VE has no problem stepping all over smaller parties without even stopping to take a look at what it is doing.[/color] [/quote] Your suggestion that I am Viridia, whole and indivisible, is both humbling and flattering. Fortunately for Viridia it isn't true. I'd say I'm sorry for not letting every mistake haunt me, but I'm not. I made a mistake with regard to Ephriam Grey. He hurt some people. I didn't. He got what he deserved in the end. I paid my dues in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel Virginia Posted June 20, 2010 Report Share Posted June 20, 2010 [quote name='Ardus' date='20 June 2010 - 07:30 PM' timestamp='1277076641' post='2344246'] Your suggestion that I am Viridia, whole and indivisible, is both humbling and flattering. Fortunately for Viridia it isn't true. I'd say I'm sorry for not letting every mistake haunt me, but I'm not. I made a mistake with regard to Ephriam Grey. He hurt some people. I didn't. He got what he deserved in the end. I paid my dues in advance. [/quote] [color="#0000FF"]Oh, but you did hurt some people. You supported him blindly, and that led to a lot of alliances paying a price that never should have been. I'll be sure to see that one of these days you answer for all that you did.[/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardus Posted June 20, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='20 June 2010 - 07:41 PM' timestamp='1277077258' post='2344255'] [color="#0000FF"]Oh, but you did hurt some people. You supported him blindly, and that led to a lot of alliances paying a price that never should have been. I'll be sure to see that one of these days you answer for all that you did.[/color] [/quote] There is literally nothing you can do to me that hasn't already been done. Besides, your beloved NPO also stood by and let the wars occur with no punishment for EG. Will you be equitable in the prosecution of your "justice"? Edited June 20, 2010 by Ardus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel Virginia Posted June 21, 2010 Report Share Posted June 21, 2010 [quote name='Ardus' date='20 June 2010 - 07:47 PM' timestamp='1277077643' post='2344261'] There is literally nothing you can do to me that hasn't already been done. Besides, your beloved NPO also stood by and let the wars occur with no punishment for EG. Will you be equitable in the prosecution of your "justice"? [/quote] [color="#0000FF"]I have not been affiliated with the NPO for nearly two years now, and unlike you I have cut all ties with my past alliance. You still seem quite close to the VE. Now, as for the NPO, they already paid their dues. Karma happened. VE has yet to answer for its wrongs, and neither for you. As for what I can or cannot do, that is irrelevant at the moment. I am a very patient man, and I have a very long memory.[/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallen Fool Posted June 21, 2010 Report Share Posted June 21, 2010 For what it's worth, this gave me closure. Thank you for that. [quote name='D34th' date='20 June 2010 - 05:34 AM' timestamp='1277026471' post='2343570']So you admit that you, and consequently VE were under your leadership were just cowards, opportunists and traitors. After saying that you still want NpO to be blamed for your treason before NoCB war? [/quote]While there are some aspects of Ardus's reign which really grate my nerves (specifically how Polar as a whole was disowned and smeared by Ardus's VE), I would never claim that VE wasn't justified, at some level, in their actions towards us. Regardless, the past is the past. Time to bury our half of the hatchet and move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dajobo Posted June 21, 2010 Report Share Posted June 21, 2010 [quote name='FallenFool' date='21 June 2010 - 11:11 AM' timestamp='1277079051' post='2344297'] Regardless, the past is the past. Time to bury our half of the hatchet and move on. [/quote] This represents my feelings on the matter as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zessa Posted June 21, 2010 Report Share Posted June 21, 2010 While I probably shouldn't be talking given where I was when the events Ardus refers to transpired, I am a Polar and will state my position as Dajobo and Fallen have. To live in the past is to never look to the future, let us move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcturus Jefferson Posted June 21, 2010 Report Share Posted June 21, 2010 [quote name='Geoffron X' date='20 June 2010 - 10:09 AM' timestamp='1277042949' post='2343735'] You know they allied with the NPO [i]after[/i] that? [/quote] According to Ardus, it was at least partially to repay the favor of the Viridicide. I guess your opinion of that action will rest on how far you think it is acceptable to go to get revenge. I have basically zero problem with betraying someone who had betrayed you previously, but even if you don't accept that as right, it is the height of hypocrisy for you to denounce them as traitors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardus Posted June 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2010 [quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='20 June 2010 - 08:06 PM' timestamp='1277078783' post='2344290'] [color="#0000FF"]I have not been affiliated with the NPO for nearly two years now, and unlike you I have cut all ties with my past alliance. You still seem quite close to the VE. Now, as for the NPO, they already paid their dues. Karma happened. VE has yet to answer for its wrongs, and neither for you. As for what I can or cannot do, that is irrelevant at the moment. I am a very patient man, and I have a very long memory.[/color] [/quote] You're a member of the New Sith Order and have a vested interest in the well-being of Pacifica by means of your treaty to them. Or do you perceive it as I perceived mine? VE pre-paid, slaughtered for trying to do the right thing, for trying to be just and fair, I at the helm in the age of annihilation. Through Karma came vengeance, through vengeance came justice, through justice Viridia broke free, and through their freedom I am redeemed. Take all the time in the world, Virginia. I'm happy to wait. [img]http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u51/silverfoxrocker/smughist.png[/img] The capacity of Polars to put up with my nonsense never ceases to leave me in awe. I thought for sure I'd burnt the ashes of that bridge in Bi-Polar. Probably owe ya somethin'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel Virginia Posted June 21, 2010 Report Share Posted June 21, 2010 [quote name='Ardus' date='20 June 2010 - 09:30 PM' timestamp='1277083812' post='2344394'] You're a member of the New Sith Order and have a vested interest in the well-being of Pacifica by means of your treaty to them. Or do you perceive it as I perceived mine? VE pre-paid, slaughtered for trying to do the right thing, for trying to be just and fair, I at the helm in the age of annihilation. Through Karma came vengeance, through vengeance came justice, through justice Viridia broke free, and through their freedom I am redeemed. Take all the time in the world, Virginia. I'm happy to wait. [img]http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u51/silverfoxrocker/smughist.png[/img] The capacity of Polars to put up with my nonsense never ceases to leave me in awe. I thought for sure I'd burnt the ashes of that bridge in Bi-Polar. Probably owe ya somethin'. [/quote] [color="#0000FF"]Betraying NPO does not redeem you of the crimes you committed back then. Many of those you were not only accomplice in. You were in fact an initiator, and NPO only facilitated your own abuses of the power. There was no justice or fairness in your destruction of the LoFN. If you think that being rolled once, in your original incarnation, justifies your abuses of power and destructive acts since your reformation then I only have to say that you are severely deluded.[/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawk11 Posted June 21, 2010 Report Share Posted June 21, 2010 [quote name='Ardus' date='20 June 2010 - 09:30 PM' timestamp='1277083812' post='2344394'] VE pre-paid, slaughtered for trying to do the right thing, for trying to be just and fair, I at the helm in the age of annihilation. Through Karma came vengeance, through vengeance came justice, through justice Viridia broke free, and through their freedom I am redeemed.[/quote] Oh hey, glad to know I wasted all that time working to repair our relations. Good thing I kept my receipt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardus Posted June 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2010 [quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='20 June 2010 - 10:04 PM' timestamp='1277085849' post='2344446'] [color="#0000FF"]Betraying NPO does not redeem you of the crimes you committed back then. Many of those you were not only accomplice in. You were in fact an initiator, and NPO only facilitated your own abuses of the power. There was no justice or fairness in your destruction of the LoFN. If you think that being rolled once, in your original incarnation, justifies your abuses of power and destructive acts since your reformation then I only have to say that you are severely deluded.[/color] [/quote] Now I initiated the LoFN war? Wow, my villainy surpasses even my own. A deadly recursive loop of evil that could threaten the world. You should strike now, before the spiral menace of my despicable evolution consumes the known universe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardus Posted June 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2010 [quote name='hawk_11' date='20 June 2010 - 10:35 PM' timestamp='1277087705' post='2344482'] Oh hey, glad to know I wasted all that time working to repair our relations. Good thing I kept my receipt. [/quote] You're a nice guy, but sometimes that's just not enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawk11 Posted June 21, 2010 Report Share Posted June 21, 2010 [quote name='Ardus' date='20 June 2010 - 10:43 PM' timestamp='1277088172' post='2344502'] You're a nice guy, but sometimes that's just not enough. [/quote] You're right, we might have actually buried the hatchet if you weren't in the picture, from the looks of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardus Posted June 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2010 [quote name='hawk_11' date='20 June 2010 - 10:44 PM' timestamp='1277088248' post='2344504'] You're right, we might have actually buried the hatchet if you weren't in the picture, from the looks of it. [/quote] Not likely. Canceling on NpO was a week's worth of internal peacekeeping. Maintaining NPO was a perpetual job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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