Countdown to Athens Rep Payment

[Tygaland]

This is most certainly not the only situation casting doubt on the motivations and questionable behavior of those formerly under the banner of "Karma." But, I suppose, as far as this situation goes, it would only apply to those who remain allied to Athens as they behave as the NPO and co. once did, so you are guilt free (in this situation) if you are not allied to them. Though you already had your day to shine the light on your own behavior, so we've already seen STA and your true selves.

So, you have gone the "ok, you caught me talking crap and making things up so I'm going to make some flippant insinuation about the credibility of your alliance" approach.

If you believe the STA stating they did not approve of the tech raid on KoN! and then allowing Athens to sort the issue out with KoN!, as their sovereign right, reflects poorly on my alliance then I guess I'll have to wear it.

[Dochartaigh]

I probably would have said hear, but other than that, that is remarkably similar to how this went down on my end. Well, other than the outside discussions on what justice is, whether it matters who brings up a potential injustice, etc. But that is how my discussion with Athens went, so you are correct.

It would be a lot easier and require less talking if everyone just filtered their discussion points through me, eh?

expect many PMs from me then JB.

[Tygaland]

well, Athens and FoB for the tech raiding and the Do something bout it attitude. Then there is the whole WF fiasco with VE acting like NPO protecting GGA back in the day. not to mention the might makes right attitude there.

then there is the whole Stickmen drama with Purple that includes FoK and CnG.

then there is this thread right here.

so, with these incidents lining up left, right, and center how is there just one thief?

i love ya Tyga, but i typically don't come to an opinion like this based on one thing. it tends to be many things that add up into one conclusion.

Ah, I thought when you said this:

i would think the "Moral Revolution" was undermined the moment that one of the key supporters decided to tech raid an alliance and then use "Do Something About It" type posts instead of attempting to reason it out.

That is what you meant. That is, that any good the Karma War did was undone by that single issue. Which is why I replied as I did.

[Wilhelm the Demented]

"Outrage" on here means nothing when alliances who claim to be outraged remain tied by treaty to the guilty party. Seeing as I did not see who was outraged in the original discussion, I suppose I can't really cast judgment, but it's possible none of their allies were outraged by this behavior, so it's possible none of them showed false outrage only to remain allied to Athens.

Dropping an Ally due to global pressure is considered honorable now?

Athens made a poor choice - and it has reverberated and reverberates still, but they identified their mistake, and they are working to resolve the issue. Justice has done her work, and yet people insist on tipping the scales back and forth.

Any Ally worth their weight, and it is apparent that Athens' has chosen good company, wouldn't drop them for a mistake and a little bad PR.

Edit: Sorry, snipped the wrong part of the quote.

Edited December 5, 2009 by wilhelm the demented

[Iotupa]

@JB- when Karma first ended, i honestly felt optimistic. over the past few months, it has gone from being optimistic to being cynical and most likely slightly jaded as the alliances i fought alongside have since begun to show that they seem to like having power and being capable of bullying others.

i still feel that there are a few alliances from the Karma war that act with honor and the ideals that the Karma war represented, though most of those few did so since the beginning of their existence.

I wish my optimism had lasted as long as yours. When in the first days of the war one of the main guilty, if not THE most guilty in the OV (It was OV that started the "Karma" War, right?) situation, that being TORN, was allowed out basically unscathed due to their ally being one of the main figureheads of "Karma" and then someone from that same figurehead alliance started spouting off things I had heard from the NPO during my time in the Initiative, my optimism was gone. It did not even last the whole war.

So, you have gone the "ok, you caught me talking crap and making things up so I'm going to make some flippant insinuation about the credibility of your alliance" approach.

If you believe the STA stating they did not approve of the tech raid on KoN! and then allowing Athens to sort the issue out with KoN!, as their sovereign right, reflects poorly on my alliance then I guess I'll have to wear it.

No, I don't know anything at all about your stance on the Knights of Ni! situation, so I wouldn't assume to pass judgment on you around this. You showed your true colors by demanding reps from Kronos for the actions of a rogue nation. Mr. Tyga "White Peace" land demanded reps for something Kronos had absolutely no control over. I'm glad Kronos didn't pay you a dime, because you didn't deserve anything.

expect many PMs from me then JB.

I'll clear out my inbox to make room.

[Tygaland]

No, I don't know anything at all about your stance on the Knights of Ni! situation, so I wouldn't assume to pass judgment on you around this. You showed your true colors by demanding reps from Kronos for the actions of a rogue nation. Mr. Tyga "White Peace" land demanded reps for something Kronos had absolutely no control over. I'm glad Kronos didn't pay you a dime, because you didn't deserve anything.

Then our stance on the Knights of Ni! raid is not the only thing you are sadly uninformed about.

[Iotupa]

Then our stance on the Knights of Ni! raid is not the only thing you are sadly uninformed about.

Oh, sorry, it was two rogue nations, wasn't it?

[Tygaland]

Oh, sorry, it was two rogue nations, wasn't it?

Yes it was. But there is far more you do not know. But, far be it for me to stop the uninformed ranting like experts.

[Wilhelm the Demented]

@Wilhelm- alright, the OP is one item. do you have any proof about everyone else you claim is undermining the moral revolution? which by the way falls under world climate and world motivation, as you stated people- many of whom are from different alliances and thus, will include world climate and motivation when it comes to undermining the "Moral Revolution".

If I had to point to every other post in this thread, it would take all day.

I was replying to JB's post, I'm pretty sure - he brought the Moralist issue into the thread, and I commented on it seeing that it was relevant to the counter-argument I was presenting.

Oh god - I'm arguing about arguing - I give in, you got me.

/me falls over dead.

[Dochartaigh]

Ah, I thought when you said this:

That is what you meant. That is, that any good the Karma War did was undone by that single issue. Which is why I replied as I did.

ahhh... sorry, i was simply responding in a like manner to what Wilhelm stated when he said that because people were reacting the way they were in this thread, they were undermining the "Moral Revolution". my lack of faith in many of the alliances that fought for this revolution was brought about by the list i mentioned as well as the actions of several alliances during the Karma war.

@Willhelm- i have to agree on the fact that dropping Athens or FoB due to global pressure would have been seen in much the same light as Q was when many of them dropped their individual treaties with NPO and became the Coward Coalition. i never honestly expected anyone to drop their treaties with either Athens or FoB as most, if not all (not sure who is all allied to Athens or FoB) of their allies are quite loyal.

as for arguing over arguing, yeah that happens.

@JB- i am actually still unsure how i feel about TORN getting off scott free as they did. To me, it was quite similar to when TPF was allowed out of the UjP scott free, another situation that i have mulled over but have no clear feelings on.

Edited December 5, 2009 by Dochartaigh

[Iotupa]

Dropping an Ally due to global pressure is considered honorable now?

Athens made a poor choice - and it has reverberated and reverberates still, but they identified their mistake, and they are working to resolve the issue. Justice has done her work, and yet people insist on tipping the scales back and forth.

Any Ally worth their weight, and it is apparent that Athens' has chosen good company, wouldn't drop them for a mistake and a little bad PR.

Edit: Sorry, snipped the wrong part of the quote.

I wasn't saying an ally should drop anyone due to outside pressure. I've been on the bad end of that situation when VE and NpO dropped my alliance because NPO and GGA told them to, so I wouldn't wish that on anyone else. I do think if I was running an alliance that was allied to another alliance that just decided to attack an alliance with no provocation, no declaration of war, and no casus belli (not even a made up one, as is normal here on Planet Bob), I would certainly question the decision making and judgment of that ally, and it would definitely be in doubt as to whether I would keep the treaty.

@JB- i am actually still unsure how i feel about TORN getting off scott free as they did. To me, it was quite similar to when TPF was allowed out of the UjP scott free, another situation that i have mulled over but have no clear feelings on.

Let me go ahead and clear that up for you. TPF had absolutely no plans whatsoever to ever fight on the side of the UjP and had negotiated their way out on day one of the war. As far as I could tell and from what I was told from people in the alliances surrounding the "Karma" War, TORN was the driving force behind the attacks that started the war. The situation is a little bit different in that regard, at least in my opinion.

Yes it was. But there is far more you do not know. But, far be it for me to stop the uninformed ranting like experts.

I am not as uninformed about the situation as you may think. My inactivity in public quarters during that time should not be taken as ignorance of all that happened. I was actually in communication with Kronos members throughout the entire escapade.

Edited December 5, 2009 by Jonathan Brookbank

[King Louis the II]

/me starts cleaning the place... I grab the 34353 empty beer bottles, start to turn off the light,. clear some puke in the coach....wait somebody is comming...

/i shout Go to sleep! everybody saida what it should be said...go sleep now...this is closed!

Edited December 5, 2009 by King Louis the II

[Dochartaigh]

Let me go ahead and clear that up for you. TPF had absolutely no plans whatsoever to ever fight on the side of the UjP and had negotiated their way out on day one of the war. As far as I could tell and from what I was told from people in the alliances surrounding the "Karma" War, TORN was the driving force behind the attacks that started the war. The situation is a little bit different in that regard, at least in my opinion.

i heard bout that though nothing was ever made definite that i saw. i also heard about TORN but again with nothing of much substance behind it.

@King Louis- don't forget the overflowing garbage cans full of empty popcorn containers......

[Iotupa]

i heard bout that though nothing was ever made definite that i saw. i also heard about TORN but again with nothing of much substance behind it.

@King Louis- don't forget the overflowing garbage cans full of empty popcorn containers......

I can confirm with completely authority that that negotiation took place between TPF and Sponge, since it was NpO that TPF was fighting, and was then run by the rest of the people on our side.

Unless you're saying nothing was definite about TORN, in which case I don't have first hand knowledge, only secondhand.

[Jgoods45]

So anyways, just to update the peanut gallery so this topic can finally die, Athens and the Knights of Ni! have agreed to a figure on the reparations. An announcement may or may not be made to inform you all of the exact figure.

That is all.

ALSO

Happy Holidays. :3

Edited December 5, 2009 by Jgoods45

[Wilhelm the Demented]

I wasn't saying an ally should drop anyone due to outside pressure. I've been on the bad end of that situation when VE and NpO dropped my alliance because NPO and GGA told them to, so I wouldn't wish that on anyone else. I do think if I was running an alliance that was allied to another alliance that just decided to attack an alliance with no provocation, no declaration of war, and no casus belli (not even a made up one, as is normal here on Planet Bob), I would certainly question the decision making and judgment of that ally, and it would definitely be in doubt as to whether I would keep the treaty.

And I was stating that even though they made a mistake, I still have full faith and trust in them to resolve the issue between themselves and the Knights of Ni; and even more-so that our allegiance to one another is just as strong as it was preceding the incident.

Edit: It seems Jgoods got in here before I could post - so what he said - Happy Holidays.

Edited December 5, 2009 by wilhelm the demented

[Khyber]

This was meant to be private.

Edited December 5, 2009 by Khyber

[Matthew Conrad]

I still fail to see what Bilrow's reasons for calling you out actually have to do with the subject at hand. How would it be any different if it was me or Jonathan Brookbank calling you out, or any other poster from this topic?

What are you talking about, Bilrow never called me out. I called him out.

[Tygaland]

Tyga, may I ask why you were appauled?

Because I do not support raids on aligned nations.

You state rights and wrongs of raiding alliances, as did the NpO, and I know this very well may put me in hot water as the NpO may see it as an attack against them, and yes it does serve my purpose to some extent, but the NpO is now waging are war on an alliance that came to the defense of their ally who was tech raided, and recognized that a state of war existed between them. Was it just the number of Athens members attacking that appauled you? Or simply that alliances were tech raiding other alliances without any DoW?

Hmm, it seems to me that your issue is with GOONS rather than me. As you said, the alliance raided by GOONS acknowledged a state of war with GOONS over the incident and activated treaties. Seeing as I am largely unaware of the chain of events here I'm not sure where you got the impression I supported the raid on an alliance by GOONS. If GOONS did raid another alliance then I condemn it as I condemned Athens' raid on KoN!.

As far as I can tell, it was the people wanting a piece of Athens that made an issue over no DoW, they seemed to say that a simple DoW even if the CB was bogus would have made it more acceptable. Whereas, I condemn raids on aligned nations without reservation and always have. Crap "CB" or not.

You have to understand that I for one may doubt your honesty and the opinions stated by Grub in that Athens topic as I don't see how as long as they are your allies (speaking in the case of GOONS and NpO) they are allowed to approve attacks against alliances, and how if they are not your allies (in the case of Athens and NpO or STA) they are demonized for tech raiding alliances.

GOONS are not my allies and never have been. If you have an issue with Grub's stance I suggest you speak to him about it. If you want to make judgements on my honesty over the Athens incident by transferring someone else's actions to me then I guess that is your prerogative. If you have evidence of me supporting raids on aligned nations then please post it and prove me wrong.

If they tech raided 40, 20 man or less alliances, would that have been acceptable?

No. Again, please point out where I have supported or condoned raids on alliances.

To be honest with GOONS I expected the boys in MK and PC to jump in, maybe Umbrella too. They have never stated how tech raiding alliances was against their moral code, however I was suprised with the NpO. I was told by my friends however that I shouldn't be, but that doesn't change the fact that I was.

I'm not NpO and am not up to speed on why they are involved in this war or how it came to be. Asking me to speak on their behalf is not going to draw me into commenting on an issue I'm unfamiliar with.

I know you haven't done anything to show double standards, but I view Grub has and it has jaded me a bit to this entire arguement heard by your lot against Athens, maybe not rightly so, but that's the reality.

My lot? I speak only for the STA. If you acknowledge I have not displayed a double standard then I guess you'll be retracting the earlier comments questioning my honesty?

[Matthew Conrad]

heh. if that was the case, then basically all those who cried out against NPO/Heg were simply grandstanding with their motivation being a political agenda. Justice would have been served much better if alliances like Sparta, MK, and Athens had first approached NPO/Q to clarify their curiosity and then made a genuine topic if their questions weren't satisfied. I think you and I both know that the Karma war was not about Justice or Changing the world for a better place (hint, tech raiding an alliance does not a better world make).

see, that approach can be done for anything and honestly, from the sounds of it, the above seems to fit just as well as what you wrote.

I'm not going to speak for MK or Athens but you can bet Sparta didn't contact the other side beforehand to see what they had to say. This is not to say we would hesitate to defend our allies, just taking necessary prudence. I imagine the leadership of MK and Athens didn't jump in gun ho either. This could open a whole new can of worms so hit me up on pm if you want to continue on that discussion because I don't feel like derailing this further.

As I have said numerous times throughout this discussion, I also agree that Bilrow's methods may not have been the best. But if you have been around Planet Bob long enough, you know that sometimes to truly get things done, you must bring it to the general public. From the discussion here, I find it unlikely that Athens would have bothered to pay reparations at all had the information not come out that they had attacked an alliance unprovoked in the first place, so I suppose it stands to reason this was, despite the questionable motive, an overall good discussion.

I'm not so naive as to think everything can be automagically solved by private discussions. But, private discussions, in my opinion, should always come first. If it doesn't work, then many times taking it public is necessary. This was not one of those cases. This was Bilrow being... well, Bilrow.

Edited December 5, 2009 by Matthew Conrad

[Khyber]

Stuff

I apologize, that was suppose to be private Tyga, didn't mean to drag it out here. I thought I caught it fast enough.

[Tygaland]

I apologize, that was suppose to be private Tyga, didn't mean to drag it out here. I thought I caught it fast enough.

I is quick.

Anywho, if you want to respond to my post above privately then you are most welcome to do so.

[Alicia]

So anyways, just to update the peanut gallery so this topic can finally die, Athens and the Knights of Ni! have agreed to a figure on the reparations. An announcement may or may not be made to inform you all of the exact figure.

That is all.

ALSO

Happy Holidays. :3

I can't wait to hear peoples reactions to the figures.

[lakerzz8]

I am not as uninformed about the situation as you may think. My inactivity in public quarters during that time should not be taken as ignorance of all that happened. I was actually in communication with Kronos members throughout the entire escapade.

Ah, so talking to only one side and hearing everything from Kronos' perspective makes you a completely informed and unbiased expert capable of passing judgment upon the STA. I'll keep that in mind for the future.

[Tygaland]

I can't wait to hear peoples reactions to the figures.

I can't wait for Bilrow to open a new thread with a new countdown once the amount is published.