An Announcement from Zero Hour

[Tulafaras]

We disagree on whether a state of war existed. When Athens Declared on NPO TPF was put into a state of war with Athens. Just because they did not publicly acknowledge that state of war does not mean that they did not privately act on it. Public acknowledgments are not always strategically sound and in this case keeping the state of war quiet was far more advantageous strategically.

in that case they are still at war since Athens was not a signatory of their surrender.

[Baldr]

But that's just it: ZH had given up, not TPF. It's not ZH being rolled here, as much as some people wish it were.

That's one of the things I find interesting. The members of ZH were the ones actually in a position to do harm. Obviously, they didn't, and apparently they came forward at some point. I haven't figured out when - it's been a long time since the war ended, and it looks to me like TPF was given peace long enough to pay reps, and this is being used as an excuse to tear them down again.

But most TPF members would not have even known about this. All ZH members were aware of the plan, OK with it, part of it - but ZH gets off, and is actually protected by Athens, while TPF burns.

[Tulafaras]

This point is moot as is the question and request of "proof". It ended long long ago so it would appear to me that they had no problem with it ending at ANY time, and not just this specific date you are asking about.

or they had no viable means to force compliance on ZH (which is just as likely as what you are saying).

[King Srqt]

in that case they are still at war since Athens was not a signatory of their surrender.

Actually if you read the treaty TPF surrendered to all of Karma, a coalition which Athens was a part of. If Athens did not wish to abide by the treaty as written and presented by "The Voice of Karma" then perhaps they should not have been a part of the coalition.

[Merrie Melodies]

Actually if you read the treaty TPF surrendered to all of Karma, a coalition which Athens was a part of. If Athens did not wish to abide by the treaty as written and presented by "The Voice of Karma" then perhaps they should not have been a part of the coalition.

Damn you and your logic, the great pixel genocide is upon us, stop trying to ruin it.

[Ardus]

We disagree on whether a state of war existed. When Athens Declared on NPO TPF was put into a state of war with Athens. Just because they did not publicly acknowledge that state of war does not mean that they did not privately act on it. Public acknowledgments are not always strategically sound and in this case keeping the state of war quiet was far more advantageous strategically.

That is a slippery slope. It's just that idea of war that enables large alliances to impose terms on their enemies through the smaller alliances that fight alongside them. LoSS's eviction from the black sphere at the end of GWIII is a case in point: GOONS demanded VE remove them from the sphere and there wasn't any other way to prevent it, so it happened. Great pains were taken in Karma, by both sides, to establish wars as specific and limited, not wide-reaching.

[ThatFALGuy]

or they had no viable means to force compliance on ZH (which is just as likely as what you are saying).

Meh, the actions are there to show that they really didn't care that it ended.

There have however been no indications that TPF wished to force anything upon ZH in any form.

I don't see the two points being viable with one another in any form....not to argue it to death, just my understanding here.

[King Srqt]

That is a slippery slope. It's just that idea of war that enables large alliances to impose terms on their enemies through the smaller alliances that fight alongside them. LoSS's eviction from the black sphere at the end of GWIII is a case in point: GOONS demanded VE remove them from the sphere and there wasn't any other way to prevent it, so it happened. Great pains were taken in Karma, by both sides, to establish wars as specific and limited, not wide-reaching.

Regardless of what pains Karma went through TPF was within their right and was in fact obligated to engage in war against Athens in whatever way they could and that is exactly what they did.

But I will humor you and for arguments sake say that no state of war existed between the two alliances. TPF's plans were never executed. So I will ask you this. If MK were to attack VE tonight and TJO started making out plans for an attack on MK to defend our treaty partners but for some reason the war ended before our plans were able to be carried out, does MK now have a valid CB against TJO for plotting and attack against MK while no state of war existed between our alliances?

[ThatFALGuy]

Athens and TPF were at war. They were on opposing sides, they were fighting each others allies and they had no love for each other. How does that not make you a form of enemy and every reasonable form of wartime opponent?

Athens was part of Karma, TPF was fighting Karma, Athens was also fighting TPF allies, to me it is barely different than fighting an alliance of 50, you can only legitimately fight 6 at one time, does that now mean that the remaining 44 were never involved, never enemies, never opponents? Is this person fighting "X" alliance or "A,B,C,D,E and F" sovereign members?

Karma fought as a whole on their needed fronts and they offered and signed peace as a whole. Athens was a part of that whole.

[Fantastico]

Regardless of what pains Karma went through TPF was within their right and was in fact obligated to engage in war against Athens in whatever way they could and that is exactly what they did.

But I will humor you and for arguments sake say that no state of war existed between the two alliances. TPF's plans were never executed. So I will ask you this. If MK were to attack VE tonight and TJO started making out plans for an attack on MK to defend our treaty partners but for some reason the war ended before our plans were able to be carried out, does MK now have a valid CB against TJO for plotting and attack against MK while no state of war existed between our alliances?

You're missing the part where TJO sends off a splinter alliance led by Doitzel that requests an MADP from the MK, and settles for a protectorate.

edit: you are = you're dammit

Edited December 29, 2009 by Fantastico

[Ardus]

Regardless of what pains Karma went through TPF was within their right and was in fact obligated to engage in war against Athens in whatever way they could and that is exactly what they did.

But I will humor you and for arguments sake say that no state of war existed between the two alliances. TPF's plans were never executed. So I will ask you this. If MK were to attack VE tonight and TJO started making out plans for an attack on MK to defend our treaty partners but for some reason the war ended before our plans were able to be carried out, does MK now have a valid CB against TJO for plotting and attack against MK while no state of war existed between our alliances?

When I say "in Karma", I meant in the "Karma War", just to clarify.

And I s'pose that depends on if TJO continued plotting after peace was signed between the warring parties. The TPF plot existed, unchanged, in that nice period between NPO's surrender and their own surrender, when it was in no way shape or form obligated to defend NPO any further. Furthermore, the plot imposed was, as has been stated, clearly a long term mission that could not have had an impact on a war that nobody intended to make permanent... except apparently mhawk.

[King Srqt]

You're missing the part where TJO sends off a splinter alliance led by Doitzel that requests an MADP from the MK, and settles for a protectorate.

edit: you are = you're dammit

No I'm not, that was part of TPF's plan to infiltrate Athens however the plan was aborted between any infiltration. If in the previous example we had plans to send members of our alliance to apply to MK in an attempt to gain information but never did it because the war ended MK still does not have any CB against us.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

Regardless of what pains Karma went through TPF was within their right and was in fact obligated to engage in war against Athens in whatever way they could and that is exactly what they did.

This is just wrong, no matter how many times it gets said it's still completely wrong.

I fought in the karma war. My alliance declared on ONE other alliance. Now if it was as you are saying, I would have been able to stay at war longer than I did, and I would have been allowed to hit numerous other alliances, but in fact that just isnt true. We all declared on particular targets and only fought those targets.

And that's not all! There is another falsehood you are promoting here, which is the notion that what TPF is accused of doing was simply an act of war, not objectionable during war. This is just as false as the claim that they were at war with Athens when the plan was hatched. EVEN HAD THEY BEEN, the tactics used (OOC infiltration) are not simply acts of war, they are war-crimes, which legitimate alliances would not use or condone even given a state of war with the targets which did not, in fact, exist.

And even more! Even granting for the sake of argument two falsehoods, had TPF been at war with Athens, had TPFs tactics really been nothing more than acts of war, TPF would still have had a positive obligation to reveal the weapon they had unleashed and assist Athens in disarming it at the time of the peace treaty, for that to give them any cover.

[King Srqt]

This is just wrong, no matter how many times it gets said it's still completely wrong.

I fought in the karma war. My alliance declared on ONE other alliance. Now if it was as you are saying, I would have been able to stay at war longer than I did, and I would have been allowed to hit numerous other alliances, but in fact that just isnt true. We all declared on particular targets and only fought those targets.

And if that alliance had treaty partners those treaty partners would have the right an obligation to recognize a state of war with you, that is how treaties work. You do not get to say "We declare on you and only you so your friends don't get to help even if they are obligated to"

Athens declared war on an alliance that TPF was obligated by treaty to defend.

And that's not all! There is another falsehood you are promoting here, which is the notion that what TPF is accused of doing was simply an act of war, not objectionable during war. This is just as false as the claim that they were at war with Athens when the plan was hatched. EVEN HAD THEY BEEN, the tactics used (OOC infiltration) are not simply acts of war, they are war-crimes, which legitimate alliances would not use or condone even given a state of war with the targets which did not, in fact, exist.

There are no "war Crimes" here. There is no written code of conduct of what is and is not acceptable means to wage (IC) war. War is destructive and it should be destructive if you can not handle covert war tactics such as the ones that TPF used then you should join GPA and grow some infra.

And even more! Even granting for the sake of argument two falsehoods, had TPF been at war with Athens, had TPFs tactics really been nothing more than acts of war, TPF would still have had a positive obligation to reveal the weapon they had unleashed and assist Athens in disarming it at the time of the peace treaty, for that to give them any cover.

The weapon was "disarmed" and abandoned as a weapon before peace waqs achieved so even if TPF was obligated to reveal a possible threat there was no longer a threat to reveal.

[Fantastico]

Regarding the jedi splinter thing, I guess it's okay to disagree over these things, since I can appreciate where you are coming from.

However,

The weapon was "disarmed" and abandoned as a weapon before peace waqs achieved so even if TPF was obligated to reveal a possible threat there was no longer a threat to reveal.

I've quoted the above since I don't think Zero Hour was disarmed, let alone defused, whatsoever.

I think everyone can agree on that.

[King Srqt]

Regarding the jedi splinter thing, I guess it's okay to disagree over these things, since I can appreciate where you are coming from.

However,

I've quoted the above since I don't think Zero Hour was disarmed, let alone defused, whatsoever.

I think everyone can agree on that.

When I say that I meant disarmed and diffused as a threat to Athens, they were obviously still a powder keg for TPF

[Fantastico]

When I say that I meant disarmed and diffused as a threat to Athens, they were obviously still a powder keg for TPF

Yep, I just keep thinking of this whole business in weak metaphorical terms of a minefield that was not taken care following a war.

[Tulafaras]

Regardless of what pains Karma went through TPF was within their right and was in fact obligated to engage in war against Athens in whatever way they could and that is exactly what they did.

But I will humor you and for arguments sake say that no state of war existed between the two alliances. TPF's plans were never executed. So I will ask you this. If MK were to attack VE tonight and TJO started making out plans for an attack on MK to defend our treaty partners but for some reason the war ended before our plans were able to be carried out, does MK now have a valid CB against TJO for plotting and attack against MK while no state of war existed between our alliances?

seriously Srqt you are just wrong here.

TPF declared against a specific alliance to follow their treaty obligation. They did not declare against Athens and they did not engage athens. What you are doing here is splitting hairs so thin that you can't even see them anymore.

You honestly want to say that a long term plan which might come to fruition 4 months later was TPF's obligation?

And no Srqt you are also wrong that Archon had the authority to sign ANYTHING for "karma". He called himself the voice of Karma in a specific thread which explained our reasons. He did not post our Dow's for us nor anything similar. Not a single alliance gave him a proxy to sign binding treaties for us. Which is why every single front negotiated their own peace agreements at the end of the war.

[Captain Flinders]

Nails in the coffin. This is too good.

[OneBallMan]

Do you or anyone else have any evidence that TPF would have ended it on August 4 if ZH hadn't done so?

Yes. It was our surrender, as stated in our peace terms, to The Forces of Karma. Find me a violation, of any kind of those terms. We didn't. We haven't. We agreed to end all hostile acts, and we did to the letter. Ask around, we paid aggressively, and quickly. We were let out early for exactly the reasons I stated in the sentence prior.

You can banter about whether these operations were legitimate, I could care less, but you cannot forsake our surrender.

[Aeternos Astramora]

Logs prove that TPF didn't have any plans after surrender. Way to go?

[Baldr]

Furthermore, the plot imposed was, as has been stated, clearly a long term mission that could not have had an impact on a war that nobody intended to make permanent... except apparently mhawk.

Considering TPF has been attacked with no diplomatic effort before the fact, I think it could be argued that the war on TPF has been made permanent by Athens. If Athens didn't want that, they would have talked instead of attacking.

[Trigger]

Actually, reading is fundamental. The existance of ZH was the dream and want BEFORE the war, of a couple of TPF members to have and run their own alliance.

Your trigger is brokened bud.

I still say this is BS. If ZH was their "dream" as you say, why would they be content to have it rolled into Athens as the logs I read indicated?

I thought we all agreed to leave the poor analogies at the door...

[Lord Levistus]

Regarding the jedi splinter thing, I guess it's okay to disagree over these things, since I can appreciate where you are coming from.

However,

I've quoted the above since I don't think Zero Hour was disarmed, let alone defused, whatsoever.

I think everyone can agree on that.

Then why are they not disabling the weapon that was never defused?

It's known by everyone that ZH acts alone, and not subordinate to mHawk, so attacking tpf won't make a lick of difference if ZH isn't disarmed, disabled, and or destroyed.

[Kzoppistan]

An interesting post. It doesn't shed much more light on the subject, but an official word from ZH is appreciated.

*edit: The rest has been moved.

Edited December 29, 2009 by Kzoppistan