sodom gomorrah Posted August 10, 2009 Report Share Posted August 10, 2009 A most respectable document. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deligo Posted August 10, 2009 Report Share Posted August 10, 2009 Congratulations an all the hard work paying off Sparta. cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azhrei Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 Nice work, guys! Hail Sparta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Paul Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 I've written a few essays on various forms of government, and seeing Sparta take a constitution with this level of detail, complication, and judicial process gives me hope that other Karmic alliances will follow suit. So many parts are great, but in light of the two following passages, may I make a recomendation? ----- [individual Rights] 1. All Spartans are equal before the law. [Membership] 2. Nations over 10,000 NS may be granted a temporary exemption from switching colours, but any nation under that level must switch to the Black sphere before they can be considered for admittance. ----- Perhaps note that all Spartans are equal, but larger nations are more equal than others? _____ By the way, my favorite part is the Sovereignty section, which means that in the unlikely event Sparta should ever find itself on the losing end of a war, they would not accept the terms they imposed on the Order, specifically limiting our ability keep and sign treaties. It would be interesting to see this tested for what is now a standard surrender term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pericles8th Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 Congratulations to our allies... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wabooz Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 -----[individual Rights] 1. All Spartans are equal before the law. [Membership] 2. Nations over 10,000 NS may be granted a temporary exemption from switching colours, but any nation under that level must switch to the Black sphere before they can be considered for admittance. ----- Perhaps note that all Spartans are equal, but larger nations are more equal than others? It isn't a matter of equality, but of understanding. Understanding that there's a good chance a Nation of 10k may come to Sparta while already in an established trade circle. It makes sense, doesn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Conrad Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 (edited) I've written a few essays on various forms of government, and seeing Sparta take a constitution with this level of detail, complication, and judicial process gives me hope that other Karmic alliances will follow suit.So many parts are great, but in light of the two following passages, may I make a recomendation? ----- [individual Rights] 1. All Spartans are equal before the law. [Membership] 2. Nations over 10,000 NS may be granted a temporary exemption from switching colours, but any nation under that level must switch to the Black sphere before they can be considered for admittance. ----- Perhaps note that all Spartans are equal, but larger nations are more equal than others? _____ By the way, my favorite part is the Sovereignty section, which means that in the unlikely event Sparta should ever find itself on the losing end of a war, they would not accept the terms they imposed on the Order, specifically limiting our ability keep and sign treaties. It would be interesting to see this tested for what is now a standard surrender term. I believe the (OOC) RL equivalent (OOC) would be extraneous circumstances. Larger nations stand to lose more from switching the the loss of trades at high levels could take weeks or more to recover whereas small nations can easily gain it back within days due to tax:bill ratios. Edited August 11, 2009 by Matthew Conrad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corinan Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 It isn't a matter of equality, but of understanding. Understanding that there's a good chance a Nation of 10k may come to Sparta while already in an established trade circle. It makes sense, doesn't it? NSO actually has a similar policy. Some people tend to whine when asked to switch colors. We stress that they switch to Brown but it's not an absolute requirement unless they're a relatively new nation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentofChaos Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 Mind if I ask what qualifies as indirect recruiting? Cause that's a pretty big brush with which to paint there. (Not even going to address my disagreements for attacking somebody for asking their friends to join their new alliance, though obviously not saying you WILL) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necromancer V4L Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 I've written a few essays on various forms of government, and seeing Sparta take a constitution with this level of detail, complication, and judicial process gives me hope that other Karmic alliances will follow suit.So many parts are great, but in light of the two following passages, may I make a recomendation? ----- [individual Rights] 1. All Spartans are equal before the law. [Membership] 2. Nations over 10,000 NS may be granted a temporary exemption from switching colours, but any nation under that level must switch to the Black sphere before they can be considered for admittance. ----- Perhaps note that all Spartans are equal, but larger nations are more equal than others? _____ By the way, my favorite part is the Sovereignty section, which means that in the unlikely event Sparta should ever find itself on the losing end of a war, they would not accept the terms they imposed on the Order, specifically limiting our ability keep and sign treaties. It would be interesting to see this tested for what is now a standard surrender term. Large nations are not more equal than others. The original draft had a clause resembling that, and I fought hard to have it removed on that basis. It does not matter the size of the nation you bring forth, what matters is the will and fortitude of it's ruler and peoples. We did not want to create a state where new nations felt even more alienated from the world than they already do. 100k or 1k, the only thing that shall matter to Sparta is whether or not you are a true Spartan. Sparta does understand, as some have stated, that 10k ns nations most likely have a stable trade guild, and that may or may not be on black team. In these instances, it is for the benefit of all parties for that nation to remain on their team. They will be strongly encouraged to go black if their set ever falls through, and you know what they say...once you go black... And to be frank, Sir Paul, I'm still surprised the Order accepted the terms imposed on the Order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
der Rote Baron Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 Good work, congrats. o/ Sparta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeta Defender Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 (edited) Can you summerize the differences in this charter from the last? They killed the senate... And to be frank, Sir Paul, I'm still surprised the Order accepted the terms imposed on the Order. You really want to go there Necromancer V4L, like I told you when you surrendered to Karma and left the Order you made a choice. Plus from seeing the other side, you can see the Karma side of life. But since this since this is Sparta's thread, enough with Order. Sparta care to comment on how by removing the senate from the charter you in theory leaving the democratic ties behind and adopting a more monarchical hierarchy, I hope why the founders added the senate in the 1st place unless they did so to put a check and allow the voice of the democracy to voice dissent? Edited August 11, 2009 by Zeta Defender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Conrad Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 They killed the senate...You really want to go there Necromancer V4L, like I told you when you surrendered to Karma and left the Order you made a choice. Plus from seeing the other side, you can see the Karma side of life. But since this since this is Sparta's thread, enough with Order. Sparta care to comment on how by removing the senate from the charter you in theory leaving the democratic ties behind and adopting a more monarchical hierarchy, I hope why the founders added the senate in the 1st place unless they did so to put a check and allow the voice of the democracy to voice dissent? The Senate has basically been replaced by the Politarch. He/she is considered the "voice of the people" and his main concern is to present the opinion (whether that be support, dissent, or questions) of the general membership regarding the policies and direction the alliance is adopting. The Politarch is nominated and elected by the people so the ties to representation are still present, albeit in a more consolidated form. In all honesty, I see this position as being far more effective than the senate was in bringing out the will of the people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyperion321 Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 Sparta care to comment on how by removing the senate from the charter you in theory leaving the democratic ties behind and adopting a more monarchical hierarchy, I hope why the founders added the senate in the 1st place unless they did so to put a check and allow the voice of the democracy to voice dissent? Matthew mentioned the Politarch position, which does offer the people's opinion in the official capacity. But in all honesty our members voice concerns with or without a Senate. We often make threads and polls in our forums for our members to tell our gov how they are doing on a plethora of subjects, including multiple threads about this very constitution. Our members are not afraid to give their opinions on anything our government does, whether positive or constructive, and I believe that is one of the reasons our community is so strong. Our people understand our government is in charge, but they also know that nobody is infallible. That understanding of human imperfection keeps things "real" and more focused on building a better alliance together, rather than having one group of people being superior and unquestionable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoADarthCyfe6 Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Congratz Sparta, Hope your new and improved Charter makes you well off in the end!!! We at the FoA are doing the same with our charter and putting it under revision as well. Though, I must say, that document was rather long and I will be surprised if we could get at a tenth of that amount There shouldnt be much flaws in your charter I say ^^ o/ Sparta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentofChaos Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 I take it I'm not getting an answer to my question? I'd really rather not accidently indirectly recruit a Spartan and not realize it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necromancer V4L Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 You really want to go there Necromancer V4L, like I told you when you surrendered to Karma and left the Order you made a choice. Plus from seeing the other side, you can see the Karma side of life. I made a choice to be myself, and I wish I had done it sooner. I'm on the 'Karma' side of things, and I feel fine. I take it I'm not getting an answer to my question? I'd really rather not accidently indirectly recruit a Spartan and not realize it. Sorry about that. From the discussions that we've had, "indirect recruiting" just boils down to whether or not the person poaching was doing so with malice or intent, through a manner not already listed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentofChaos Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 So...it means whatever ya feel like essentially? Not necessarily bashing this mind, just wanting to get a clear picture of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Conrad Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 So...it means whatever ya feel like essentially? Not necessarily bashing this mind, just wanting to get a clear picture of course. Of course such actions will be thoroughly reviewed by the ruling body before any decision will be made. Such serious charges will not be brought forth without due deliberation and dialogue between both parties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gondor Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Congrats to Sparta for this, and good luck for making this all work. You'll need it with all the changes and organization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyperion321 Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 So...it means whatever ya feel like essentially? Not necessarily bashing this mind, just wanting to get a clear picture of course. An example I can think of is when a member leaves for a new alliance, he leaves a note in his resignation thread encouraging people to join. It's happened before, and it was quite annoying. I'm not saying we'd immediately jump on said member's alliance, but something like that would be considered indirect recruiting in our minds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinite Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 So...it means whatever ya feel like essentially? Not necessarily bashing this mind, just wanting to get a clear picture of course. My understanding of passive was not individually directed (like Hyp's hyp ), but I never really got into that clause. It basically just that we don't like poaching, and it isn't a change in policy. It's just an enumeration of something that's always been. To answer your question though, yes. Sparta will be the one who has final say on what Sparta's Constitution means. If you're worried about something in particular that you might think is poaching, then feel free to ask. I think I can say with confidence that sending out recruitment PMs to our members is considered poaching, and putting up a recruitment thread on the CN boards is not, but it's kind of pointless to set an exact line in the endless world of hypotheticals in between. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsar Vserossijskij Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 It seems like 5a under Membership provides for the subjugation of the entire Cyberverse to Spartan regulations. People thought the Moldavi Doctrine 1.0 was bad, and now Sparta puts out this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epik High Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 (edited) It seems like 5a under Membership provides for the subjugation of the entire Cyberverse to Spartan regulations. People thought the Moldavi Doctrine 1.0 was bad, and now Sparta puts out this? I think an example would be the "law" where other nations are not allowed to attack Spartan nations. Yeah, they're "subject" to said law, but it's really nothing more than an expression of sovereignty. Or you could have a policy of no tech raiding on black being enforced by Sparta, which would also make others subject to Spartan regulations. But the clause you're referring to seems to simply reserve the right to do such a thing; again, an expression of sovereignty. You can't compare an alliance reserving the right to issue a Moldavi Doctrine to the actual doctrine itself. I could be completely wrong about the intent of that clause, though. Edited August 13, 2009 by Epik High Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Conrad Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 (edited) It seems like 5a under Membership provides for the subjugation of the entire Cyberverse to Spartan regulations. People thought the Moldavi Doctrine 1.0 was bad, and now Sparta puts out this? The clause is there in regards to protecting our sovereignty and to ghosts on our AA. We're not exerting influence or standards on matters that don't concern us or our membership so your comparison is moot. We respect the sovereignty of other alliances and their right to handle their own business as they see fit. The only case in which we would get involved is if it were an action upon Sparta itself. Please don't try to put a ridiculous spin on something that's not there. Thanks. Edited August 13, 2009 by Matthew Conrad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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