An Announcement from Zero Hour

[Fantastico]

Regrets? I've had a few. The bottom line issue is whether you believe that clandestine, and covert ops are a legitimate tactic of war. The next line is whether you believe, like we did in TPF, that we were at war with all of the Karmites, and not simply those that were generous and kind enough to DoW us, (we had many, many alliance interlopers who were on the Karma side who just randomly attacked us). Sincerely, we saw ourselves that way.

So, if you think that it is legitimate to plan and carry out these wars in wartime, (still on the fence on that one, personally) and your mindset does not afford you the luxury of cherry picking those aligned against you, well there isn't much room for remorse or apologies.

That isn't an admission of anything from a formal perspective (I do not speak for TPF in any capacity, unless I am asked to), but a response to your fair query.

Thank you for your answer.

I believe all of us know covert operations have been a tactic used in war and in "peace" on Planet Bob since the beginning. The tactic of bringing an alliance down from the inside is certainly not a new one, and I admit to finding some of the outrage here over this point either naive or faked.

I guess for me I don't see "covert ops" as the bottom line, or the ultimate consideration, especially since the operation got all screwed up. My only sticking point is why would TPF, on knowing what a mess was brewing behind the scenes when the doo hit the proverbial fan, would not have approached Athens last August.

Just seems like common sense damage control. That not having been done is what still has my eyebrows raised a bit in disbelief.

I trust still that this can be brought to some workable resolution, which is why I zero in on the need for a better sense of owning up to or regret from your alliance.

[ThatFALGuy]

TBB, can you clarify for me here. You're saying that ZH was discussed BEFORE the war. It's been stated that ZH was formed for the purpose of infiltrating Athens. Are you saying that the infiltration plans started before the war or am I missing something else?

What he is saying is that ZH was planned as an alliance before the war, for nothing other than some members that wanted to have their own alliance. During the war, they were talked to about helping out with what was then the seemingly inevitable perpetual war they were looking at for thier future, ala VietFAN style.

ZH as actually stated, was NOT formed FOR spying.

[King Srqt]

So no actual action was taken against Athens or RoK and the whole thing was completely called off before the end of the Karma war.

This thread has cemented my view that this war is crap.

[Rush Sykes]

Well, there is no doubt to give, really – hostile acts did end.

Obviously I think that deliberately sabotaging an alliance's membership is a hostile act, and a stonewall CB for war. So is organising an update blitz, and it's on the same level of blatancy. But they were already at war – acts of war are to be expected, although I personally wouldn't have approved that one.

I'm planning to nuke you. If you attack me, though, it's you that will get rolled for being a rogue. This justification didn't work for GGA in the Viridicide and it won't work for you.

We were livid that our pre-arranged war with BLEU was tangled up with the disgraceful war on Hyperion, indeed. However, you undermine your own point by pointing out that the war is considered as two sides, and that our 'side' included the other war. Polar did exactly what TPF have done here in that war, by launching a full blitz on Valhalla (who were on another front).

It is also different because Hyperion and Polaris were not MADP partners.

I am not saying that there were no separate fronts in Karma (obviously there were), but that an alliance expanding the war to other alliances on the other side should not then be used for a new war once the main coalition war is over.

As an ordinary member, you declare on who you're ordered to declare on. As I said, alliances were assigned to fronts in order to satisfy treaty lawyers and to maximise efficiency. Someone had to be assigned to IRON and unfortunately it was us.

If this war was meant to be all-inclusive on 2 sides, then when, when the IRON front ended, and you, being in Karma at the time, did you not go hit someone else then? I know the answer to this, and you know the answer to this. Further, actions like MHA prohibiting bandwaggoning on NPO, is further evidence that it was not a free-flowing battlefield. If it were as you want to paint it out to be, Karma sides, after accepting surrender, would have been immediately redeployed. And, under you explanation, it would have not only been ok, it would have been expected. This is quite silly.

[malazar]

The second one is the one Kilkenny keeps bringing up. It involved selecting a group of roughly 20 nations to leave TPF, surrender and rebuild, and then return to TPF post war. . Here ZH admits that they were surrendering so that at some point after the war, they could return to TPF as strong, rebuilt nations.

The plans outlined in the OP were the three plans TPF had I believe. Only the first plan was relevant to ZH and the issue at hand. Having been chosen to participate in the second plan by Kilkenny, ZH was never intended as part of that rebuilding TPF post-war/paying reps plan since frankly none of ZH had any money since we were all coming off of prolonged time at ZI so that would be a silly location to send people. That plan was to have us go to friendly allied alliances that were out of the war and being rebuilt so we could either return to TPF post-war or at least help pay reps or rebuild other beaten down nations. As far as I know, this plan never really caught on or was followed up on considering I never heard from anyone in govt. again after a day or two after I surrendered with any of the arrangements for aid or an alliance. That is when I said screw it and joined ZH and arranged my own aid from outside sources which were not involved with that plan.

[Tulafaras]

Your skills at selective reading are top notch in that case.

[Rush Sykes]

Man, this world will be an awesome place though if intent to war becomes a CB. You can attack ANYONE who doesn't like you or plans anything.

You already can do it. IRON did it, and got roundly hailed for their honest of their CB.

[Trigger]

What he is saying is that ZH was planned as an alliance before the war, for nothing other than some members that wanted to have their own alliance. During the war, they were talked to about helping out with what was then the seemingly inevitable perpetual war they were looking at for thier future, ala VietFAN style.

ZH as actually stated, was NOT formed FOR spying.

I see, but not sure I fully believe this. If the founders of ZH wanted their own alliance, why would they agree to a plan that has them fold into Athens and blow it up from the inside? Sounds like a waste of the alliance they wanted. Then again, who can know what someone else is actually thinking/wanting.

[bigwoody]

You already can do it. IRON did it, and got roundly hailed for their honest of their CB.

It was quite honest (although also a treaty activation, so the precise wording was rather irrelevant).

I wish more would be so honest.

[ThatFALGuy]

Thank you for your answer.

I believe all of us know covert operations have been a tactic used in war and in "peace" on Planet Bob since the beginning. The tactic of bringing an alliance down from the inside is certainly not a new one, and I admit to finding some of the outrage here over this point either naive or faked.

I guess for me I don't see "covert ops" as the bottom line, or the ultimate consideration, especially since the operation got all screwed up. My only sticking point is why would TPF, on knowing what a mess was brewing behind the scenes when the doo hit the proverbial fan, would not have approached Athens last August.

Just seems like common sense damage control. That not having been done is what still has my eyebrows raised a bit in disbelief.

I trust still that this can be brought to some workable resolution, which is why I zero in on the need for a better sense of owning up to or regret from your alliance.

Would you make a point of rehashing old wounds, that never were? Would you go running to your enemy, past or present to let em know about every idea, good, bad or failed that had been brought up during a war?

The idea was off the table for various reasons, it was forgotten about, it was never enacted and nothing ever came of it. What is the point of even bothering to mention it? This same question needs posed to ZH themselves. Why bother with this so many months later if it had never even ended up happening? I could see, maybe, if they were running an actual OP now or even a month after the war ended and hostilities had ceased (which is subjective in itself, has the hostility ceased? Why do we have these threads, these wars and this chest thumping going on if it had?), Athens having a real and tangible issue with it, I know I would, but it just isn't the case here.

[Rush Sykes]

TPF said very early that they were going down with NPO. There was a period where it seemed (at least to those within the two alliances) that NPO was not going to get terms, and therefore TPF would not see peace. It is slightly different because they could have bailed on NPO at any time, but it isn't as different as you make out.

Well, they hadn't done anything like this 'sooner' . During Karma, maybe. But once they had got peace with Karma, it should have been over.

The justification has been given that TPF, in her desire to be the last man on the battlefield, could not achieve peace until Pacifica achieved peace. TPF have further stated, that this operation was launched because they thought they were in an eternal war, because "Athens, et. al. were saying NPO would never be given peace." Its quoted multiple times in mulptiple threads.

This operation ended on August 2nd. Pacifica received terms July 16. It should have been on July 16th, when TPFs entire reason for thinking the war would never end had dissolved, then so to should have this operation. It didnt. It didnt end till those in ZH decided it was over. The fact that TPF allowed this to continue for nearly three weeks after they KNEW they would soon get peace, leads Athens to believe that TPF intended to carry this operation out to it end. It is sad that so many of you cant see this, so many of you who say "They thought they were in an eternal war." Truly amazing.

[Fantastico]

Would you make a point of rehashing old wounds, that never were? Would you go running to your enemy, past or present to let em know about every idea, good, bad or failed that had been brought up during a war?

The idea was off the table for various reasons, it was forgotten about, it was never enacted and nothing ever came of it. What is the point of even bothering to mention it? This same question needs posed to ZH themselves. Why bother with this so many months later if it had never even ended up happening? I could see, maybe, if they were running an actual OP now or even a month after the war ended and hostilities had ceased (which is subjective in itself, has the hostility ceased? Why do we have these threads, these wars and this chest thumping going on if it had?), Athens having a real and tangible issue with it, I know I would, but it just isn't the case here.

After what we have been witness to the past few days in the way of logs and drama, are the bolded parts sarcasm?

[ThatFALGuy]

I see, but not sure I fully believe this. If the founders of ZH wanted their own alliance, why would they agree to a plan that has them fold into Athens and blow it up from the inside? Sounds like a waste of the alliance they wanted. Then again, who can know what someone else is actually thinking/wanting.

Simply ask them about it.

I think Yohan would be a good place to start.

[ThatFALGuy]

After what we have been witness to the past few days in the way of logs and drama, are the bolded parts sarcasm?

No, they are not sarcasm. It was asked why TPF did not just come to Athens and tell them of this failed idea of many months ago, those bolded reasons are why.

If you and me are fighting and I tell someone that I want to kick you in the clusters, our war ends and I did NOT kick you in the clusters...does it makes sense to come back months later and tell you that I wanted to do this? Why exactly would I bother?

Edited December 29, 2009 by Chimay

[Ardus]

So no actual action was taken against Athens or RoK and the whole thing was completely called off before the end of the Karma war.

This thread has cemented my view that this war is crap.

If I try to shoot you and the gun jams, it's still attempted murder.

[iamthey]

After my immediate frustration yesterday, this does bring to mind a few things. While I can't say I would have handled the situation the same, and while I am not too happy with the situation this war has put us in; I can say I understand the reaction of Athens/rok. Having worked in IRON gov around the time that we took the jarheads on as a protectorate we went through a similar instance of having our diplomatic efforts and benevolence with an alliance !@#$ on by the alliance itself. While I can't say I don't sympathize with TPF, I understand the realization of looking back at your interactions with them six months ago and realizing that it was all a farce. To that end I can understand the desire for blood, and how you must feel simply fed up with TPF as an alliance. (Thats assuming the CB in this case was what actually motivated the war itself). Whether instant war without diplomacy, or even war itself was necessary to adress this... I suppose at this point are irrelevant questions, the point is at least one side is not ready to begin talks and a lot of alliances and nations are going to suffer for the mistakes of some, and the anger of others. :/

[ThatFALGuy]

If I try to shoot you and the gun jams, it's still attempted murder.

Try an analogy more on spot with this like, if I thought about shooting you, but never did, then what did I do wrong?

[Ardus]

After my immediate frustration yesterday, this does bring to mind a few things. While I can't say I would have handled the situation the same, and while I am not too happy with the situation this war has put us in; I can say I understand the reaction of Athens/rok. Having worked in IRON gov around the time that we took the jarheads on as a protectorate we went through a similar instance of having our diplomatic efforts and benevolence with an alliance !@#$ on by the alliance itself. While I can't say I don't sympathize with TPF, I understand the realization of looking back at your interactions with them six months ago and realizing that it was all a farce. To that end I can understand the desire for blood, and how you must feel simply fed up with TPF as an alliance. (Thats assuming the CB in this case was what actually motivated the war itself). Whether instant war without diplomacy, or even war itself was necessary to adress this... I suppose at this point are irrelevant questions, the point is at least one side is not ready to begin talks and a lot of alliances and nations are going to suffer for the mistakes of some, and the anger of others. :/

Even-handedness is simply not allowed on Planet Bob. I'm going to have to ask you to revise your message.

[ewatk432]

If I try to shoot you and the gun jams, it's still attempted murder.

Not during times of war though, It's pretty clear this was done as a 'Doomsday' scenario by TPF.

[Ardus]

Try an analogy more on spot with this like, if I thought about shooting you, but never did, then what did I do wrong?

The existence of Zero Hour is evidence that TPF pulled the trigger. They had no hesitation or qualms about doing so, nor were they the ones to cease the unfolding plot. Thus the analogy--TPF pulled the trigger, ZH jammed.

[Fantastico]

No, they are not sarcasm. It was asked why TPF did not just come to Athens and tell them of this failed idea of many months ago, those bolded reasons are why.

If you and me are fighting and I tell someone that I want to kick you in the clusters, our war ends and I did NOT kick you in the clusters...does it makes sense to come back months later and tell you that I wanted to do this? Why exactly would I bother?

Well, if that friend you told turns on you and tells you he will do anything to destroy you, it might be a good idea to let me know so I don't help him cut off your feet.

Never heard of clusters.

[astronaut jones]

Well, two pertinent facts that I know you've conveniently forgotten, well b/c I know you and I know you are playing dumb on this one. First, I conducted the peace negotiations for the most part, and I know you know that I had zilcho knowledge of this op. In fact, it doth appear that the only person who did in TPF, was in fact not available [OOC] or on his regular continent[/OOC]. Second, the op was terminated in a cesspool of OOC stuff.

TPF had months to come clean about it, however. It's not excusing anything, it's not playing dumb, it's just the facts whether you like them or not. TPF not coming clean about an operation, failed or otherwise, that could have potentially compromised the integrity of another alliance is nobody's fault but TPF's. Once TPF gets over their persecution complex, maybe you'll all see what you should have done.

[ThatFALGuy]

The existence of Zero Hour is evidence that TPF pulled the trigger. They had no hesitation or qualms about doing so, nor were they the ones to cease the unfolding plot. Thus the analogy--TPF pulled the trigger, ZH jammed.

Actually, reading is fundamental. The existance of ZH was the dream and want BEFORE the war, of a couple of TPF members to have and run their own alliance.

Your trigger is brokened bud.

[Dagrr]

But yes, it is a valid CB. The point is though that they were already in 'B' (war) at the point where they were committing it.

This sums up my feelings on this situation.

Yes, the CB is valid. But the actions that validate the casus belli occurred when TPF was already at war with the forces of Karma. In order for the CB to apply to the present conflict, evidence must be shown that TPF continued their spying operations after the peace terms ending the Karma War took affect. Or you could be dip!@#$s and say "TPF must prove they ended their operations." In my opinion they don't have to. Athens and company attacked TPF; the justification for said attack must be provided by Athens and company.

The other point being brought up is that TPF never specifically declared war on Athens, so any actions conducted by TPF were not concluded by the peace treaty ending TPF's involvement in the Karma War. The level of communication that occurs between alliances on "one side" means to me that you're in a de facto state of war with all the other alliances on the opposite side, even if conflicting treaties do not allow you to declare war directly.

None of this really matters anyway, because the troops appear to already be moving.

[Yerushalayim]

So, I've been lurking and reading the threads about this war since it began, and I'm not sure if I have a grasp on the situation.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, as I certainly haven't read all of the infodumps and logs that were posted. The situation, as I understand it, is this: During the Karma war, TPF's leader discussed the possibility for a black op involving infiltrating and doing damage to Athens and/or RoK. The op itself was never carried out, but got far enough that the group intended to infiltrate Athens was, indeed, formed. The op ended sometime before the end of the Karma war, and wasn't mentioned again until ZH decided to inform Athens of it now. Athens, having not considered itself in a formal state of hostility with TPF, is understandably angry that this op was even started, regardless of its discontinuation. A war was launched to keep TPF from going into hippy, and diplomacy was abandoned in favour of this more militant approach. Athenian allies have jumped in, and TPF is now being smacked around.

That the gist of what's happened?

And the argument, as I understand it, is whether or not TPF's planned (and started) op constitutes an act of war, or if it was a valid wartime act during the Karma War.

On the one hand (from TPF's side), I can see why it might be viewed as just another part of the Karma War.

On the other hand (Athens' side), Athens wasn't formally at war with TPF, and this is a fairly underhanded tactic. Also, why would TPF choose Athens instead of another alliance they were directly fighting? Why wasn't Karma (or Athens in particular) notified that their new "friend" in ZH had originated as an attempt to do them harm?