nutkase Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 You don't know the circumstances under which the treaty was suspended. We here in TOOL don't like people poaching other alliance's members, and we were put in a catch 22 situation, as we couldn't actually declare on Athens due to our surrender terms (dammit Karma war, end already), but we also wanted to honour the treaty signed. Either way, it was voted on, and it has been suspended. this is exactly my reasoning, when it comes down to it in the end, TOOL does not support its treaties. As I have seen in the past and I am seeing now. If they declared on your protectorate (not sure if they did with that weird written OP) you had every right to defend them even with the surrender terms. by the way, love you long time R3nowned Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Srqt Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 All I got out of the OP is that you want mentoah to die even though you aren't going to kill them, you are at war but not fighting and you did this to prove you are better than the people you are actually fighting (which may or may not include mentoah) am I missing something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R3nowned Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 this is exactly my reasoning, when it comes down to it in the end, TOOL does not support its treaties. As I have seen in the past and I am seeing now. If they declared on your protectorate (not sure if they did with that weird written OP) you had every right to defend them even with the surrender terms. And we were going to. We were in contact with Athens a lot during this whole time, and we were put on alert for war, but prefered a diplomatic solution. In the end, as we didn't like what Mentoh did (they lied about what they were doing - recruiting from other alliances), we came up with this solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dulceice Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 You can't post like that! Some of us simple-minded interior folk get confused But I think there was peace? anyway... congrats I guess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baden-Württemberg Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 So would you have attacked if TOOL didn't suspend the treaty? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen Lee Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 Londo I want to hug you and punch you all at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutkase Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 (edited) And we were going to. We were in contact with Athens a lot during this whole time, and we were put on alert for war, but prefered a diplomatic solution. In the end, as we didn't like what Mentoh did (they lied about what they were doing - recruiting from other alliances), we came up with this solution. TOOL didn't take a diplomatic solution, TOOL basically handed them over to Athens and said you win. Dodged another treaty obligation to save that precious NS Edited July 18, 2009 by nutkase Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R3nowned Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 (edited) TOOL didn't take a diplomatic solution, TOOL basically handed them over to Athens and said you win.Dodged another treaty obligation to save that precious NS Nope. We thought Athens was going to attack, up until now. The treaty was suspended for private reasons. Edited July 18, 2009 by R3nowned Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzoppistan Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 TOOL didn't take a diplomatic solution, TOOL basically handed them over to Athens and said you win.Dodged another treaty obligation to save that precious NS I wasn't aware you had the full set of logs, or is that your speculative answer? What would you do if you were in their shoes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutkase Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 Even though our allies were notified in case the s*** hits the fan? what does that prove? nothing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anenu Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 Why does this have to be an announcement? Why couldn't it just stay within the channels? Does Athens feel it has to announce its "merciful" deeds for all of planet bob to see? Nothing happened so why announce it? Your question was already answered earlier in this thread. Basically it was need because everybody and their grandma know this war was coming and if Athens had simply contacted the involved parties on IRC then the people waiting for something to happen would still be waiting and would still be building up tension and that would just blow up in someones face eventually. Also i am finding all the people who seem to think that Athens backed out of this because we were scared of being rolled rather humorous as either they somehow missed the part were tool suspended the treaty or want to look knowledgeable because they have no idea what is happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutkase Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 I wasn't aware you had the full set of logs, or is that your speculative answer?What would you do if you were in their shoes? I honour my treaties, something I have always done and continue to do even if my ally is in the wrong. A treaty is a treaty, not something you should turn your back on when it it does not suit you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outworld Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 lol like that's ever stopped us before.EDIT: kidding. GRAN's still around Fake 2nd EDIT: we're not actually pursuing anything with GRAN. I Seriously Lol'd at this, As far as the actual announcement is concern , since i am not fully aware what really happened nor do i care to find out, I will break CN tradition by not blabbering on about something I have no clue about, so instead i will just say congrats on finding a peaceful resolution, however I don’t understand why it must be made public as if to prove to the world that you are merciful, The way I see it people should do things because they feel they are right thing to do and not because they want to use it as a publicity stunt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Srqt Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 I honour my treaties, something I have always done and continue to do even if my ally is in the wrong. A treaty is a treaty, not something you should turn your back on when it it does not suit you Surrender terms are also technically treaties, so in order to honor one they would have to break another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutkase Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 Surrender terms are also technically treaties, so in order to honor one they would have to break another. but being that is involved maybe a protectorate being attacked, i would see that the surrender terms being void as was it intended to stop TOOL re entering the war in a offensive way rather then stopping them defending protectorates Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R3nowned Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 what does that prove? nothing TOOL gov (Specifically Creeky and Gamemaster, props to you guys ) spent hours trying to solve this diplomatically. It went from Athens rolling the whole alliance to not attacking at all. We did as much as we could to minimize potential damage to Menotah, even though they put us into an extremely unfortunate position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutkase Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 It went from Athens rolling the whole alliance to not attacking at all. and yet I still see war screens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Srqt Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 but being that is involved maybe a protectorate being attacked, i would see that the surrender terms being void as was it intended to stop TOOL re entering the war in a offensive way rather then stopping them defending protectorates And poaching is an act of war and protectorates are not designed to protect alliances from wars that they instigate. we can argue semantics all night long but the fact is that TOOL was in an impossible situation and being overly critical of them because of it serves no purpose other then pursuing an obvious grudge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzoppistan Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 (edited) I honour my treaties, something I have always done and continue to do even if my ally is in the wrong. A treaty is a treaty, not something you should turn your back on when it it does not suit you That is commendable of you. However, situations are rarely that black and white. What if the actions of an alliance violates the treaty you have with them? What if you are lied to by those who you protect? If some one who you like fairly well but do not know intimately comes to your house for dinner and steals another guest's wallet, are you going to interfere with that guest seeking reparations? Will you mediate between the two? Will you kick the offender out? Will you beat up the guest who discovered his wallet is missing for making an accusation? What would you do? As you can see, there are many different responses to any event, all of which depend on context and often cannot be distilled into simplistic right or wrong. Edited July 18, 2009 by Kzoppistan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R3nowned Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 Surrender terms are also technically treaties, so in order to honor one they would have to break another. Probably wouldn't have stopped us defending, although it would really screw things up around on CN (imagine the treaties roll on effect) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutkase Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 And poaching is an act of war and protectorates are not designed to protect alliances from wars that they instigate. we can argue semantics all night long but the fact is that TOOL was in an impossible situation and being overly critical of them because of it serves no purpose other then pursuing an obvious grudge. I agree poaching is a act of war, but turning your back on treaties in my eyes is a sign of cowardice. Something they have done in the past and looks like they have done now. Agree to disagree Kingsrqt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heyman Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 Glad to see that a diplomatic solution has been sought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhawk Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 Probably wouldn't have stopped us defending, although it would really screw things up around on CN (imagine the treaties roll on effect) We'd declare for sure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R3nowned Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 I agree poaching is a act of war, but turning your back on treaties in my eyes is a sign of cowardice. Something they have done in the past and looks like they have done now.Agree to disagree Kingsrqt? We defended them via diplomatic channels, rather than through war. It isn't any less honourable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Srqt Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 Agree to disagree Kingsrqt? sounds like a good idea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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