The Unjust War

[Joe Kremlin]

I don't care who won, I just wish the disbanded alliances were still around.

[Grand Emperor Burka]

Indeed, although I can't say which I've enjoyed more- seeing BLEU leveled or seeing TPF pay for their treachery. Probably the former, but they were both awesome.

I'd say seeing TPF getting leveled as i had a great time fighting them this time around getting nuked for the first time at 10k ns was quite amusing

[Essenia]

I don't care who won, I just wish the disbanded alliances were still around.

They live on in all of us (TOP especially )

I'd say seeing TPF getting leveled as i had a great time fighting them this time around getting nuked for the first time at 10k ns was quite amusing

It is true, there were no alliances that I liked much on the hegemony side during this war- during the WotC I was quite sad about what appeared to be the doom of MK. However, seeing the smug bullies who forced people out of the game and gloated about it around on every occasion possible complain about injustice and unfair CBs was poetry at its best.

[Prime minister Johns]

~ all the way with no regrets.

Besides portraying yourself as the bad guy as the unjust highway did was not exactly the smartest move from a PR point of view.

[Essenia]

Besides portraying yourself as the bad guy as the unjust highway did was not exactly the smartest move from a PR point of view.

Some people are not ashamed of the glory the comes from ascending via the unjust path.

[Swiper]

I was in a neutral ~ alliance (TOP) right as the war was beginning, then left and was nation and allianceless for the duration of the conflict and spent most of my time chilling with GOONS and explaining to them why TOP didn't want to roll with them everything I saw in the ~ war planning IRC chat room. Still wish that UJP would have won, or that it didn't end pathetically with certain people using actions/behaviors that they were aware of for quite some time to justify extreme cowardice.

Fixed.

[Ryan Greenberg]

Unjust Highway. Fought for GOONS and got destroyed so I deleted my nation. Because I realize that was a stupid mistake I voted Unjust Highway Victory though I would have kept my nation no matter what, but I would have perfered an Unjust Highway Victory.

[Essenia]

I was in a neutral ~ alliance (TOP) right as the war was beginning, then left and was nation and allianceless for the duration of the conflict and spent most of my time chilling with GOONS and explaining to them why TOP didn't want to roll with them everything I saw in the ~ war planning IRC chat room. Still wish that UJP would have won, or that it didn't end pathetically with certain people using actions/behaviors that they were aware of for quite some time to justify extreme cowardice.

Guess again. I was never in any sort of ~ channel in my life. Also, I have no idea why you classifying TOP as ~.

Edited July 28, 2009 by essenia

[Swiper]

Guess again. I was never in any sort of ~ channel in my life. Also, I have no idea why you classifying TOP as ~.

You were given the information.

[Tromp]

So, my friendly FOKker, what you are saying is that, according to Pacifican logic, UjP won UjW?

I lol'ed this.

Must agree with Timmehhh's post.

I was in FOK at the time, and fought for the UJP. We should have won then, but alas it worked this way as well.

[Essenia]

You were given the information.

Also 100% incorrect.

[Swiper]

Also 100% incorrect.

I think we've derailed the thread enough but I do remember what you've told me.

[Tromp]

Besides portraying yourself as the bad guy as the unjust highway did was not exactly the smartest move from a PR point of view.

Orly?

That's only a matter of perception my friend.

[Darth Sexy]

GOD Minister of Defence, so I was UjP. Most fun I've ever had in CN. Voted for a stalemate, as that was our only hope. Still pissed off about how the war ended, like most people are.

[RandomInterrupt]

GOD Minister of Defence, so I was UjP. Most fun I've ever had in CN. Voted for a stalemate, as that was our only hope. Still pissed off about how the war ended, like most people are.

I was pretty pleased with how it ended actually.

I still honestly believe that an Unjust Path win would have resulted in a far different type of game today, and it wouldn't be pretty. The folks who were defeated and as a result left the game are not people that would have been responsible victors, for sure. They loved being tyrants and were proud of it. How many people just fought a war to take down the NPO for creating a Hegemony and basically being a cruel dictator? Does anyone really think the GOONS would have been more benevolent? I guess we'll never know, but personally I think we had the best result possible.

The only thing I wish I could have done differently was work to consolidate power after the war better. Basically ~ smashed the UJP path apart, when we went off and relaxed in our victory. While we relaxed the NPO used the opening we created to form the Hegemony in order to isolate and destroy Polar. Had Polar actually been the bad guys we were made out to be, we'd of kept working post UJW and denied the Continuum the ability to form. Minor slip up, I guess.

In terms of the war itself though, it was great fun and my personal greatest accomplishments in this game were in the planning of said war. The good guys won, the bad guys lost, and the game is better off for it.

[Essenia]

The only thing I wish I could have done differently was work to consolidate power after the war better. Basically ~ smashed the UJP path apart, when we went off and relaxed in our victory. While we relaxed the NPO used the opening we created to form the Hegemony in order to isolate and destroy Polar. Had Polar actually been the bad guys we were made out to be, we'd of kept working post UJW and denied the Continuum the ability to form. Minor slip up, I guess.

You didn't have enough real allies to destroy the other alliances you wanted to kill. People's hate for GOONS didn't make them love Polar, as you found out 9 months later. The Orders have always been great at getting smaller alliances to follow them, but their psychopathic/single minded approach to FA leaves them short of actual friends when trouble comes.

[nc1701]

I was neutral and just happy to watch MK get blowed up at the time... I think they had just tech raided me or something. Ironic how views change as you get active and pay attention to the game isn't it?

I voted stalemate because that would have been much more interesting I think, but I'm very glad UJP was defeated. They would have formed an even worse Hegemony than NPO did.

[Tomcat]

This is the only major war that I wasn't around for.

[RandomInterrupt]

You didn't have enough real allies to destroy the other alliances you wanted to kill. People's hate for GOONS didn't make them love Polar, as you found out 9 months later. The Orders have always been great at getting smaller alliances to follow them, but their psychopathic/single minded approach to FA leaves them short of actual friends when trouble comes.

I don't think you can lump our FA together like that really. Mostly because I developed Polar's FA to be the complete opposite of what the NPO's was. I actually learned a lot from NPO's FA tactics in terms of what not to do when I was building Polar's Ministry of Truth. Let's take a look at the alliances that became allied to Polar during that time period. There's two groups really. Group one is still there with strong loyal ties on both sides. Look at the STA, Genesis, GR, CCC, etc. My FA team was able to forge actual friendships and bonds that are still present and strong two years later. Not sure how that is psychopathic really. The other group of course either abandoned or turned on Polar. Some of those guys were just tools that had already served their purpose. Others were just plain betrayal. I'm not sure how you can blame Polar for the fact that some of their allies were willing to believe lies told to them and were too stupid to actually verify them. But whatever, you clearly either have an agenda or just have no idea what Polar is as an alliance.

To group the FA strategy that formed the Continuum with the FA Strategy that created years long friendships that survived multiple wars, harsh terms, and forced treaty cancellations paints a pretty poor understanding of what was actually going on then.

edit: also I should note that in response to "You didn't have enough real allies to destroy the other alliances you wanted to kill.", we actually got what we wanted. The alliances that got off lightly were the ones we wanted to get out light, and the ones that are dead are the ones we wanted to see dead.

Edited July 28, 2009 by RandomInterrupt

[Essenia]

I don't think you can lump our FA together like that really. Mostly because I developed Polar's FA to be the complete opposite of what the NPO's was. I actually learned a lot from NPO's FA tactics in terms of what not to do when I was building Polar's Ministry of Truth. Let's take a look at the alliances that became allied to Polar during that time period. There's two groups really. Group one is still there with strong loyal ties on both sides. Look at the STA, Genesis, GR, CCC, etc. My FA team was able to forge actual friendships and bonds that are still present and strong two years later. Not sure how that is psychopathic really. The other group of course either abandoned or turned on Polar. Some of those guys were just tools that had already served their purpose. Others were just plain betrayal. I'm not sure how you can blame Polar for the fact that some of their allies were willing to believe lies told to them and were too stupid to actually verify them. But whatever, you clearly either have an agenda or just have no idea what Polar is as an alliance.

You signed treaties with alliances that you did not really have great relations with to further your political goals (which were rather aggressive I might add). That worked well at first, but it came back to bite you later.

edit: also I should note that in response to "You didn't have enough real allies to destroy the other alliances you wanted to kill.", we actually got what we wanted. The alliances that got off lightly were the ones we wanted to get out light, and the ones that are dead are the ones we wanted to see dead.

edit:In your earlier post was worded, you suggested that you would have been better off killing or at least badly hurting some of the alliances that later came to oppose you. That is what I was referring.

Edited July 28, 2009 by essenia

[Saber]

The only thing I wish I could have done differently was work to consolidate power after the war better. Basically ~ smashed the UJP path apart, when we went off and relaxed in our victory. While we relaxed the NPO used the opening we created to form the Hegemony in order to isolate and destroy Polar. Had Polar actually been the bad guys we were made out to be, we'd of kept working post UJW and denied the Continuum the ability to form. Minor slip up, I guess.

It's a slip up indeed. I wouldn't say however you relaxed in your victory. In my opinion you underestimated NPO who you probably considered declining in leadership role and also underestimated TOP's ambitions.

TOP was one of few alliances that did not side with NpO but rather stayed close to NPO. Even during the war we had minor talks about forming something like Q. Once war was over, you guys in NpO decided to push for One Vision and focused on that. Thinking that superbloc of few close superpowers will be able to control the world. Also you felt that everyone else was already focused around NpO and that another bloc is unnecessary.

So, NPO and IRON decided to bypass NpO and form premier bloc in CN. Once that was established all FA advances NpO had made in ~ war was gone and NpO was pushed to second rate role. Electron Sponge failed to properly adapt to such position and continued to mistreat people around him which eventually with bit of Grub's slipping up led to war on NpO.

At least that was my analysis. You probably could have seized the moment and formed your own super bloc. If you did that history might be quite different (TOP being destroyed for one). But you didn't, you decided to go with OV which was never going to dominate CN like Q could.

[Essenia]

So, NPO and IRON decided to bypass NpO and form premier bloc in CN. Once that was established all FA advances NpO had made in ~ war was gone and NpO was pushed to second rate role. Electron Sponge failed to properly adapt to such position and continued to mistreat people around him which eventually with bit of Grub's slipping up led to war on NpO.

The fundamental problem here is that most alliances didn't like Polar very much. People appreciated their leading the coalition against GOONS, but E_S was hardly loved then and he did nothing to change the perception of himself as arrogant and bullying that had been established before the Unjust War. Even if he had tried, he would have run into serious difficulties if he continued on the offensive- Polar and their close allies had low quality militaries there wouldn't have had the same massive coalition to make up for that.

Edited July 28, 2009 by essenia

[NoFish]

I was pretty pleased with how it ended actually.

I still honestly believe that an Unjust Path win would have resulted in a far different type of game today, and it wouldn't be pretty. The folks who were defeated and as a result left the game are not people that would have been responsible victors, for sure. They loved being tyrants and were proud of it. How many people just fought a war to take down the NPO for creating a Hegemony and basically being a cruel dictator? Does anyone really think the GOONS would have been more benevolent? I guess we'll never know, but personally I think we had the best result possible.

The only thing I wish I could have done differently was work to consolidate power after the war better. Basically ~ smashed the UJP path apart, when we went off and relaxed in our victory. While we relaxed the NPO used the opening we created to form the Hegemony in order to isolate and destroy Polar. Had Polar actually been the bad guys we were made out to be, we'd of kept working post UJW and denied the Continuum the ability to form. Minor slip up, I guess.

In terms of the war itself though, it was great fun and my personal greatest accomplishments in this game were in the planning of said war. The good guys won, the bad guys lost, and the game is better off for it.

A UJP victory would have ended in the disbandment of the other side, horrible curbstomps for anyone who angered the top alliances - including such offenses as happening to have the top sanction spot - and rolling a plethora of alliances they didn't like in the next GW without any real CB, all the while making everyone who wasn't allied to the ruling coalition live in constant fear of getting rolled to the point where they were afraid of canceling treaties with alliances they no longer spoke to.

Right. It would have been a completely different Planet Bob.

Edited July 28, 2009 by NoFish

[Aeternalis]

Invicta gov at the time. I worked really hard to pull us into the war against the unjust highway. I didn't succeed because of the damn hippies. oh - and ES always has been my CN hero, so i wanted his side to win

Edited July 28, 2009 by Aeternalis

[RandomInterrupt]

It's a slip up indeed. I wouldn't say however you relaxed in your victory. In my opinion you underestimated NPO who you probably considered declining in leadership role and also underestimated TOP's ambitions.

TOP was one of few alliances that did not side with NpO but rather stayed close to NPO. Even during the war we had minor talks about forming something like Q. Once war was over, you guys in NpO decided to push for One Vision and focused on that. Thinking that superbloc of few close superpowers will be able to control the world. Also you felt that everyone else was already focused around NpO and that another bloc is unnecessary.

So, NPO and IRON decided to bypass NpO and form premier bloc in CN. Once that was established all FA advances NpO had made in ~ war was gone and NpO was pushed to second rate role. Electron Sponge failed to properly adapt to such position and continued to mistreat people around him which eventually with bit of Grub's slipping up led to war on NpO.

At least that was my analysis. You probably could have seized the moment and formed your own super bloc. If you did that history might be quite different (TOP being destroyed for one). But you didn't, you decided to go with OV which was never going to dominate CN like Q could.

One Vision wasn't built to rule though. You wont believe me, but Polar pitched the One Vision idea as a way to take a small group of close allies that were already treatied to each other, and bring them to one central point. The idea was to allow us better communication and sharing of ideas and goals. Basically re-creating some of the positive aspects of the Drinking Buddies. Despite that general consensus, Polar was never interested in being a Hegemonic force. We never wanted to rule the game or prevent folks from playing. We wanted to have enough strength to survive and defeat whoever our enemy at the time was. Nothing more and nothing less.

So we are basically agreeing really. We could have formed our version of the Continuum and we could have ushered in the Hegemony. The NPO would have fallen earlier, for sure. TOP, I don't know. We never hated you like you are convinced we did though, but you wont believe that either. Sure we didn't like you, but it's not like there was ever a plan to do anything to you. Some folks who are around today wouldn't be, and some folks who are gone today would still be here.

Bottom line is, we were not interested in creating a massive bloc to rule CN, so someone else did it and tried to kill us with it. The only reason I brought up the point was, it was technically a tactical mistake in the aftermath of the war, but I don't think we would have done anything different really.

In terms of up to the war and right to the point where it ended, I am happy.