Yay Mets and Francesca versus The Sweet Oblivion: Declaration of War

[Gopherbashi]

I tried very, very hard to do things conventionally. After all my efforts failed, I was forced to act as I did, or leave the alliance, which was not an option, because I knew without people like me and NC the alliance would collapse.

It seems to me that you did both, leaving less than two months after TSO did. That mini-exodus certainly didn't help our capabilities, but it didn't exactly cause us to collapse either.

[TheEraser]

I believe nearly all alliances which are formed begin their beginning stages in an alliance and talk to their friends about possibly joining if they feel the same disbelief in an alliance crumbling internally. Seriously, this has happened dozens of times. But no one explicitly took information and leaked it to an enemy. I find Fran's actions more severe, however I don't care too much about TSO's situation right now..they know things could have gone a little smoother, but none of them did what Fran did.

This isn't about who is worse, this is about Fran betraying MCXA then attacking someone for betraying MCXA. If I am a woman beater, I wont beat another woman beater up for beating women. See the hypocrisy? That's all I am touching basis on.

know i get what you're saying, but lets be honest about the split. it wasn't just a few friends leaving to form their own alliance, it was a large majority of the government (sam was a chancellor at the time) and a whole slew of other nations that they specifically recruited. When they decided to leave, they decided not to wait till they had fulfilled their obligations to their current alliance and instead decided to do something that would basically cripple MCXA (who has since made a quality recovery, and are actually significantly better now). They knew what they were doing and they knew what it would do to MCXA, and they did it anyways. They intended to harm MCXA, or at least knew their leaving would create a huge destabilization.

Fran did what she did b/c she was trying to help MCXA. Then again the road to hell is paved with good intentions...

What TSO did was far more than your garden variety spin off alliance, and their intentions make what they did far worse than what Fran did in my eyes, though she was still not right.

[Colonel Radec]

I find it ironic that a spy would find themselves betrayed. Especially in an alliance they eventually betrayed themselves.

[Ejayrazz]

know i get what you're saying, but lets be honest about the split. it wasn't just a few friends leaving to form their own alliance, it was a large majority of the government (sam was a chancellor at the time) and a whole slew of other nations that they specifically recruited. When they decided to leave, they decided not to wait till they had fulfilled their obligations to their current alliance and instead decided to do something that would basically cripple MCXA (who has since made a quality recovery, and are actually significantly better now). They knew what they were doing and they knew what it would do to MCXA, and they did it anyways. They intended to harm MCXA, or at least knew their leaving would create a huge destabilization.

Fran did what she did b/c she was trying to help MCXA. Then again the road to hell is paved with good intentions...

What TSO did was far more than your garden variety spin off alliance, and their intentions make what they did far worse than what Fran did in my eyes, though she was still not right.

Their heart was no longer with MCXA. I am not trying to defend them, but you also could say what they were doing was trying to help MCXA - they would do no good if their heart no longer belonged there.

Anyone can make a good spin on this.

[Francesca]

I think you are overestimating your worth. Obviously we have not collapsed.

KingEd, your Chancellor, left stating that MCXA would be collapsed by December. Bets, anyone?

It seems to me that you did both, leaving less than two months after TSO did. That mini-exodus certainly didn't help our capabilities, but it didn't exactly cause us to collapse either.

We left because you impeached us for holding discussions on getting pro-Karma people into power, after being the most hardworking members of the alliance.

[Lusitan]

I'm the former Minister of Foreign Affairs, a person who was personally betrayed by TSO's actions.

There's an old saying: people in glass houses shouldn't cast the first stone. You could use it.

EDIT:

<Hizzy[NV]> the saying is "people in glass houses shouldn't cast the first stone"

<Lusitan_[TFD]> I translated it directly from portuguese

<Lusitan_[TFD]> sometimes I am only as good as google translator

<Lusitan_[TFD]> or dictionary.com

<Lusitan_[TFD]> sometimes, not even that

Edited October 27, 2009 by Lusitan

[TheEraser]

Their heart was no longer with MCXA. I am not trying to defend them, but you also could say what they were doing was trying to help MCXA - they would do no good if their heart no longer belonged there.

Anyone can make a good spin on this.

i believe their actions speak louder than words on that issue, and their actions are that of 3rd graders who don't quite know what tact is yet. Since then they've done nothing to prove that they have tact, intelligence, or any sense of decency.

As i stated originally, the only thing that sucks about this issue is that Fran doesn't have nukes and a huge warchest.

[Ejayrazz]

i believe their actions speak louder than words on that issue, and their actions are that of 3rd graders who don't quite know what tact is yet. Since then they've done nothing to prove that they have tact, intelligence, or any sense of decency.

As i stated originally, the only thing that sucks about this issue is that Fran doesn't have nukes and a huge warchest.

Which I can understand, like I said I am not here to countlessly defend them. I am here expressing my headache.

[TheEraser]

Which I can understand, like I said I am not here to countlessly defend them. I am here expressing my headache.

yeah i know what you're sayin.

i think its safe to agree that this thread is a train wreck

[TehChron]

yeah i know what you're sayin.

i think its safe to agree that this thread is a train wreck

epic train wreck

you are corrected, good sir

[Gopherbashi]

We left because you impeached us for holding discussions on getting pro-Karma people into power, after being the most hardworking members of the alliance.

Maxfiles was the one who requested your expulsion, not myself - a proceeding which the High Council was required by law to rule upon. It had not come to a decision before your departure, and although you will undoubtedly enjoy accusing me of another conspiracy, the votes were not there for that expulsion to be approved.

And as much as I do enjoy rehashing history with you, Fran, I don't believe you intended for your history with is to be the subject of this topic?

Edited October 27, 2009 by Gopherbashi

[Tygaland]

OK, I'll state now that I have no great love for Sam or how he went about forming TSO and what that did to MCXA. I also had no great love for the MCXA under his rule.

But, I have some questions for Francesca that I hope she can answer for me.

Do you consider Sam and the rest that left to form TSO to have been pro-NPO/Continuum and hence those you opposed when in MCXA?

If so, wouldn't them leaving have opened the door for your reforms if, as you claim, the majority wanted to move away from the NPO politically?

If this is the case then why did you resort to leaking information from MCXA to Vox? To me this shows that your reforms were not that heavily supported by the majority of MCXA membership even after the departure of Sam and his friends to form TSO.

Lastly, how do you see yourself as any better than Sam and the rest that left to form TSO when it appears to me that both you and Sam left to pursue other things in your own self-interest and to the detriment of MCXA? I have no issue with people doing whatever they wish, I'm just interested to hear how you seem to elevate your actions to be ones of honour while denigrating and demanding apologies from others who did things for similar reasons to yourself.

Edited October 27, 2009 by Tygaland

[draggie]

KingEd, your Chancellor, left stating that MCXA would be collapsed by December. Bets, anyone?

Everyone knows hearsay isn't worth the energy used to propogate it. IF you were so central to the stability of the MCXA, wouldn't it stand to reason that we would fall apart almost immediately after you had gone? To be cliche, an alliance is bigger than one person alone. Your ideas weren't embraced. That's all there is to it.

[Asriel Belacqua]

My bets are on Fran. Anyone who thinks I'm joking, well, I'm not.

Okay, while I do not agree with some of the stuff Fran has done, I'm getting sick of everyone bringing up the fact that she spied on MCXA. Guess what? You know all those TWiPS you enjoyed? You know all those issues of the Tattler you all enjoyed? They all came from spies like Fran, some of them with similar stories who didn't want to come out about it. So what if she was in the alliance before Vox, maybe she disagreed with their direction and wanted to try and do something to help. And guess what? She did do something to help. The TSI idiots are gone, and MCXA are better with out them. Sure, this is just one big chance at attention whoring, but could we keep it at that? You all enjoyed the spying, and then when you find out who one of the spies were, you all !@#$%* at her for spying. The only people who have any right to !@#$%* at her for that might be MCXA, and that's about it.

And that is why this very handsome gentleman is widely accepted in my alliance.

[Francesca]

Maxfiles was the one who requested your expulsion, not myself - a proceeding which the High Council was required by law to rule upon. It had not come to a decision before your departure, and although you will undoubtedly enjoy accusing me of another conspiracy, the votes were not there for that expulsion to be approved.

And as much as I do enjoy rehashing history with you, Fran, I don't believe you intended for your history with is to be the subject of this topic?

I was referring to you collectively. Please do not insult me, responding to my posts is sufficient. Furthermore, once I was impeached I decided I couldn't be bothered with the alliance. nc1701 had already left and the rest of my friends were about to leave too. Whether you voted to expel me was irrelevant. I really didn't give a $%&@.

OK, I'll state now that I have no great love for Sam or how he went about forming TSO and what that did to MCXA. I also had no great love for the MCXA under his rule.

But, I have some questions for Francesca that I hope she can answer for me.

Certainly, it would be my pleasure, Tygaland.

Do you consider Sam and the rest that left to form TSO to have been pro-NPO/Continuum and hence those you opposed when in MCXA?

They were indeed pro-NPO when they were in MCXA. I failed to really realise the implications of this, and fought since roughly December last year to move the alliance away from NPO, even when they were still there.

If so, wouldn't them leaving have opened the door for your reforms if, as you claim, the majority wanted to move away from the NPO politically?

That is correct, it's one of the reasons I joined Vox in the first place, because I recognised that there was an opportunity for reform. It doesn't make TSO's actions any less despicable.

If this is the case then why did you resort to leaking information from MCXA to Vox? To me this shows that your reforms were not that heavily supported by the majority of MCXA membership even after the departure of Sam and his friends to form TSO.

There were still pro-NPO people in MCXA who were suppressing democracy. I liked them a lot better than TSO, but nevertheless.

Lastly, how do you see yourself as any better than Sam and the rest that left to form TSO when it appears to me that both you and Sam left to pursue other things in their own self-interest and to the detriment of MCXA? I have no issue with people doing whatever they wish, I'm just interested to hear how you seem to elevate your actions to be ones of honour while denigrating and demanding apologies from others who did things for similar reasons to yourself.

Unlike TSO, I remained in the alliance (even though it was dying) and did everything I could to try and save it.

[Francesca]

Everyone knows hearsay isn't worth the energy used to propogate it. IF you were so central to the stability of the MCXA, wouldn't it stand to reason that we would fall apart almost immediately after you had gone? To be cliche, an alliance is bigger than one person alone. Your ideas weren't embraced. That's all there is to it.

My ideas were embraced by all the people who left in the second and third exoduses. I was important to MCXA's stability and you would've benefitted if I had remained, along with all the others who I left with after our impeachments. But ultimately MCXA was going to collapse anyway, and I couldn't see any reason to remain, when we were so unwanted.

[Jyrinx]

There were still pro-NPO people in MCXA who were suppressing democracy. I liked them a lot better than TSO, but nevertheless.

Who exactly where all these people that were still left and exactly how were they still suppressing democracy in MCXA after the TSO exodus? How are you so sure what the MCXA membership wanted and felt? Do you still think that MCXA is suppressing democracy and if so, again how?

Edited October 27, 2009 by Jyrinx

[Eden Taylor]

Scum is scum is scum. TSO, have fun with these vermin.

[Francesca]

Who exactly where all these people that were still left and exactly how were they still suppressing democracy in MCXA after the TSO exodus?

Fresh, Gopher, bryn, KingEd, NeuralLink... I could list them all but I really can't be bothered.

How are you so sure what the MCXA membership wanted and feels?

I spoke to them on a regular basis on IRC, or read their posts on the forums.

Do you still think that MCXA is suppressing democracy and if so, again how?

I don't know, and I don't care, really.

[Joe Kremlin]

There were still pro-NPO people in MCXA who were suppressing democracy. I liked them a lot better than TSO, but nevertheless.

I really don't think you understand how democracy works.

Unlike TSO, I remained in the alliance (even though it was dying) and did everything I could to try and save it.

You helped the side that attacked it.

[Jyrinx]

Fresh, Gopher, bryn, KingEd, NeuralLink... I could list them all but I really can't be bothered.

Ok, perhaps you already answered the second part earlier and I freely admit that I could have missed it in this fast moving thread, but what exactly were they doing to suppress democracy?

[Tygaland]

They were indeed pro-NPO when they were in MCXA. I failed to really realise the implications of this, and fought since roughly December last year to move the alliance away from NPO, even when they were still there.

I knew they were, just my e-lawyerness needed you to state it.

That is correct, it's one of the reasons I joined Vox in the first place, because I recognised that there was an opportunity for reform. It doesn't make TSO's actions any less despicable.

I already stated I do not support TSO's manner of formation but it is not really the issue I'm getting at. My point was that, as you have claimed, the majority of MCXA wanted to move away from the NPO then why the need to join Vox once TSO had formed? Surely, based on what you have said that their departure would have opened the door to a seamless transition based on the majority you claimed to have. I don't understand why someone who had majority support would need to resort to leaking confidential information from their alliance.

There were still pro-NPO people in MCXA who were suppressing democracy. I liked them a lot better than TSO, but nevertheless.

How were they suppressing democracy? I'm unfamiliar with MCXA's democratic process so am more than willing to being informed how such a process was suppressed against the will of the majority of members.

Unlike TSO, I remained in the alliance (even though it was dying) and did everything I could to try and save it.

Remaining in the alliance to leak confidential information is hardly a feather in your cap, to be honest. It appears to me you did everything you could to get done what you thought needed to be done regardless of what the rest of the membership wanted and when you couldn't get it done you left. That is how it appears to me and to me that makes you not much better than Sam in the whole mess.

[draggie]

I don't know, and I don't care, really.

Then, isn't this whole thing pointless? If you don't care, why bother?

[Francesca]

I really don't think you understand how democracy works.

I really don't care whether you think I understand democracy or not.

You helped the side that attacked it.

I joined Viridia, the alliance I'd been pushing hardest for MCXA to MADP with, and then MCXA attacked us, not the other way round. I never declared wars on MCXA nations, ever.

Edit: I am tired, I'm going to stop responding to this thread for a while. Cya y'all in a bit.

Edited October 27, 2009 by Francesca

[TehChron]

You helped the side that attacked it.

To be fair, honoring treaties tends to lead the folks following them getting attacked. If Fran's Vox contacts were able to get MXCA let off easily as a result, wouldnt that be helping them?