Overrated Alliance Government

[janax]

As the Emperor of an alliance of haters, I can confirm that not even Argent hates Archon.

Blue though...well...different story )):

Edited October 9, 2009 by janax

[Blue Lightning]

Blue though...

...well...

different story )):

Obligatory text.

[Doitzel]

The opportunity hasn't presented itself for us since WUT.  You can't really infer that from our history.

I believe, also interestingly enough, that we were ready to roll on day one of the Karma war, but we just had a few speed bumps.  Even still, the choice was made overall for our alliance.  I'll tell you that it was probably mostly made in anger, not pragmatism in that case, though.  

Edit: Ha, I can't believe I called it an "opportunity". See, look at my mindset? I'm looking forward to it.

Yes, but you were not ready to roll on DDay -1 and were putting pressure on your allies who were key members of the coalition to stop the war from happening. Considering how hard I worked to bring about both mentioned wars and how in both you were an annoying wild card constantly whining about peace and threatening (even if not directly) to enter on either side it's not so difficult to understand my frustration, is it?

As for the opportunity presenting itself... I won't turn this into a discussion of your involvement in UJW because I really don't feel like arguing with your entire alliance again, and the case of electron sponge v. Snake in the Grass has sufficiently covered that ground.

I don't really care about the past. It won't be an issue in the future. We once believed we could hold together two increasingly hostile groups of allies, and act as the rope across the chasm.

No longer.

I'm sure it had nothing to do with having very close allies on both sides of the war and trying to mediate talks to prevent any war at all....

Oh give me a break! You make it sound like you didn't very purposefully sign and hold those treaties. You're not some poor victim of your own foreign ministry.

(You referring to TOP, since I know Heracles isn't in that alliance and might whine about my word choice.)

I might respond to the rest of you later but don't count on it because there'll be 50 new replies about how dumb I am by the time I check.

[Kiss Goodbye]

We did 'purposefully sign and hold those treaties'. And we believed that we were respected enough by all of them to hold the peace together. Which is why we held talks. We did so in good faith. One group of our allies did respect us, came to the talks willing to see a peaceful solution. They returned the respect we have always shown them. The other side did not.

We are not bridging enemies anymore.

That's all that can be said of the past.

[Blue Lightning]

Yes, but you were not ready to roll on DDay -1 and were putting pressure on your allies who were key members of the coalition to stop the war from happening. Considering how hard I worked to bring about both mentioned wars and how in both you were an annoying wild card constantly whining about peace and threatening (even if not directly) to enter on either side it's not so difficult to understand my frustration, is it?

It's understandable but we came through for you in the end, right? And I know how much you enjoy giving yourself too much credit so I'll leave it at that.

Oh give me a break! You make it sound like you didn't very purposefully sign and hold those treaties. You're not some poor victim of your own foreign ministry.

We made the mistake of trusting people we couldn't trust and while I don't regret it (because we might not be where we are today if we hadn't), our uncomfortable position in the Karma war was a by-product. You're giving us too much credit if you think we did it all on purpose. We didn't enjoy the Karma war.

[youwish959]

We did 'purposefully sign and hold those treaties'. And we believed that we were respected enough by all of them to hold the peace together. Which is why we held talks. We did so in good faith. One group of our allies did respect us, came to the talks willing to see a peaceful solution. They returned the respect we have always shown them. The other side did not.

We are not bridging enemies anymore.

That's all that can be said of the past.

In that case, you all are just frankly dumb.

[Arcturus Jefferson]

It's understandable but we came through for you in the end, right?

Doitzel's not in IRON.

We made the mistake of trusting people we couldn't trust and while I don't regret it (because we might not be where we are today if we hadn't), our uncomfortable position in the Karma war was a by-product. You're giving us too much credit if you think we did it all on purpose. We didn't enjoy the Karma war.

That's funny, you came out ahead by a country mile.

[RandomInterrupt]

We canceled because Sponge hit FIST. That's all. We hold nothing against Polar, as far as we're concerned the situation was resolved when Sponge left the NpO.

I almost don't want to bring this up as it's a few pages back now, but in one of the marathon threads that occurred after the VE canceled on Sponge, Ardus stated very plainly that he if fact did not cancel due to FIST. Rather he canceled because of our recent history of abusing and mistreating our allies. He also stated that had we not been so mean to our other allies recently, we may have been able to work out the FIST issue.

Anyone with a brain now realizes that we were not abusing or mistreating our allies before that incident. The VE was just one of the many alliances that believed that the NPO's people told them to believe. The reason I quoted this is to point out why I distrust the VE. Either you are lying right now, or Ardus was lying back then. So you either were led by a liar or you are led by one now.

So, even if the VE decides to pin the blame on Ardus, I still have a very clear memory of Mr. Cornelius sitting on IRC repeating the stories about myself personally as told to him by the NPO. It was very disappointing. And I have yet to see, in this thread or anywhere, the VE accept and admit that they they took part in the smear campaign against Polar, lied about it, and helped isolate the one alliance that had done more to help them than anyone else. I guess an apology would be nice too.

Also lol sam.

[Arwen]

Sponge is gone and the New Polar Order has a new set of individuals in governement. From what I read most of these past events that are being argued happened over a year ago. I'm sure most alliances, including Polar, have changed considerably with revolving membership and new people getting involved.

In your opinion, has the New Polar Order changed for the better? How do they treat their allies today? What is their attitude toward other alliances? Are they respectable to other alliances? If not, who?

Edited October 11, 2009 by Arwen

[Khyber]

That's funny, you came out ahead by a country mile.

All top 4 alliances didn't get involved in the war that much. Sparta has suffered more post war then due to the war due to booting out members that didn't fight. MHA went in on IRON, and that was a good fight, but they didn't engage that heavily. On the day we joined the war we had had more declarations then Sparta in week 2 of the war. NpO attacked I forget who, and walked away. Our country mile is due to both MHA and Sparta having a hard time growing post war, or not growing that quickly. We have been gaining on Sparta around 300k to 500k per month since the end of the war to give you an example, something I sure as hell didn't predict.

It was not fun because we had to watch two allies of ours burn, IRON and OG. Bonds between us and another ally got cut and deep distrust still exist in TOP today towards NPO. Relations were strained temporarly when we saw Gremlins and FCC attack IRON. People were pissed, tensions were high, and TOP as a whole seriously felt like it was in a no win situation, frustrated and angry seeing their friends fighting eachother.

We $%&@ed up. While everyone was pointing to the signs of war, TOP thought it could keep the peace. But stating that we did what was best to come out ahead, you would have to ignore the fact that we did engage, no matter how limited, and that a better come out ahead plan would be us not engageing.

[LiquidMercury]

TOP has always maintained that we could keep the two parties away from each others throats, and for quite some time it most definitely happened. Unfortunately it wasn't meant to last, hopes don't necessarily float boats though. TOP most definitely was put in a hard position (mainly by me personally) and blasting us for trying to handle the situation in a manner that necessitated speed from an alliance that has never been known to make quick on the fly decisions and never will, is a tad bit unfair in my opinion. It'd be similar to asking Gremlins to choose between TOP and MHA, [ooc] America to choose between Canada and UK [ooc]. All and all a crapshoot. Could it have been avoided a while back by just eliminating ties to one side or another? Sure, but dropping relations between two very close and long-term allies would never have been done realistically by anyone in my opinion.

[Arcturus Jefferson]

But stating that we did what was best to come out ahead, you would have to ignore the fact that we did engage, no matter how limited, and that a better come out ahead plan would be us not engageing.

Only if you only look at pixels. And (overlooking tired rhetoric to the contrary) you (or at least those in charge in your organization) are better players than that.

[Some-Guy]

Look, lets all just agree that TOP sucks, needs rolling and that we're all going to man up and make good on that agreement.

[PhysicsJunky]

TOP has always maintained that we could keep the two parties away from each others throats, and for quite some time it most definitely happened... Sure, but dropping relations between two very close and long-term allies would never have been done realistically by anyone in my opinion.

I think the problem here stems less from your inclination to sit out the war as best as possible, and your consequential rise to the top, because outside of the normal levels of trolling that accompany any decision like that it was understandable, but from peripheral policies. The problem was that your allies on either side were not necessarily fighting just each other. Thus in any attempts you made to help out your allies on the losing side were not being made largely at the expense of alliances you had no ties with.

The IRON case is the easiest example, a lot of the damage the Karma side absorbed in that war was not by your allies the Gramlins who were well matched in their strength bracket, but by alliances like Fark whom you had no strong ties with. Any lobbying you made for the war to end in a white peace for example could thusly be viewed as a hostile act by Fark as it not only is pulling their ability to ask for reps or favorable terms out from underneath them, but you're also fundamentally changing the dynamic of the war. If one side knows that they're very likely to get white peace they're much more likely to burn immediately through their warchests and nukes and then just throw up their arms when convenient, being able to retire with white peace is in some regard a force multiplier, because the attacker needs to be more careful and hold funds and nukes back for a prolonged conflict. It even pulls away the good will they'd earn normally by offering a white peace if they choose to, because it's no longer really their decision.

I wasn't there so I don't know how much lobbying you did, and I hope I framed that in a fair way. I only know what complaints I've heard and perhaps can communicate them in a less vitriolic manner. I know I've certainly done things in life trying to help a friend out only to find out later I could have handled it a lot better, or at least with less collateral damage.

Edited October 11, 2009 by PhysicsJunky

[LiquidMercury]

I think the problem here stems less from your inclination to sit out the war as best as possible, and your consequential rise to the top, because outside of the normal levels of trolling that accompany any decision like that it was understandable, but from peripheral policies. The problem was that your allies on either side were not necessarily fighting just each other. Thus in any attempts you made to help out your allies on the losing side were not being made largely at the expense of alliances you had no ties with.

The IRON case is the easiest example, a lot of the damage the Karma side absorbed in that war was not by your allies the Gramlins who were well matched in their strength bracket, but by alliances like Fark whom you had no strong ties with. Any lobbying you made for the war to end in a white peace for example could thusly be viewed as a hostile act by Fark as it not only is pulling their ability to ask for reps or favorable terms out from underneath them, but you're also fundamentally changing the dynamic of the war. If one side knows that they're very likely to get white peace they're much more likely to burn immediately through their warchests and nukes and then just throw up their arms when convenient, being able to retire with white peace is in some regard a force multiplier, because the attacker needs to be more careful and hold funds and nukes back for a prolonged conflict. It even pulls away the good will they'd earn normally by offering a white peace if they choose to, because it's no longer really their decision.

I wasn't there so I don't know how much lobbying you did, and I hope I framed that in a fair way. I only know what complaints I've heard and perhaps can communicate them in a less vitriolic manner. I know I've certainly done things in life trying to help a friend out only to find out later I could have handled it a lot better, or at least with less collateral damage.

Fark chose to offer white peace on their own (in terms of reps not beer reviews ) and if you do not recall IRON did not receive total white peace due to RoK wanting terms. IRON thought they might get white peace as was lobbied by Gremlins, however after a short time it was revealed that that would not be the case. My lobbying of white peace was for the benefit of all parties which was made quite clear in private channels and all parties are indeed aware of that.

Citadel as a whole could of stayed completely out of this war should it have chosen but it did not. If I recall correctly TOP went in via OUT and I know Gremlins/FCC went in via an OAP (yay color treaties), Umbrella doing something similar. Citadel could have quite easily stayed out of it all, yet we all felt the need to act, TOP unfortunately was put between a rock and a hard place while all other citadel alliances were given comparably easier decisions I would argue as far as choosing a side. The difficulty of the decision which I put TOP in (keep in mind I was at Gremlins at the time and running Karma independently of any AA) most definitely would not allow for a quick decision. When the decision was made, the damage output of TOP (even non-nuclear for the most part) outweighed that of other alliances, and managed to get 3 very quick surrenders thus freeing up NS to be put elsewhere which made my life much easier as the person organizing the military aspects of Karma.

Think about it, think of your two closest allies of all time, think if they went to war. Would you be able to choose a side so readily and quickly. Keep in mind this happened to TOP twice in the war, once when NPO decided to place themselves against the world and giving TOP a slap in the face during peace negotiations, and then again when Gremlins hit IRON. I do not forsee any alliance there that calls their allies true friends, not just pieces of paper to be shuffled around, capable of making the decision any quicker then TOP did. Was there maybe a way that TOP could of gone in on other fringe areas on maybe both sides? Yes. Would the rest of CN be giving TOP a hard time about hitting both sides? Yes.

[PhysicsJunky]

Fark chose to offer white peace on their own (in terms of reps not beer reviews ) and if you do not recall IRON did not receive total white peace due to RoK wanting terms. IRON thought they might get white peace as was lobbied by Gremlins, however after a short time it was revealed that that would not be the case. My lobbying of white peace was for the benefit of all parties which was made quite clear in private channels and all parties are indeed aware of that.

I'm only sharing some opinions I've heard a lot privately because I'm relatively free to express them where others are sometimes not (expect for AJ who is more than able to heckle you until you want crush us ). I don't have a horse in the this race so I'm not going to argue what was or wasn't said. Actually I'd be fine with you guys going around bruising feelings because it can only expand my own alliance's membership, so I hope you can believe me when I say I'm just trying to help. You can denounce those opinions and just carry on or try to figure out what caused them but if there is anything I've learned in CN is that opinions matter a whole heck of a lot, right or wrong, and with a little effort they're much easier to repair early than if left to fester.

[Blue Lightning]

LM knows what he is talking about. His perspective on the Karma war is is second to none in terms of accuracy considering his crucial role in the Karma coalition throughout it.

Also, for the umpteenth time, we didn't lobby for IRON to get peace. We might have mentioned that we weren't exactly chuffed with the war when Gremlins and FCC (our Citadel allies) declared war on them. And we did keep a close eye on events throughout, but beyond stating the obvious (that IRON were our allies and close friends and that we didn't want them destroyed), I'd like to invite anybody with evidence that we overstepped our bounds to help get IRON peace to come forward and show that evidence.

Fact is, we were in no position to throw our support behind IRON because we were busy on our fronts of the war. Doing so would have undermined the same side that we were fighting for and specifically worked against our friends and allies who were fighting them directly. If this is one of the complaints you've heard, I would seriously question the credibility of whoever is airing their complaints to you. From experience, such misinformation is usually rooted in either a fundamental lack of knowledge of what actually happened or a deliberate intent to damage our reputation (often both).

[LiquidMercury]

I'm only sharing some opinions I've heard a lot privately because I'm relatively free to express them where others are sometimes not (expect for AJ who is more than able to heckle you until you want crush us ). I don't have a horse in the this race so I'm not going to argue what was or wasn't said. Actually I'd be fine with you guys going around bruising feelings because it can only expand my own alliance's membership, so I hope you can believe me when I say I'm just trying to help. You can denounce those opinions and just carry on or try to figure out what caused them but if there is anything I've learned in CN is that opinions matter a whole heck of a lot, right or wrong, and with a little effort they're much easier to repair early than if left to fester.

I'm not against differing opinions, just misinformation. As the person who ran Karma forces, as the person who negotiated peace for IRON, as the person who was gov in Gremlins during IRON peace talks, and as the person who was the communication line between karma forces and TOP at the time, I can tell you that TOP simply expressed their opinion that they were highly pissed off with:

a. Me

b. Gremlins/FCC hitting IRON on an optional aggression pact

c. Me again

and that they would prefer white peace over strict terms (as any good ally would beseech another ally at war with them).

The main issues at hand during IRON peace talks was RoK wanting reps. It was settled out pretty amicably in oh yah my office #liquidmercury. TOP government was there as RoK had heard (from me) how pissed TOP was and we looked at as an opportunity to clear the air for all parties. That was done, peace was had on the IRON front, we went back to blowing !@#$ up on other fronts.

RoK acted admirably and were instrumental in winning Karma and I will forever express my gratitude to them. Fark, FCC, and Gremlins all offered up no reps for IRON which I believe was honorably by all parties.

TOP was put in a crappy position by me and I will forever ask their forgiveness. Any and all disgruntlement at TOP can be placed solely on myself while I was Wrath of Karma. I knew what had to be done to win the war, which meant Gremlins taking on IRON's top tier which was the only fighting force capable of doing so. TOP is taking the PR hit for the bad situation I had to put them in, one in which they handled with great care, yet were left with a crap shoot decision.

I yet again put forth the query to any and all, could you have done better if you originally were the negotiators to try and bring about peace and were slapped in the face during that and then again by your two closest allies going to war?

[Khyber]

Only if you only look at pixels. And (overlooking tired rhetoric to the contrary) you (or at least those in charge in your organization) are better players than that.

Awww how come no one remembers I lead the alliance for 2 months

Frankly I don't think I can convience you that your view of us is incorrect if you believe what we did we did to be number 1. I'm sorry you feel that way, but short of revealing our forums in their entirety and every log that took place there is no way I can show you that you are wrong.

Just so you know our leadership at the time consisted of Dr. Dan who had served the term before and was part of Feanor, and to a lesser extent Saber's, plan to leave Q and start a new bloc (it was being called New Block at the time), Someguy who is in my mind one of the most idealist TOPpers , definatly not a major realpolitik person, and lastly Crymson, perhaps the most pragmatic of the three. Dan was the most active leading up to the war, hence his involvement in the mediation talks.

I think Polar played it far better then we did. We should have waited until OMFG attacked Umbrella and just attacked OMFG and called it a day. However, anger and the list of allies we had in Karma weighed heavily into our decision. On a membership level we are closest to the Gremlins, at the time several ex TOPpers were there, and we had several ex Gremlins, and our boards had a lot of member to member conversation, so you had another major pull. It wasn't the smartest politically or in terms of being number one in my opinion, but I feel it was the right way to go in the end, for the internal health of Paradoxia, and for our allies, even those on the other side of the war.

[PhysicsJunky]

Awww how come no one remembers I lead the alliance for 2 months

I remember you being important once, even if nobody else does

Don't mind AJ too much, he's still a little raw. The last two times he's gone from being government to leaving an alliance has centered around drama falling out from something that TOP has later gone back and admitted "could have been handled better". He doesn't hate you guys, at least not across the board, so much as he has a penchant for grumbling about it.

[Kaiser]

Think about it, think of your two closest allies of all time, think if they went to war. Would you be able to choose a side so readily and quickly. Keep in mind this happened to TOP twice in the war, once when NPO decided to place themselves against the world and giving TOP a slap in the face during peace negotiations, and then again when Gremlins hit IRON. I do not forsee any alliance there that calls their allies true friends, not just pieces of paper to be shuffled around, capable of making the decision any quicker then TOP did. Was there maybe a way that TOP could of gone in on other fringe areas on maybe both sides? Yes. Would the rest of CN be giving TOP a hard time about hitting both sides? Yes.

I still think we should have declared war on both sides, it would have been really fun. Oh well, there's always the next war.

[Arcturus Jefferson]

Awww how come no one remembers I lead the alliance for 2 months

Frankly I don't think I can convience you that your view of us is incorrect if you believe what we did we did to be number 1. I'm sorry you feel that way, but short of revealing our forums in their entirety and every log that took place there is no way I can show you that you are wrong.

I don't think you set all this up, of course not. But you guys need to stop whining about how hard this war was for you when it wasn't in terms of combat and it wasn't in terms of geopolitical situation. You essentially won this war so you can drop the martyr act LiquidMercury is loaning you.

Edited October 12, 2009 by Arcturus Jefferson

[Khyber]

I don't think you set all this up, of course not. But you guys need to stop whining about how hard this war was for you when it wasn't in terms of combat and it wasn't in terms of geopolitical situation. You essentially won this war so you can drop the martyr act LiquidMercury is loaning you.

This is true. Many other alliances suffered more in terms of combat and politically.

It has though, put us in a situation that we are not comfortable in, and that is being on top. I think as a whole we aren't used to this much attention. We often come out trying to make everyone like us, and don't understand why people hate us. Yah I know it seems like some silly celeb crying about the fame he is getting at the same time enjoying the privilages of the millions he is making, and the special treatment he gets everywhere he goes, but people like to whine, and TOP does it just as good if not better then others

The major difficulty we had this war was seeing our allies like IRON and OG get hit hard, and have other allies fighting them. And many would trade winning this war if it meant that our allies didn't suffer, and we didn't get the strain on relationship that we did with some of our other allies, since this is not our version of winning. TOP's membership and leadership would be far happier being 5th or 6th with enough political influence to protect it's allies and itself and the spot light on someone else. I know I look forward to the day MHA, Sparta, NpO, and IRON all are above us.

[Dr. Dan]

I don't think you set all this up, of course not. But you guys need to stop whining about how hard this war was for you when it wasn't in terms of combat and it wasn't in terms of geopolitical situation. You essentially won this war so you can drop the martyr act LiquidMercury is loaning you.

But at what price Arcturus, at what price? 

You imply we should enjoy it because we "came ahead by a country mile".  If geopolitical position were all that were important, you wouldn't here LM defending us with aspects that have nothing to do with that.  There's something "behind" the position itself, which is what he's getting at.  There are some emotional connections there.  I would hardly call it whining since he is responding to a position which you commented on in the first place.

In other words, we're not freaking robots.  Also, hello.  How are you?

[Arcturus Jefferson]

But at what price Arcturus, at what price? 

You imply we should enjoy it because we "came ahead by a country mile".  If geopolitical position were all that were important, you wouldn't here LM defending us with aspects that have nothing to do with that.  There's something "behind" the position itself, which is what he's getting at.  There are some emotional connections there.  I would hardly call it whining since he is responding to a position which you commented on in the first place.

I guess what I'm saying is I'd be more sympathetic to your viewpoint if one of the sides you guys were so upset about didn't prove that they completely deserved what was coming to them and more.

In other words, we're not freaking robots.  Also, hello.  How are you?

Bitter and acrimonious as usual. Congrats on your election, by the way.