Concerning the War of Aggression against C&G

[Ejayrazz]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='27 February 2010 - 04:38 PM' timestamp='1267306917' post='2206945']
lawlz. great, more thinking after this argument.... my brain is fried. give me a couple of days to recover.
[/quote]
Think real hard.

I would comment further, but we essentially are agreeing on the same terms, or if not, we are arguing different points and agreeing with others.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Chickenzilla' date='28 February 2010 - 03:02 PM' timestamp='1267391134' post='2208780']
Nonsense. We don't want to destroy FEAR.
[/quote]

FEAR is lumped in with TOP/IRON and the others (that whole TIFDTTwhatever acronym that Archon used in the OP). so it does not seem that way to me.


[quote name='Ejayrazz' date='28 February 2010 - 03:30 PM' timestamp='1267392840' post='2208820']
Think real hard.

I would comment further, but we essentially are agreeing on the same terms, or if not, we are arguing different points and agreeing with others.
[/quote]

much love mate. i will think on that throughout the war and get back to you on it.

Edited February 28, 2010 by Dochartaigh

[Some-Guy]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='28 February 2010 - 08:45 PM' timestamp='1267390146' post='2208764']
They hated you guys for opposing heavy terms for Hegemony alliances during the Karma War.
[/quote]

It's a brave new world baby!

PS: TOP's MOFA supported harsh reps for NPO

Edited February 28, 2010 by Some-Guy

[Rafael Nadal]

[quote name='Some-Guy' date='28 February 2010 - 02:19 PM' timestamp='1267395779' post='2208876']
It's a brave new world baby!

PS: TOP's MOFA supported harsh reps for NPO
[/quote]
Yes, I remember that post.

[flak attack]

[quote name='Some-Guy' date='28 February 2010 - 05:19 PM' timestamp='1267395779' post='2208876']
It's a brave new world baby!

PS: TOP's MOFA supported harsh reps for NPO
[/quote]
Exactly why they should have voted for you again.

[Rocky Horror]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='28 February 2010 - 01:01 PM' timestamp='1267383925' post='2208618']
so why is it a special case? because it is the NPO? that is not really a good reason. but remember NPO was not the only ones to have terms.
[/quote]It was a war of retribution for their sins. The whole CHANGE WE CAN BELIEVE IN bandwagon was secondary to the utter destruction of their order. In my mind, they were to be made an example of. Not with MK as the sole moral arbiter, but to show that anyone can be defeated and that we should behave as if this were the case.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Rocky Horror' date='28 February 2010 - 05:09 PM' timestamp='1267398760' post='2208971']
It was a war of retribution for their sins. The whole CHANGE WE CAN BELIEVE IN bandwagon was secondary to the [b]utter destruction of their order[/b]. In my mind, they were to be made an example of. Not with MK as the sole moral arbiter, but to show that anyone can be defeated and that we should behave as if this were the case.
[/quote]

heh. i don't agree with the destruction of any alliance no matter who it is.

[neneko]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='28 February 2010 - 07:19 PM' timestamp='1267381382' post='2208555']
really? you gonna go with that when if you read the first 2/3rds of this thread and you have MK and its allies all over talking about destroying TOP/IRON/TORN/DAWN/FEAR/TSO to ensure that they are basically never a threat again.
[/quote]
The massive hegemonic reps that FEAR got pretty much proves you're right there.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='neneko' date='28 February 2010 - 06:38 PM' timestamp='1267404147' post='2209104']
The massive hegemonic reps that FEAR got pretty much proves you're right there.
[/quote]

wait FEAR got peace? how did i miss that?

[Chalaskan]

When Kharma started, those fighting for the truths said they would not want reps from a war again. Then you have Grem against the codex they started, and C&G stating they would never be like NPO/Heg saying they would never do that...yet they try to deal reps that would be similar to those they opposed at the beginning of this war.

Here are the facts...
1. TOP and IRON entered this war on a moralistic front.
2. Opposition took advantage of a bad move due to...
3. NpO who started the moralistic crusade reversed gears seeing they could lose, and left their closest allies high and dry.
4. Grem and company require reps even though they stated by codex pre kharma they would never do this.

Gimme a break.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Chalaskan

[neneko]

[quote name='Chalaskan' date='01 March 2010 - 09:26 AM' timestamp='1267432188' post='2209752']
When Kharma started, those fighting for the truths said they would not want reps from a war again. Then you have Grem against the codex they started, and C&G stating they would never be like NPO/Heg saying they would never do that...yet they try to deal reps that would be similar to those they opposed at the beginning of this war.

Here are the facts...
1. TOP and IRON entered this war on a moralistic front.
2. Opposition took advantage of a bad move due to...
3. NpO who started the moralistic crusade reversed gears seeing they could lose, and left their closest allies high and dry.
4. Grem and company require reps even though they stated by codex pre kharma they would never do this.

Gimme a break.
[/quote]
I would like to see a statement from even a single MK member that we would never take reps. If you attack us without provocation you'll be paying for it.

As for your 'facts' most of them are wrong. You guys used a global conflict as a chance to take out CnG. Obviously you failed big time and that's why we hear you crying now. At the time of the first declarations we were told we'd get what was coming for us and that we'd be destroyed. Now that things didn't go your way it was all about supporting polar. Your attempts to weasel out of what you did is pathetic.

[Affluenza]

I swear nothing new has been said or done since this announcement was made...a month on and still the same faces keeping up the lousy arguing...

[quote name='Chalaskan' date='01 March 2010 - 08:26 AM' timestamp='1267432188' post='2209752']
When Kharma started, those fighting for the truths said they would not want reps from a war again. Then you have Grem against the codex they started, and C&G stating they would never be like NPO/Heg saying they would never do that...yet they try to deal reps that would be similar to those they opposed at the beginning of this war.
[/quote]

Wait has any allianced been disbanded? Has anyone been P-ZI'd? Or E-ZI?

C&G was aggressively attacked and it is well within our right to make sure people pay.

Don't blame other alliances and blocs for something TOP and others probably should have engaged TOP Speed!

Edited March 1, 2010 by Affluenza

[Bob Janova]

[quote]Now that things didn't go your way it was all about supporting polar.[/quote]
Don't make me go get those three quotes from the DoW saying it was about the Polar coalition right at the start again.

[Tick1]

[quote name='Chalaskan' date='01 March 2010 - 08:26 AM' timestamp='1267432188' post='2209752']
When Kharma started, those fighting for the truths said they would not want reps from a war again. Then you have Grem against the codex they started, and C&G stating they would never be like NPO/Heg saying they would never do that...yet they try to deal reps that would be similar to those they opposed at the beginning of this war.

Here are the facts...
1. TOP and IRON entered this war on a moralistic front.
2. Opposition took advantage of a bad move due to...
3. NpO who started the moralistic crusade reversed gears seeing they could lose, and left their closest allies high and dry.
4. Grem and company require reps even though they stated by codex pre kharma they would never do this.

Gimme a break.
[/quote]

Would you quit making me look good! I thought I went out on a limb, but compared to this you must have fallen out of the tree. If you really believe any of those statements, than I'll just assume it's because your an applicant and not a member.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Tick1

[Thorgrum]

[quote name='Tick1' date='01 March 2010 - 01:24 PM' timestamp='1267450070' post='2209864']
If you really believe any of those statements, than I'll just assume it's because your an applicant and not a member.
[/quote]

Having read most of the thread and others I dont think there is any question he does infact believe those statements.

[quote]2. Opposition took advantage of a bad move due to...[/quote]

I liked this one the best, and its been the most entertaining part of the conversation thus far. "you took advantage of the fact we attacked you preemptively in support of Polar" It dosent get old for me, I could read it 100 more times. I especially like it when Janova delivers it, but at this point it dosent matter anyone will do.

[Tick1]

[quote name='Thorgrum' date='01 March 2010 - 01:27 PM' timestamp='1267450266' post='2209866']
Having read most of the thread and others I dont think there is any question he does infact believe those statements.



I liked this one the best, and its been the most entertaining part of the conversation thus far. "you took advantage of the fact we attacked you preemptively in support of Polar" It dosent get old for me, I could read it 100 more times. I especially like it when Janova delivers it, but at this point it dosent matter anyone will do.
[/quote]

Well in all honesty when you put it in Bob's mouth I do find it quite funny. (OOC: I'm in the library and trying not to laugh /OOC) Anyhow, so either TOP fails to enlighten their own members about their true motives or could careless about their members. Letting them make a poor public display like this is pretty bad considering TOP is one of the so called "Top Alliances." Someone gag your member before he ruins your reputation.

[Thorgrum]

[quote name='Tick1' date='01 March 2010 - 01:31 PM' timestamp='1267450526' post='2209872']
Well in all honesty when you put it in Bob's mouth I do find it quite funny. (OOC: I'm in the library and trying not to laugh /OOC) Anyhow, so either TOP fails to enlighten their own members about their true motives or could careless about their members. Letting them make a poor public display like this is pretty bad considering TOP is one of the so called "Top Alliances." Someone gag your member before he ruins your reputation.
[/quote]

Well on this point we disagree, TOP lets there people speak freely something I respect. As to thier "true" motives there is one thing I have learned in my time here there is nothing pure anymore. Most actions are derived from a compliation of factors. However its just plain silly to proclaim hitting CnG to destroy them was not a factor or one of the primary ones. The portrayl of the motives now a month in as some deviant plan of those attacked to pull them in and not let them out is a consistant mindset from TOP. Most everything that has occurred since Karma has been woven into some trap, or plot to finally get them.

The sad part for me is they were warned loudly by several people (Janova was one of them) that they were helping to create this reality and bam look what happened. Essentially this guys Items is a rationalization of how TOP executed a plot they believed others were creating, all by themselves. Its shame, because I like a lot of TOP people and hope they find away out of this that brings them out stronger, wiser and less paranoid.

[Bob Janova]

[quote]"you took advantage of the fact we attacked you preemptively in support of Polar" It dosent get old for me, I could read it 100 more times. I especially like it when Janova delivers it[/quote]
Well, it's true, not really even disputed by several SG folks who I've had interesting chats with over the last month. Chalaskan obviously has his bias, like all of us, but his post is broadly correct. TOP and IRON [i]did[/i] enter to assist Polar in winning the moralistic war they started (stated three times in their DoW), although the chance to defeat C&G played a role in their choice of target. C&G did take advantage of that bad decision in order to roll TOP for a month (so far) and offer harsh terms instead of the peace arranged on every other front, and took their opportunity to twist the war into a stomping of TOP/IRON just as cynically as TOP took theirs to attack C&G. NpO did bail out on them and the Polar coalition in general, although I'm not sure who 'NpO's clsest allies' refers to. And Grämlins are demanding reps for a war they chose to enter, in direct violation of their Codex.

[neneko]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='01 March 2010 - 02:13 PM' timestamp='1267449420' post='2209857']
Don't make me go get those three quotes from the DoW saying it was about the Polar coalition right at the start again.
[/quote]
Well seeing that you lost that argument I'd say that wouldn't be a very good idea, now would it? We both agreed there were two reasons they attacked cng and neither of those makes the other go away. If you think you have better luck this time go for it though, I could use some entertainment.


edit: since I'm fairly sure what your reply will be I'm going to respond to that right away to save us some time.

You forgot to quote this part of the DoW
[quote]
For our part, however, much our reason to enter this war lies in our desire to defeat those who have shown time and time again, in public and in private, that doing harm to us is high on their agenda
[/quote]

and how many times either reason is stated is irrelevant since they're both there.

Edited March 1, 2010 by neneko

[Thorgrum]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='01 March 2010 - 02:19 PM' timestamp='1267453353' post='2209905']
Well, it's true, not really even disputed by several SG folks who I've had interesting chats with over the last month. Chalaskan obviously has his bias, like all of us, but his post is broadly correct. TOP and IRON [i]did[/i] enter to assist Polar in winning the moralistic war they started (stated three times in their DoW), although the chance to defeat C&G played a role in their choice of target. C&G did take advantage of that bad decision in order to roll TOP for a month (so far) and offer harsh terms instead of the peace arranged on every other front, and took their opportunity to twist the war into a stomping of TOP/IRON just as cynically as TOP took theirs to attack C&G. NpO did bail out on them and the Polar coalition in general, although I'm not sure who 'NpO's clsest allies' refers to.[/quote]

You are correct they did enter the war to help Polar, you will get no argument from me, it is however not the only reason. Given that TOP has been screaming for months that CnG was out to get them (yes even after you left citadel) to suggest hitting CnG wasnt a primary factor, on the same level or of greater importance then the Polar reason, skips over a great deal. The important concept here is valuation, your valuation of thier rational is biased, to the point where its nonsensical. You claim CnG is rolling them, honestly it looks like Iron and Top are fighting well and doing monumental damage the likes of which our planet has never seen. I think you said somewhere else they were ready to continue fighting indefinately. Based on thier choice to declare in the first place, who is getting rolled is highly subjective.


[quote]And Grämlins are demanding reps for a war they chose to enter, in direct violation of their Codex.
[/quote]

I dont know what the Gramlins gov is doing, Im a zealot I was given Templar and asked to be demoted so I dont have access to some of the data. I can tell you as I did in my application thread to gramlins that the codex is perhaps the biggest piece of !@#$ document we have ever seen on the planet. If gov is in violation of it, it wouldnt surprise me one bit.

[SynthFG]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='01 March 2010 - 02:19 PM' timestamp='1267453353' post='2209905']
Well, it's true, not really even disputed by several SG folks who I've had interesting chats with over the last month. Chalaskan obviously has his bias, like all of us, but his post is broadly correct. TOP and IRON [i]did[/i] enter to assist Polar in winning the moralistic war they started (stated three times in their DoW), although the chance to defeat C&G played a role in their choice of target. C&G did take advantage of that bad decision in order to roll TOP for a month (so far) and offer harsh terms instead of the peace arranged on every other front, and took their opportunity to twist the war into a stomping of TOP/IRON just as cynically as TOP took theirs to attack C&G. NpO did bail out on them and the Polar coalition in general, although I'm not sure who 'NpO's clsest allies' refers to. And Grämlins are demanding reps for a war they chose to enter, in direct violation of their Codex.
[/quote]
Bob
The interpretation of the Codex is for Gre gov you know that, and 2 separate issues the war with IRON where we attacked in defence of MK and the War with DAWN in which we were attacked, what we are asking for in the first round of negotiations on peace is up to us.

As for TOP, they through there gov have been looking for an excuse to hit CnG in general and MK in particular for the past few months, every little crisis they have pressured, cajouled and frankly bullied those they had ties to in an effort to get the ball rolling, the last time they tried it it cost them their ties to FOK and it tore Cit apart. They were warned repeatedly that they were driving on a course to self distruction yet they plunged in anyway. Had TOP won this fight I've no doubt that they wouldn't be offering white peace, and I don't see that they or IRON as the key instigators of this most destructive of wars should get away scott free or even lightly

[jstep]

[quote name='SynthFG' date='01 March 2010 - 10:34 AM' timestamp='1267457882' post='2209943']
Bob
The interpretation of the Codex is for Gre gov you know that, and 2 separate issues the war with IRON where we attacked in defence of MK and the War with DAWN in which we were attacked, what we are asking for in the first round of negotiations on peace is up to us.

As for TOP, they through there gov have been looking for an excuse to hit CnG in general and MK in particular for the past few months, every little crisis they have pressured, cajouled and frankly bullied those they had ties to in an effort to get the ball rolling, the last time they tried it it cost them their ties to FOK and it tore Cit apart. They were warned repeatedly that they were driving on a course to self distruction yet they plunged in anyway. Had TOP won this fight I've no doubt that they wouldn't be offering white peace, and I don't see that they or IRON as the key instigators of this most destructive of wars should get away scott free or even lightly
[/quote]

I believe certain actions in the Karma war ended effectively ended Cit

Edited March 1, 2010 by jstep

[Rocky Horror]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='28 February 2010 - 06:31 PM' timestamp='1267403676' post='2209091']
heh. i don't agree with the destruction of any alliance no matter who it is.
[/quote]Well I guess we can agree to disagree here. I'm with you most of the way, but you reap what you sow.


[quote name='Chalaskan' date='01 March 2010 - 02:26 AM' timestamp='1267432188' post='2209752']
[b]When Kharma started, those fighting for the truths said they would not want reps from a war again.[/b] Then you have Grem against the codex they started, and C&G stating they would never be like NPO/Heg saying they would never do that...yet they try to deal reps that would be similar to those they opposed at the beginning of this war.

Here are the facts...
1. TOP and IRON entered this war on a moralistic front.
2. Opposition took advantage of a bad move due to...
3. NpO who started the moralistic crusade reversed gears seeing they could lose, and left their closest allies high and dry.
4. Grem and company require reps even though they stated by codex pre kharma they would never do this.

Gimme a break.
[/quote]Get out.

[Steve Buscemi]

[quote name='jstep' date='01 March 2010 - 10:16 AM' timestamp='1267460370' post='2209962']
I believe certain actions of TOP in the Karma war ended effectively ended Cit
[/quote]
Fixed it for you.

[Chalaskan]

[quote name='SynthFG' date='01 March 2010 - 06:34 AM' timestamp='1267457882' post='2209943']
Bob
The interpretation of the Codex is for Gre gov you know that, and 2 separate issues the war with IRON where we attacked in defence of MK and the War with DAWN in which we were attacked, what we are asking for in the first round of negotiations on peace is up to us.

As for TOP, they through there gov have been looking for an excuse to hit CnG in general and MK in particular for the past few months, every little crisis they have pressured, cajouled and frankly bullied those they had ties to in an effort to get the ball rolling, the last time they tried it it cost them their ties to FOK and it tore Cit apart. They were warned repeatedly that they were driving on a course to self distruction yet they plunged in anyway. Had TOP won this fight I've no doubt that they wouldn't be offering white peace, and I don't see that they or IRON as the key instigators of this most destructive of wars should get away scott free or even lightly
[/quote]

See, I remember some time ago when Grem were stating they wanted a more moralist Bob, and TOP agreed. Only now, you have no clue what TOP membership is about. I guarantee you if we were winning, we would offer white peace.

Secondly, we were not looking to hit C&G, yet were standing on a moralist front, as you had started to claim with your codex and were hailed by most the planet for. You have fallen far from that.

As to losing FOK, and others in Cit, I think you are way off the mark. Regardless, we would have not done anything in this war to hurt you, and would have stood to get you white peace, rather then require reps from your allies.

What cost us our ties to FOK or any other ally is up for FOK/said ally to tell, not yourself.

There are still many in FOK and TOP that care a great deal about each other.

Steve, really, your nation name...it fits.

As to white peace, maybe I am mistaken in saying TOP was the only alliance that came to this conclusion. We would never take reps again. Says something about the involved parties regardless. (maybe I am too lazy to go back and bring up posts as well. )

As to those stating we are trying to weasel out of anything is laughable. (Considering the source has hated TOP and left his previous allegiance to continue this hate makes the statement quite biased.) Cause we are still here, and you can bring all your allies, as you have. But calling 22 alliances to hit us, well, who really is the pathetic one?

TOP didn't enter this war for any other reason but to back a moralist front. It calculated the best strategy and then was stabbed in the back. Then bandwagons took over rather then desires to make this world change, as had been what most in the world said they wanted.

I have been a member of TOP for over 2 years, went to NpO to fight a moralist front and came back when TOP was betrayed by NpO. I am a member now and am too lazy to change my bio here to state otherwise...but nice try.

Spin all the above as you like, those that know me, know I am nothing but honest and frank.

Edited March 2, 2010 by Chalaskan