Joint NATO/IRON/TOP Announcement

[SpoiL]

Oh thank admin, some sanity.

What was your argument on the Dark First/NSO porno issue again?

[Penkala]

Just wondering guys:

Why did Rish join NATO if it wasn't to spy?

Nobody's denying Rish's motives, people are saying they don't see what RoK has to do with one base member's decision to spy without telling others.

[Mr Havok]

Just a clarification and an apology to RnR

I used their alliance name when i clearly meant Rok

Once again apologies to RnR for my mistype

[Jesus The Viking]

You mean like all the evidence that Athens and RoK gave that TPF got any info from Athens and company?

One shouldn't stoop down to the level of others to squabble, one should keep the high ground and fight from there

[Alterego]

Oh thank admin, some sanity.

I prefer honesty to sanity.

[Jyrinx]

You really dont understand why their DoW on TPF for spying is being mentioned in a thread about a Rok spy?

I didn't say that; I said I don't understand what it has to do with the veracity of whether or not they actually spied on you. My bad if it was unclear.

You mean like all the evidence that Athens and RoK gave that TPF got any info from Athens and company?

What exactly does any of that have to do with whether or not Ragnarok gov spied?

Considering i quoted something you said and responded to it, I would think your reading comprehension would be better.

You arent seeing it because you dont want to see it.

Again are you expecting them to just come out and say yes he was a spy and we knew it? Because going by the evidence and reality the guy was a spy with two accounts while being a trium of their alliance

Because the TPF CB has literally nothing to do with whether or not Ragnarok spied or not; if the TPF/ZH situation never happened, it wouldn't affect analyzing the veracity of the statement "Did Ragnarok spy on alliance X?"

Look, there's a !@#$ ton of evidence saying that Rishnokof spied. Calmly explain to me how anything in the OP or subsequently leads from that to the conclusion that Ragnarok spied. I'm all ears.

[magicninja]

Yes, yes the hypocrite angle most of us get that is what is being played here. That's fine except for a few points of difference in the cases that I think we can agree on.

TPF gov was heavily involved in their plot. This is proven.

RoK gov has not yet been tied to Rish's actions. If they are then I would agree they are hypocrites. Until that time it's apples and oranges.

[Rafael Nadal]

You mean like all the evidence that Athens and RoK gave that TPF got any info from Athens and company?

I'm pretty sure they acknowledged no info being passed back. The problem came from TPF high gov't being in on the planning of the purpose and methods of ZH. The problem also came from TPF showing no desire to end the operation; instead, ZH ended it. (I don't even want to hear about, let alone discuss any of the OOC !@#$ behind why it ended)

[Penkala]

I prefer honesty to sanity.

As do I. He's being honest. Until you can prove Hoo was involved and approved of it... well, you have no ground to stand on to call out RoK.

[Jyrinx]

You really arent a very good mouthpiece for your alliance

... so, what does the TPF CB have to do with determining whether or not Ragnarok spied? If the TPF CB never came into existence, how would it affect analyzing the veracity of that? Please, do tell.

[Fast Eddy]

Someone provide me with solid evidence that the government of Ragnarok was complicit in the actions of Rish. All I'm hearing is crap like, "He was a high-ranking government member at one point," and "He was an adviser!!!" Quite frankly, that's speculation on the flimsiest of bases and I want to see some actual evidence that Ragnarok's government had anything to do with this spying business.

[juslen]

But propaganda has to at least be based on something that can be argued to be true. There is literally zero evidence suggesting Ragnarok gov is involved in this scheme; they quite literally made it up. This is their logic:

1) Ragnarok Member has a Multi

2) Said Multi tried to infiltrate alliances

3) Ragnarok Member was a former Triumvir

4) Conclusion: This entire thing is obviously a plot by Ragnarok gov.

It very well could be mind you. But the evidence is hardly overwhelming. Their propaganda is pathetic.

Propaganda is a form of communication aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position. As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda in its most basic sense, presents information primarily to influence an audience. Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or uses loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the attitude toward the subject in the target audience to further a political agenda.

Propaganda has one sole purpose, to distract people from the actual facts and invoke a response. Look up propaganda posters during WWII depicting the Japanese as "primitive" people. Or Communist propaganda which depicts communism as loved by all despite the harsh realities of those who actually lived within a communist government.

These are examples of propaganda. Am I still missing something?

[Jyrinx]

Just wondering guys:

Why did Rish join NATO if it wasn't to spy?

It was probably to spy. I doubt anyone is question that. But nobody has yet shown how this implicates Ragnarok government; he seems to have done it without any authorization from Ragnarok.

Again, maybe Ragnarok really did spy on NATO. But you can't just say that; you need a log/screenshot/something to prove it. Saying it's hard to prove doesn't shift the burden of proof.

[Alterego]

Yes, yes the hypocrite angle most of us get that is what is being played here. That's fine except for a few points of difference in the cases that I think we can agree on.

TPF gov was heavily involved in their plot. This is proven.

RoK gov has not yet been tied to Rish's actions. If they are then I would agree they are hypocrites. Until that time it's apples and oranges.

All spying is bad and they were forewarned. The fact they "claim" not to be clever enough to work out he was spying and not going rogue is a weak excuse. If someone said that to me in my alliance I would be putting all kinds of pressure on him to clarify what he meant.

[Kevanovia]

TPF's allies are really scraping the bottom of the barrel. Shut up and do something that requires a bit of balls instead of fabricating evidence.

Eh, seeing as rish was one of RoK's leader and therefore represented RoK.......

I wouldn't really say this is scraping the bottom of the barrel.

If anything, this is irony at least.

[Jyrinx]

Propaganda has one sole purpose, to distract people from the actual facts and invoke a response. Look up propaganda posters during WWII depicting the Japanese as "primitive" people. Or Communist propaganda which depicts communism as loved by all despite the harsh realities of those who actually lived within a communist government.

These are examples of propaganda. Am I still missing something?

No, you're right. I forgot that propaganda can literally just be a lie. My bad.

I apologize for that

[Nobody Expects]

We haven't been spinning anything. Like we've said, this isn't MK's war, this is MK's allies war. And we back our allies no matter what.

You never backed us.........is this a new thing?

[cncruzore85]

spying for

Advising!

[KahlanRahl]

well... this was a good read. obligatory "uhm, cool story bro?"

*KahlanRahl yawns and kicks back till something exciting actually happens.

[Mr Havok]

... so, what does the TPF CB have to do with determining whether or not Ragnarok spied? If the TPF CB never came into existence, how would it affect analyzing the veracity of that? Please, do tell.

Really does it matter you wont believe anything that would be put out there

Your opinion is that the guy was a rogue and had nothing to do with spying for their gov't

Can anything really be said that will change your opinion?

I think that answer is no, so really move along because there is nothing more for you to see here

Again you really arent a great mouthpiece for your alliance

[magicninja]

All spying is bad and they were forewarned. The fact they "claim" not to be clever enough to work out he was spying and not going rogue is a weak excuse. If someone said that to me in my alliance I would be putting all kinds of pressure on him to clarify what he meant.

I'm sure if Rish had gone rogue while in RoK or been caught spying without being deleted then RoK would've expelled him on the spot.

Also, say Rish was in your alliance and pulled this and people were saying it was under orders from your gov. Would you want proof of that?

I would.

[Jyrinx]

Really does it matter you wont believe anything that would be put out there

Your opinion is that the guy was a rogue and had nothing to do with spying for their gov't

Can anything really be said that will change your opinion?

I think that answer is no, so really move along because there is nothing more for you to see here

Again you really arent a great mouthpiece for your alliance

Yes, you can totally change my opinion: by showing something (screenshot, log, etc.) showing something that suggests that RoK gov knew about the incident and/or authorized it. Until then, the presumption is that he was acting on his own. It's called burden of proof being on the accuser. Something that most people accept.

[Lord Brendan]

All I'm getting from these past 20 pages is that IRON has really taken the "repeat, repeat, repeat" strategy to heart.

Honestly this should have ended after page 5, as the purpose of the thread was fulfilled:

We understand, based on recent actions undertaken by Ragnarok, they they see spying as a crime of serious magnitude; as such, we are confident that quick action will be taken on the matter. While the deletions of the two nations make ejection from the RoK AA and attacks by RoK upon Rishnokof impossible, we figure that Van Hoo, given his stated views on spying, will certainly take steps to condemn these foul activities and remove Rishnokof from RoK's community. While we are suspicious---as explained above---that Van Hoo or others in Ragnarok's government were aware of Rishnokof's actions, some correct action on Ragnarok's part on this issue will be a nice gesture in the name of moving forward toward restoring what trust in Ragnarok we may have lost as a result of this situation.

With this new information coming to light, rishnokof is no longer welcome at Ragnarok. We at Ragnarok are actually pretty shocked that a long time member would do such a thing. When he said he was bored and wanted to do something, we assumed he was just going to go rogue on someone he didn't like as that seems to be the trend these days.

We do not condone spying nor have we ever spied on another alliance or been aware of ongoing spy operations against anyone. rishnokof never made us aware of his operation and he certainly never shared any information with us. Had rishnokof still been a member of Ragnarok (and still had a nation) he would have been removed for such an act immediately as per RoK protocol.

Despite the current conflict, IRON, NATO, NSO, TOP and anyone else we are not currently aware of have my sincerest apologies that this occured.

Hoo has condemned the actions of Rish and affirmed that Ragnarok as a whole had no part in them, exactly what NATO, IRON and TOP wanted.

Edited January 1, 2010 by Lord Brendan

[Kzoppistan]

An interesting development, to be sure. Sometimes its better to stop after making modest gains, then to act the fool by overextending and having the situation completely reversed on you.

If I were a malicious person, I wouldn't even have made that statement to an opponent but allowed it to happen. Or maybe I would and then gloat with an "I told you so." I guess no one really knows what they'll do in a situation until it happens. But I'm not that kind of person, and thankfully, at this moment, Zenith has no direct opponents but only ones by proxy.

Again, I urge those attacking my ally to take it to the table and find a resolution to everyone's satisfaction before things spiral out of control.

Interesting read. Good luck to the parties involved in getting this spy thing sorted out.

Edited January 1, 2010 by Kzoppistan

[Rafael Nadal]

Really does it matter you wont believe anything that would be put out there

Your opinion is that the guy was a rogue and had nothing to do with spying for their gov't

Can anything really be said that will change your opinion?

I think that answer is no, so really move along because there is nothing more for you to see here

Again you really arent a great mouthpiece for your alliance

Nothing can really be said to change my opinion. However, things can be shown. Something that shows Rok gov't knew and/or sanctioned Rish spying would do wonders to change our opinions.