So, I heard you think you've got something important to say

[Dochartaigh]

That's actually not what I said at all (italics showing what I'm disagreeing with). In this specific instance I'm nudging the proverbial cart in order to get others to maybe take notice (which, since I took the time to wax verbose on the subject, qualifies as doing something). In general I've made a point to attempt to bring up the discourse, offer thought and generally steer both discussion and procedure away from status quo in both public and private.

I'm not making some call for a massive set of coups, nuclear rogue attacks or whatever.I'm suggesting that if people really are sick of the way things are around here they should actually alter their own behavior rather than whining about the state of things but never changing. You can't fight the system while supporting it at the same time yet people seem to think that you can. That's the apple cart I'm attempting to upset here.

As to how much I care, since I took the time to toss this together I obviously do care about spreading my thoughts around and maybe sparking some neurons for someone else. What I don't care about it is the implied sneering from people like good old Bob Janova up top your your little "interesting" quip which comes across like a poor attempt to talk down to me. My self-esteem and ego are intact and don't require feeding at this time, thank you.

i actually did state you did something by posting this thread. but the whole gist of the thread was discussing others affecting a change. while i do agree that many of those whining about how this game should change, need to either shut it or do something bout it, fact is, you are very similar as they are. they posted a thread in which they wanted others to change and do something. you posted a thread in which you want others to change and do something. though yours albeit is at least partially conducted towards the forums and posting intelligently, which is an admirable goal but will most likely affect only a few.

now, my interesting quip is not an attempt to talk down to you at all, it was an attempt at pointing out the hypocrisy that resides within your post. cuz fact is, you are one of those whiners that just posted about how you want others to affect a change. there was nothing in there about what you are gonna do to also affect a change, besides posting a thread asking others to change.

"I get the impression that most of the time these efforts are actually just some sort of glory hounding and an attempt to get your name out there."

see, this whole thread seems to seek those same goals. effectively, anyone who posts a thread or hell who posts a reply in a thread, is attention seeking. but you seem to think you are somehow different and/or better than others when you do it...

now, you can state what you wish, but this is true. it is all over your OP. you want others to change and yes, you are nudging but that is minimal effort at best. after that, you aren't doing anything beyond posting this thread and holding an intelligent conversation which i have done with others and never felt the need to post a thread about it.

so as you asked someone else in this thread, beyond this thread, what are YOU going to do to affect the change that you call for?

[King Xander the Only]

I tend to agree with OP. The OWF is full of some lousy posting. Perhaps a revival of Shark Week would fix that.

[Dochartaigh]

I tend to agree with OP. The OWF is full of some lousy posting. Perhaps a revival of Shark Week would fix that.

i say we reverse and have Shark Week only applicable to GOONS and \m/ though.

[Alterego]

Ah, so because I've pointed out a consistent trend of people disliking the lack of intelligent discourse within the 'verse I should go and sit in a university department instead of attempting to effect change? You've just summed up about everything wrong with the current state of things. Thank you for providing an outstanding example.

Also, the word "stew" is incorrect. There's another four-letter one out there which is more appropriate. Of course, you could make a stew with it but I don't think people would be eager to eat it.

Thank you.

You missed my point you are being critical of people who can be between 12 & 80 years old and probably speak English as a 2nd language who are playing a game and you expect political debate akin to Parliament or the house of lords. You really need to be aware of your surroundings, I wouldn't give out to a group of university professors about their poor football skills if they were playing ball as a hobby.

Look up stew mr english professor.

Edited January 18, 2010 by Alterego

[AirMe]

the whole point of the OWF is so the loud 10% of CN can argue and scream to their hearts content (read:MK/Athens) and non gov members who want to stroke their egos.

if you want to change the OWF, gl, but i doubt it's possible

How dare people participate in the age old process of debate and politics. HOW. DARE. THEY.

[Augustus Autumn]

so as you asked someone else in this thread, beyond this thread, what are YOU going to do to affect the change that you call for?

To put it simply, moving while setting an example. I have a problem with the discourse within these forums so I am opening avenues where the issues can be aired out such as this discussion (there are more to come, don't worry). I have a problem with the content being added to conversations (wubbing and whatnot) so I seek to instead add something constructive beyond a five-word sequence. As for grander gestures, I'd actually go so far as to form some sort of community but I don't think the 'verse is ready for that yet. Maybe I'm wrong. We'll see how great the demand is.

You missed my point you are being critical of people who can be between 12 & 80 years old and probably speak English as a 2nd language who are playing a game and you expect political debate akin to Parliament or the house of lords. You really need to be aware of your surroundings, I wouldn't give out to a group of university professors about their poor football skills if they were playing ball as a hobby.

Look up stew mr english professor.

No, I'm being critical of people like you who contribute nothing to discussions except attacks on the OP and can never make it through without some attempt at name-calling directed toward one or more persons. And yes, I expect better of people because I have standards and see potential in them.

Edited January 18, 2010 by Tokugawa Mitsukuni

[Kzoppistan]

I tend to agree with OP. The OWF is full of some lousy posting. Perhaps a revival of Shark Week would fix that.

That is the regurgitation of another tired old concept, and thus only perpetuating the cycle of boredom.

Instead what you should do, is get together a list of alliances that are larger than you, but who you could actually probably beat through superior skill and because of their overinflated reputation, then throw a dart at the board for who is the lucky contestant, and proceed to fold them like a house of cards.

Now that would be entertainment.

Edited January 18, 2010 by Kzoppistan

[Jebbie]

yo there were too many words n that so i skipped bits but ya overall i agree with you good work my man keep it up

[Augustus Autumn]

yo there were too many words n that so i skipped bits but ya overall i agree with you good work my man keep it up

Alright, you got a chuckle out of me.

[Alterego]

No, I'm being critical of people like you who contribute nothing to discussions except attacks on the OP and can never make it through without some attempt at name-calling directed toward one or more persons. And yes, I expect better of people because I have standards and see potential in them.

Attacks on the op are a contribution.

[Augustus Autumn]

Attacks on the op are a contribution.

Really? Seriously? If you actually beleive that then I might legitimately pity your constituents. Here's a challenge for you: come up with a constructive counterpoint. If you come through you're clearly more than the font of negativity and insecurity you're coming across as now.

[King Xander the Only]

i say we reverse and have Shark Week only applicable to GOONS and \m/ though.

Where would be without your legendary vision?

Instead what you should do, is get together a list of alliances that are larger than you, but who you could actually probably beat through superior skill and because of their overinflated reputation, then throw a dart at the board for who is the lucky contestant, and proceed to fold them like a house of cards.

Now that would be entertainment.

If you will assist me, I will. I get the feeling you probably know them better than I do.

[Alterego]

Really? Seriously? If you actually beleive that then I might legitimately pity your constituents. Here's a challenge for you: come up with a constructive counterpoint. If you come through you're clearly more than the font of negativity and insecurity you're coming across as now.

Insulting people more eloquently is still insulting people. This whole thread and your attitude to others is no different to what you are complaining about.

No, I'm being critical of people like you who contribute nothing to discussions except attacks on the OP and can never make it through without some attempt at name-calling directed toward one or more persons. And yes, I expect better of people because I have standards and see potential in them.

[Ejayrazz]

You mention the Ninjas. We have the right to express our values just like you do. If we are 'self-important', which even I will tell you we're NOT important at all, you fall exactly in the same category as us and your last point is moot.

[Dochartaigh]

To put it simply, moving while setting an example. I have a problem with the discourse within these forums so I am opening avenues where the issues can be aired out such as this discussion (there are more to come, don't worry). I have a problem with the content being added to conversations (wubbing and whatnot) so I seek to instead add something constructive beyond a five-word sequence. As for grander gestures, I'd actually go so far as to form some sort of community but I don't think the 'verse is ready for that yet. Maybe I'm wrong. We'll see how great the demand is.

now you are following your own advice. as for intelligent discourse, in all honesty, the few that already participate are basically it. sure we get some people who drop by and add some flavor (intelligent flavor) but that is few and far between. we get new people in that know how to make intelligent discourse but the vast majority will probably continue to do what they do.

[Augustus Autumn]

Insulting people more eloquently is still insulting people. This whole thread and your attitude to others is no different to what you are complaining about.

Let's be clear. My attitude toward you is poor because you've yet to do anything else other than moan and attempt to stonewall the discussion with "Go away if you don't like it" commentary. My attitude toward others is actually hopeless optimisitic since I'd like to think they're taking something away from this which you're clearly set against doing. You're not funny, you're not contributing anything approaching intelligent and you're wasting my time.

To the larger audience: If anything, take the OP as an offer as well as a pledge of comraderie. There is a lot of dissatisfaction with the current trend of things but a lot of both confusion and frustation about changing things. My intent is to spark the idea that there can be real change - the methodolgy for something akin to a massed movement would take a lot more discussion and I'm not so self-important to think that I know the answer (though I have some ideas). Come up with your problems, come find me and let's have a nice chat - I'm interested in hearing them.

[Dochartaigh]

Where would be without your legendary vision?

most likely in the same place as we would be without your legendary vision.

[Augustus Autumn]

You mention the Ninjas. We have the right to express our values just like you do. If we are 'self-important', which even I will tell you we're NOT important at all, you fall exactly in the same category as us and your last point is moot.

The last announcement from your little band about your doctrine clearly adopted an attitude of superiority over others. As for self-important, please - claiming you did something no other organization has done (come up with your doctrine) when, in truth, it's happened plenty of times before is pretty damned arrogant.

Edit: I'm referring to the classification of your doctrine as "revolutionary" when it is nothing of the sort followed by commentary made during the Gramlins cancellation.

now you are following your own advice. as for intelligent discourse, in all honesty, the few that already participate are basically it. sure we get some people who drop by and add some flavor (intelligent flavor) but that is few and far between. we get new people in that know how to make intelligent discourse but the vast majority will probably continue to do what they do.

That doesn't mean one can't hope. I suspect a big part of the problem is that new persons come to the 'verse, see the way of things within these forums and then simply follow along rather than realize there can be more to the discourse than name-calling and mindless hailing. Creating alternative examples to this nonsense is important in my opinion.

Edited January 18, 2010 by Tokugawa Mitsukuni

[Alterego]

Let's be clear. My attitude toward you is poor because you've yet to do anything else other than moan and attempt to stonewall the discussion with "Go away if you don't like it" commentary. My attitude toward others is actually hopeless optimisitic since I'd like to think they're taking something away from this which you're clearly set against doing. You're not funny, you're not contributing anything approaching intelligent and you're wasting my time.

To the larger audience: If anything, take the OP as an offer as well as a pledge of comraderie. There is a lot of dissatisfaction with the current trend of things but a lot of both confusion and frustation about changing things. My intent is to spark the idea that there can be real change - the methodolgy for something akin to a massed movement would take a lot more discussion and I'm not so self-important to think that I know the answer (though I have some ideas). Come up with your problems, come find me and let's have a nice chat - I'm interested in hearing them.

Your whole opening statement is telling 95% of people they are too stupid to be post a full sentence in your opinion. You go on to tell people they are lazy and cowards. Now please explain to me how that is "contributing anything approaching intelligent" or makes you better than me?

Let's be really honest for a moment here. Something like ninety-five percent of national rulers within the 'verse can't string together a sentence more complicated than "I you!" or "o/ (instert alliance name)" or "NO U".

2. Why is it this way?

Everyone is bored and lazy.

3. Why doesn't it change?

Cowardice, plain and simple.

[Augustus Autumn]

Your whole opening statement is telling 95% of people they are too stupid to be post a full sentence in your opinion. You go on to tell people they are lazy and cowards. Now please explain to me how that is "contributing anything approaching intelligent" or makes you better than me?

My opening statement says that, by demonstration, the vast majority of national rulers cannot make an intelligent contribution to the debate at large. Yes, I'm being non-scientific in my use of a percentage (I'm also attempting to make with the funny). Note that just because someone cannot contribute something intelligent to the debate does not make them stupid - I suspect there are a frightening number of intelligent people within these halls. They're just not stepping up, sort of like you until right now.

As for some sort of assertion that I'm better than you, there is no implicit value judgement. I find your behavior to be below the standard I hold myself to since I find your insults childish, your ability to contribute something constructive non-existent and your motivation to do anything else other than attack me lacking. Does this make you stupid? No. It just doesn't speak of respectable behavior to me. If you're fine with that, cool.

As for me speaking of what I see, tough. Yes, I think boredom, laziness and cowardice are endemic problems. Alliances always complain about inactivity. People always talk about being worried about getting raided or rolled. These are two examples. If it's not fear and cowardice, what is it?

[Alterego]

My opening statement says that, by demonstration, the vast majority of national rulers cannot make an intelligent contribution to the debate at large. Yes, I'm being non-scientific in my use of a percentage (I'm also attempting to make with the funny). Note that just because someone cannot contribute something intelligent to the debate does not make them stupid - I suspect there are a frightening number of intelligent people within these halls. They're just not stepping up, sort of like you until right now.

As for some sort of assertion that I'm better than you, there is no implicit value judgement. I find your behavior to be below the standard I hold myself to since I find your insults childish, your ability to contribute something constructive non-existent and your motivation to do anything else other than attack me lacking. Does this make you stupid? No. It just doesn't speak of respectable behavior to me. If you're fine with that, cool.

As for me speaking of what I see, tough. Yes, I think boredom, laziness and cowardice are endemic problems. Alliances always complain about inactivity. People always talk about being worried about getting raided or rolled. These are two examples. If it's not fear and cowardice, what is it?

Ok I can accept that. The one thing you are probably not factoring in is the almost extremist like passion people have on Bob. If you are trying to change the way people post you will have to do something to dampen that kind of fanaticism and it would be an understatement to say thats an uphill battle. Good luck on your quest.

[Augustus Autumn]

Ok I can accept that. The one thing you are probably not factoring in is the almost extremist like passion people have on Bob. If you are trying to change the way people post you will have to do something to dampen that kind of fanaticism and it would be an understatement to say thats an uphill battle. Good luck on your quest.

Just because the road is difficult does not mean that it should not be walked. Of course, when journeying it's always more enjoyable to do it with companions.

[Ejayrazz]

The last announcement from your little band about your doctrine clearly adopted an attitude of superiority over others. As for self-important, please - claiming you did something no other organization has done (come up with your doctrine) when, in truth, it's happened plenty of times before is pretty damned arrogant.

Edit: I'm referring to the classification of your doctrine as "revolutionary" when it is nothing of the sort followed by commentary made during the Gramlins cancellation.

I think you read too deep into that for your own good, even creating an awkward opinion. Not once did we explicitly state "This is something never before done." Yes, Eg used the word revolutionary to the cyberverse, but revolutionary doesn't mean it is 'new'.

Even using your own argument is a fallacy. One could make the argument that the majority of alliances are ruled through rankings, whereas total equality is usually looked down upon in a sense of being regarded as "something that simply can't work in an actively functioning alliance." If you have this political perspective on the general consensus, one could support change. Bringing about or supporting a political or social revolution is also 'revolutionary' in itself, but this is a mere side note rather than the contextual facts I am aiming towards you.

Eg merely used the word revolutionary in the sense of being a radical chance for The Ninjas as it is us who are the ones revolutionized by said document. Eg merely stated a revolutionary document is being presented to the 'cyber-verse', he never once said it would actually revolutionize the cyber-verse, but rather its revolutionary to us. Not once did we state we are better than anyone else, or even come remotely close to it.

This is no charter. It is not law. It is merely a guide of what The Ninja's should do. This document is bound to us, rather than us to it. It embodies our flexibility as an alliance, and as such reflects our alliance values. I present to you; The Guideline of Governance.

The Ninjas come from all walks of life. Many histories, many alliances, but all follow the same path. Membership is gained by invitation only but if brotherhood is what you seek, come talk to us. You may be surprised by what you learn and by what we already know about you.

A Ninja Sees All. Fratres in Armis.

No where does it even say we are the first to do this. Nor does it say we are better than anyone at all. Nor does it say we are important. This 'attitude of superiority' isn't adopted, but rather inferred or gathered by someone who completely over analyzed one word with no factual basis whatsoever.

Feel free to try correcting me with any factual evidence, I am open ears, but we are really nothing special. We are an alliance that considers itself a brotherhood of equal members. We merely expressed our ideas and virtues - which you expressed your 'idea' on the OWF. I guess this makes you self-important, self-indulgent, moronic, tedious, lolmoralist, etc...right?

No. Not at all. For the most part, OWF will not see too many more announcements from The Ninjas, all the foundation and embodiment ideas have been presented. So, you wont need to see us too much, but in no shape or form are we what you perceive us as, but we're all allowed to construct our own opinions.

I guess I should use your same assertions and logic and call you self-important, I mean, you feel the need to post your opinions on the OWF conduct and even politics such as this and This or even This. Or perhaps I should follow the general stupidity and say you're crying for attention? Or should I say you feel your version of 'acceptable conduct' is 'superior' to others, but defy it even yourself?

Next time you want to prove what seems to be a somewhat logical point, I wouldn't bluntly insult an alliance which really has nothing to do with anything or which has never done anything to you.

That being said, people are here craving what we all refer as THE DRAMA.

You contribute to causing drama by insulting others or using others as negative examples.

You just contributed to the ongoing problem with your post in itself.

"pf course, it's very important to insult them, trash them and generally call them names or whatever in the hope that they'll care about your opinion and go away. If they don't then things really get fun, especially if they have some collection of menials to back them up, and the shouting begins where the literary skills of the 'verse can be brought to bear (see above for examples). This, in turn, cues some faux kindness"

You condemn the insults of others, but did it yourself to my alliance for no reason. If you're going to hate us, that is okay, but at least have somewhat of a more logical reasoning in which you can defend. You brought Gremlins into the argument which really is irrelevant.

Edited January 18, 2010 by Ejayrazz

[supercoolyellow]

"This is the state of my alliance!"

I actually enjoy Tygaland's posts and wish more alliances would do these. Its cool hearing in greater detail how alliances are doing.

[Byron Orpheus]

I tend to agree with OP. The OWF is full of some lousy posting. Perhaps a revival of Shark Week would fix that.

I think that is an excellent idea.