Athens Announcement

[mhawk]

You forgot the part where TPF slipped up and proved our point.

Mhawk =/= Desperado.

[AgentofChaos]

You forgot the part where TPF slipped up and proved our point.

I saw one low level member gibber something about talking to one another. Did I miss somebody more important say something? Cause I'm pretty sure he wouldn't know !@#$ aside from they converse. (Mind, this is about clarification, not me tryin to be an $@! or something. I just saying things assish ways )

[Augustus Autumn]

You forgot the part where TPF slipped up and proved our point.

You didn't deny the course of events outlined in the piece you quoted in the least.

Frankly, Londo, you were better than this. You could have canceled a treaty that had rotted on the vine for months (I say this based on the consistent inactivity demonstrated in the embassies I personally oversaw both at your alliance and at The Sasori Initiative's on the part of your alliance) but instead you took a cheap shot in an attempt to build up moral indignation in your favor. Problem is the attempt backfired/didn't evolve into a hailfest and now both you and your alliance are being incredibly cryptic when called to task on the point. Many many others have called you out over the supposed "secret" information which happened to be common knowledge ahead of time - I don't see this carrying much weight.

If you have evidence it's very much in your interest to show it at this time - you created this topic of discussion so you clearly desired some attention. Give the masses what they want or risk ending up looking the fool for this.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Tokugawa Mitsukuni

[Reign of HavoK]

Mhawk =/= Desperado.

I don't believe he said that Mhawk proved our point... He said that TPF did... And unless I missed something, Desperado = TPF... He made a statement which, go figure, proved the point we were trying to get across. The same point you keep dodging

[citizenkane]

Good on you Athens

Its a shame there's the usual crowd to winge and baww about though.

[mhawk]

I don't believe he said that Mhawk proved our point... He said that TPF did... And unless I missed something, Desperado = TPF... He made a statement which, go figure, proved the point we were trying to get across. The same point you keep dodging

The point that TPF is allied to TSI? That is hardly confirmation that shuru did anything close to what londo claims.

[Alicia]

I saw one low level member gibber something about talking to one another. Did I miss somebody more important say something? Cause I'm pretty sure he wouldn't know !@#$ aside from they converse.

Actually according to the (OOC: TPF wiki) Desperado is a Magistrate which is not a low level member.

Even so, Londo does need to present some evidence.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Alicia

[citizenkane]

Londo does not need to give any evidence.

The only reason that your asking for it is to compromise him and get revenge for the Karma war

[hizzy]

I swear people are asking for evidence like it's going out of style.

Great thread though, guys, keep it up.

[Alicia]

Londo does not need to give any evidence.

The only reason that your asking for it is to compromise him and get revenge for the Karma war

I really, really hope that wasn't directed at me.

[medtech]

Londo does not need to give any evidence.

I agree 100%

Altho it's an evil ploy to keep this thread alive just for the fun of it

[Augustus Autumn]

Londo does not need to give any evidence.

1. You claim you have evidence.

2. People ask you for evidence.

3. You become evasive and cryptic.

4. ?????????

5. Profit!

The only reason that your asking for it is to compromise him and get revenge for the Karma war

Revenge for what exactly?

[Shep309]

Blamestorming, let's have a blamestorming session

ummmm

I blame citizenkane

[Phoenix2392]

Revenge for all the ice cream we stole from you of course! Where have you been!?

[citizenkane]

1. You claim you have evidence.

2. People ask you for evidence.

3. You become evasive and cryptic.

4. ?????????

5. Profit!

Revenge for what exactly?

1: "I" have not claimed "I" have any evidence

2: "Evidence" can be faked. and taken in different ways, on both sides. I propose that if Londo posted his "evidence" you would take it, that he would not be right. How can he be right when your on the defensive side?

3: 2 posts and your calling me evasive and cryptic? All I'm trying to do is stop this thread from escalating into something more

4: Question Mark X 9 does not make much sense to me, care to explain?

5: So what are you wanting? Reps from athens? Dont make me laugh.

Revenge for the fact that you lost the game.

FYI That comment was directed at everyone who has asked for evidence

[medtech]

1: "I" have not claimed "I" have any evidence

2: "Evidence" can be faked. and taken in different ways, on both sides. I propose that if Londo posted his "evidence" you would take it, that he would not be right. How can he be right when your on the defensive side?

3: 2 posts and your calling me evasive and cryptic? All I'm trying to do is stop this thread from escalating into something more

4: Question Mark X 9 does not make much sense to me, care to explain?

5: So what are you wanting? Reps from athens? Dont make me laugh.

Revenge for the fact that you lost the game.

FYI That comment was directed at everyone who has asked for evidence

I think I like u

[D34th]

Let me see if I understood this mess.

1- Londo told a secret/info for an TSI gov

2- This gov told this secret/info for another ally of TSI

3- Londo got pissed and canceled the treaty.

So Londo when people tell you secrets/infos you keep it for yourself and don't tell for your allies?

Edited August 31, 2009 by D34th

[Augustus Autumn]

1: "I" have not claimed "I" have any evidence

2: "Evidence" can be faked. and taken in different ways, on both sides. I propose that if Londo posted his "evidence" you would take it, that he would not be right. How can he be right when your on the defensive side?

3: 2 posts and your calling me evasive and cryptic? All I'm trying to do is stop this thread from escalating into something more

4: Question Mark X 9 does not make much sense to me, care to explain?

5: So what are you wanting? Reps from athens? Dont make me laugh.

Revenge for the fact that you lost the game.

FYI That comment was directed at everyone who has asked for evidence

The "I" was intended to be Londo, my apologies for the confusion and my lack of clarity. Also, I was not saying that you personally were being evasive - that was directed at Londo and Athens. Again, my apologies for the misunderstanding.

As for evidence being faked or whatnot, what is presented can be looked at by multiple persons and then discussed. Claiming you have something damning, then avoiding and evading requests to present it, indicates that said evidence either 1) does not exist or 2) is not in fact iron-clad and damning. If someone wants to cancel a treaty that's well and good but it doesn't have to be made into some grand and evil scheme.

As for revenge, that's not something I'm particularly big on myself.

OOC: The format my response was placed in is part of an inside joke. I'll explain it sometime on IRC or something.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Tokugawa Mitsukuni

[JackSkellington]

Let me see if I understood this mess.

1- Londo told a secret/info for an TSI gov

2- This gov told this secret/info for another ally of TSI

3- Londo got pissed and canceled the treaty.

So Londo when people tell you secrets/infos you keep it for yourself and don't tell for your allies?

Don't talk about that man. You'll confuse the masses. Hypocrisy is a word not in everyone's vocabulary.

[Alicia]

FYI That comment was directed at everyone who has asked for evidence

I ask for evidence yet I would like to think that I am both a friend of Londo and of Athens. I still ask for evidence because without it I can not know whether or not the allegations are true.

[Jack Diorno]

I have some time now, and its obvious some people are mixing a few things up so forgive me for going backwards a bit.

That incident being...?

As noted in the OP, TSI abused our trust on 2 seperate occasisions, the menotah incident was the 2nd time, TSI may not of been behind it, but granted what happened the first time around and the closeness of TPF and TSI we assumed it.

Yes yes assumptions are bad, it was logical due to past events.

Londo's post here does not relate to Menotah, this is the first incident that occured. Menotah is basically a little pebble on the side of the road that wouldn't of meant anything by itself, its insignificant.

I have [OOC]logs I could dump[/OOC]. They prove that I told Shuru something that had spread like wildfire throughout the backwoods of Planet Bob one day later, so much that a fellow allied alliance leader came to me and told me what was going down. I went back through all my logs pretty frantically, trying to see where I had said what I was accused of saying. I found them (mostly complete, if slightly distorted, you know how rumors are), in a query log with Shuru. Mhawk and Shuru later claimed that Shuru had not told Mhawk, but rather Mary the Fantabulous, and Mary had told him. Problem is, nothing I said in Mary's presence jives with the rumors that were going around. I looked carefully over every log I could find, didn't jive at all.

We let it go. We weren't completely sure what had happened. It looked bad, but Shuru protested her innocence and we figured maybe something had been said somewhere that I hadn't found. We let it go. Then the same darn thing happened a month later with the Menotah incident, again with me telling Shuru something and Mhawk immediately taking it to the OWF. Proof? No. It's not proof. It's circumstantial evidence. It could be wrong, but we're pretty sure it's about right. It was then that our gov decided to cancel with TSI; we have only now just gotten around to it. Anyone who has served in our government at any level knows how slowly we move when it comes to canceling treaties.

Read^ the first half is not talking about the Menotah incident.

You didn't deny the course of events outlined in the piece you quoted in the least.

Frankly, Londo, you were better than this. You could have canceled a treaty that had rotted on the vine for months (I say this based on the consistent inactivity demonstrated in the embassies I personally oversaw both at your alliance and at The Sasori Initiative's on the part of your alliance) but instead you took a cheap shot in an attempt to build up moral indignation in your favor. Problem is the attempt backfired/didn't evolve into a hailfest and now both you and your alliance are being incredibly cryptic when called to task on the point. Many many others have called you out over the supposed "secret" information which happened to be common knowledge ahead of time - I don't see this carrying much weight.

If you have evidence it's very much in your interest to show it at this time - you created this topic of discussion so you clearly desired some attention. Give the masses what they want or risk ending up looking the fool for this.

This was not an attempt to rally support against TSI, or slander them, this was a treaty cancelation where we were honest, everyone whines about how everything happens in shady backrooms and nobody is willing to change the way they act since the evil NPO has disappeared, here we are trying to do things the 'right way'. Also 90% of people complaining and trolling this thread are TSI or former TSI such as yourself.

Read through Londo's quoted text above, we know what TSI did, its almsot impossible to log dump to prove it, we would have to dump a million logs for the case, we stated what happened and Athens has and always will be the most honourable alliance on bob, people can judge us on past actions where we have always acted with honour, what we say is the truth, take it as you will.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Jack Diorno

[Jerry Kellerman]

I am impartial (not an ally/hater of either alliance) and I have to be far more inclined to support TSI's version of the events.

Athens has no evidence (or has evidence and will not supply it) and has blamed their two leaks on TSI members when it's been established by both parties that there was a large lack of communication between these two alliances and the supposed recipient of secret Athens information showed logs that she did not receive said information.

I am open to believing Athens, but evidence must be provided, and the reason why many of us are asking for evidence is because you levied very serious charges against TSI, so you need to back them up.

[medtech]

Even if evidence was provided someone from tsi or mhawk would find a way to twist it all up or claim that it was fabricated!

OMG who would think of doing something like that

[Jerry Kellerman]

Even if evidence was provided someone from tsi or mhawk would find a way to twist it all up or claim that it was fabricated!

OMG who would think of doing something like that

That's fine, it's expected that your enemy/rival will do this. For those who are not an enemy/rival of either alliance, such as myself, it would be nice to discern some truth relating to the charges Athens has made. I promise I will judge your evidence without bias.

[Augustus Autumn]

As noted in the OP, TSI abused our trust on 2 seperate occasisions, the menotah incident was the 2nd time, TSI may not of been behind it, but granted what happened the first time around and the closeness of TPF and TSI we assumed it.

Yes yes assumptions are bad, it was logical due to past events.

It's still an assumption and one not founded on evidence - I don't call people liars or accuse them of betrayal without actually having something to back it up.

Londo's post here does not relate to Menotah, this is the first incident that occured. Menotah is basically a little pebble on the side of the road that wouldn't of meant anything by itself, its insignificant.

The first half is, as I read it, related to an incident where information was leaked by Londo to a third party who then passed it along. The problem is that the evidence was not in fact leaked to Shurukian despite what he assumed at first. He and I spoke on the matter and it was resolved within twenty-four hours once he had a chance to speak with Shurukian. The matter was then buried and moved along since people generally accepted that they had all overreacted. For what it's worth he showed me records of the conversation he assumed had sparked the leak - he later admitted to being incorrect on the matter. I take issue with that resolved matter now being used in some backhanded attempt to paint another alliance as some sort of betrayer while boosting the public image of Athens in the process.

This was not an attempt to rally support against TSI, or slander them, this was a treaty cancelation where we were honest, everyone whines about how everything happens in shady backrooms and nobody is willing to change the way they act since the evil NPO has disappeared, here we are trying to do things the 'right way'. Also 90% of people complaining and trolling this thread are TSI or former TSI such as yourself.

I've asked for evidence to be provided as well as commenting on the conduct of Londo and your alliance - frankly, I used to think extremely highly of Athens. Hell, I was the primary driving force behind this treaty. Londo was a very good friend to The Sasori Initiative in the beginning when lines of communication were open. Then, before the commencement of the Karma War, things suddenly changed and the leader I got to know during the Coalition War changed tune. If anything, I find this to be profoundly disappointing.

Read through Londo's quoted text above, we know what TSI did, its almsot impossible to log dump to prove it, we would have to dump a million logs for the case, we stated what happened and Athens has and always will be the most honourable alliance on bob, people can judge us on past actions where we have always acted with honour, what we say is the truth, take it as you will.

You say that you both know what The Sasori Initiative did but that you cannot prove it due to logistical problems. The honor of your alliance is not at stake here - your alliance's conduct and credibility is. Athens started this mess - will it bother to clean it up and put this to bed?

Edit: Clarity.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Tokugawa Mitsukuni