Imperial Decree - New Polar Order

[Chigurh]

Waiting for the tear filled hand wringing post from FAN complaining about how unfairly the NPO is being treated... I think I'm going to be waiting awhile...

[AnCapistan]

Im seeing the constant redundancy here, After what NPO has done to several past alliances the terms we are offering are everything lenient. We aren't asking for them to disband, we aren't asking them to decom their wonders or military, the only thing we are seeking here is the justice where in which they have brought upon themselves.

When has the NPO ever asked for an alliance to disband?

[mike717]

And yet this decree wasn't targeted at anyone in particular but Karma at large which I think is the primary complaint many including myself are having with it. Just because some Karma alliances request harsh reps doesn't mean that you should paint them all with the same brush.

Basically, it's because people assumed Karma to be a bloc of some kind that has caused this whole mix up. And many people 'in' Karma may have conceived of themselves as part of a bloc and that may have fueled the misunderstanding. But the fact is that it is a very loose collection of alliances united mostly by a common foe. Take that foe away and the unity ceases to exist. We've always known that. If anything that completely invalidates any argument that there's a new hegemony.

You can't say Karma is weak and coming apart at the seams and then in the next breath say that they are the new hegemony. It just doesn't make sense. The fact that Karma is inconsistent means that you don't have to worry about this ad-hoc monster becoming a permanent fixture of Planet Bob.

I've never said Karma is weak or coming apart at the seems. In fact i would absolutely agree with everything you just posted above IF Karma was weak and coming apart at the seams. However, what i see is the great majority in Karma trying to justify thier hypocrisy, or saying (as you're saying right now) don't lump us in with them. Could you please tell us exactly how we are supposed to differentiate bewtween "these" Karma alliances and "those" Karma alliances?

[Drostan]

Do you remember VietFAN war? NPO won all battles but can you tell me who declared victory in the end of it? Be careful, history usualy repeats itself. And as Grub said, stop to saying bring it, it's just fool.

If you can find one example of me saying 'bring it' in this entire discussion I will send you tech. This entire time I have been supporting a diplomatic solution to negotiating a peace. It was Voodoo Nova who posted in a mysteriously threatening way that led to me quoting him. It's funny because a while back you were saying how harsh terms for the NPO are not needed because they are isolated and couldn't come back for revenge etc. And now you're warning me for a threat/challenge I never made to begin with.

I hope this war ends because these discussions are unbearable. The amount of sabre-rattling and chest-beating has sky-rocketed over the past few days. Predictably, discussion has not profitted from this. People can't even tell friend from foe in discussion anymore because the concepts at stake here have become so confused and opaque. Ugh.

[Corran Dralling]

So this is pretty much NpO asking Karma to stop attacking NPO? I'd be nice to have a peaceful CN again. Otherwise why not take it to TE. Seriously Karmas making CN unfun for 647 CNers, half of which are inactive. So I say PEACE TO NPO! YOUR DOING WHAT YOUR "PUNISHING" FOR! 0/ PEACE!

[Voodoo Nova]

So you think the NPO is going to resort to a military comeback? Or is that a veiled way of saying that you plan on getting involved? Either way, a pretty careless comment it seems. Or are you actually just stating that no surrender has been agreed upon?

My statements are hardly careless, and if you really fail to see what I am trying to say then you must not be thinking all that clearly. History repeats itself and just like life, it will always find a way.

[Trinite]

I've never said Karma is weak or coming apart at the seems. In fact i would absolutely agree with everything you just posted above IF Karma was weak and coming apart at the seams. However, what i see is the great majority in Karma trying to justify thier hypocrisy, or saying (as you're saying right now) don't lump us in with them. Could you please tell us exactly how we are supposed to differentiate bewtween "these" Karma alliances and "those" Karma alliances?

There are 18 alliances with 1000s of members. There are varying opinions in each alliance. Any rhetoric on these boards only serves to bring us to the extremes. Just because you can't see where the lines are doesn't mean they don't exist. You act like we have to be one or many. We're both. You call our members disagreeing hypocrisy, and us pointing out that there is a variety of opinion an attempt to distance ourselves from those we're fighting with. I'm sorry it's not nice and neat for you to pick out the black and the white. Sorry I can't help.

[Corran Dralling]

So is no one going to say I am right?

[AndrewHG]

My statements are hardly careless, and if you really fail to see what I am trying to say then you must not be thinking all that clearly. History repeats itself and just like life, it will always find a way.

Ah... Where there is a way there is a war?

[Corran Dralling]

Guess not...

[delendum]

I've never said Karma is weak or coming apart at the seems. In fact i would absolutely agree with everything you just posted above IF Karma was weak and coming apart at the seams. However, what i see is the great majority in Karma trying to justify thier hypocrisy, or saying (as you're saying right now) don't lump us in with them. Could you please tell us exactly how we are supposed to differentiate bewtween "these" Karma alliances and "those" Karma alliances?

It's obvious to me that whatever we say will be taken by you as "trying to justify the hypocrisy". Please tell me, what kind of an answer are you really looking for?

To those of you "disillusioned" Karma nations, you are like leafs on the wind. You are the great indefinite mass that gets swayed ever which way the drama cloud goes. Unless you are able to put a bit of faith and commitment into this whole thing instead of buying every piece of propaganda out there and complaining all the time, you will never achieve anything. Take a step back, and try to see the larger picture for once.

[Waterana]

The shift in opinion is among those fighting NPO, it started with "We all want peace, lets work for it" and its slowly shifted to "Holy !@#$, these guys are arrogant !@#$%^&* even in defeat! I don't feel like doing them favours anymore."

You wanted peace?

We don't have the monopoly on arrogance. Plenty on your side are displaying a ton of it too. Including in this thread.

Are you kidding? most of us would be thrilled to see the war over. At this point its been mostly reduced to CMing tech off ZI'd nations. Do you have any idea how goddamn BORING that is?

I've had a chat with a Spartan in query. He was pretty honest in why the alliances fighting us want us to surrender so badly, and accept the current terms as written. It has nothing to do with all the bluster about past crimes, or any of that rubbish being used as propaganda. It does have a lot to do with what I've been saying all along, fear. You do want us destroyed, and expect us to sign off on those terms, then lie down and let you get on with it. Dream on.

Instead of casting blindly about perhaps you could make a specific claim?

Its a surrender process there are three options;

1.Take the terms as offered.

2. Negotiate to try to change them.

3. Keep fighting.

NPO chose number 2. This is all well and good.

Option two takes time though, NPO did not have the luxury of a ceasefire while pursuing option two. So the war continues while they haggle. This is again, their choice.

This is not a failure, this is in fact the only way the processes works, it in fact reflects upon the processes as a the continued conflict provides a reason to not quibble over minor details as one who had a ceasefire might, and only to address the most serious of issues.

So far I see the process working as its supposed to. If you thinking its taking too long well I'm sorry the world doesn't move faster at your say so.

Right now we're still a free alliance making our own decisions. Our alliance strength has bottomed out and has begun to rise again (might explain some of the renewed pressure on us to surrender) and morale within the NPO is still very high. We've had some leave, true, but they aren't being missed. Let me explain something. For an alliance to accept surrender terms, those terms have to be a better option for the defeated alliance than continuing to fight. The terms you've offered us are much worse for us than continuing to fight, so we continue to fight.

I'm pretty sure we've been openly honest about our stances on NPO. We want them to be thoroughly militarily defeated, throughout the alliance. Stomping 20k ns nations down to 1k doesn't change NPO's real military capability. Take their top nations down a few thousand infra, and make them spend some of that warchest to rebuild and then aid out, is much more desirable. I would much rather see NPO at 1 mil NS, thoroughly bombed out, than at 5 mil NS paying billions in reps.

BTW, don't argue with me over these numbers, as I didn't put much thought into them. They're more to provide examples to my sentiment and feelings.

We have been thoroughly militarily defeated. Why the hell would we accept terms that's main clause result in us losing more alliance strength? No alliance with any sense of duty towards its members would accept such a thing. Would you?

Surrender is supposed to end a war, not require the defeated alliance to remove their mouth guard so the enemy can get a few more punches in and remove some teeth. I read somewhere that our banks would be expected to disarm first as per the surrender terms, and not be allowed to defend themselves in any way during this 2 weeks war as per the surrender terms. Is this true?

[Colonel Radec]

I think the NAACer is still mad. Just a thought though.

[Haflinger]

It's a shame more NPO members aren't posting at this stage in the discussion.

Hopefully it's because there's been movement in negotiations, and they're busy talking on their forums about an offer.

[muffasamini]

Are you kidding? most of us would be thrilled to see the war over. At this point its been mostly reduced to CMing tech off ZI'd nations. Do you have any idea how goddamn BORING that is?

Then end it! The NPO does not have the power to end this at this moment. We have been working tirelessly for a peace agreement, and we've been pretty clear about how willing we are to accept extremely harsh terms. Karma has the ability to end this war tomorrow.

But again, we cannot accept peace that could result in the insolvency of this alliance, and were not going to accept peace terms that will hurt us MORE than continuing war. That simply doesnt make any sense.

Edited July 6, 2009 by muffasamini

[Corran Dralling]

Fact remains 647 CNers are not having fun. THIS IS A DAMN GAME! YOUR SUPPOSED TO HAVE FUN!

[Haflinger]

If the terms are actually impossible as you say, do you really think that Karma would re-declare on you if you were making a good faith effort. I can almost guarantee they wouldn't.

Yes, they really do think that.

No, I don't know whether Karma would or not. But that's not the point. Pacifica is convinced that they will need to fulfill the letter of the terms or be re-declared on.

[Matthew Conrad]

Fact remains 647 CNers are not having fun. THIS IS A DAMN GAME! YOUR SUPPOSED TO HAVE FUN!

So their priorities should come before others have fun? This is quite ridiculous.

[Corran Dralling]

I'LL SAY THIS ONE MORE TIME! CN IS A GAME! NO NEED TO GET V FOR VENDETTA ON NPO! YOUR DOING WHAT YOUR "PUNISHING" FOR! THIS IS TO ALL OF CN! TREAT OTHERS AS YOU WISH DONE UPON YOU! AND THIS IS A GAME! ITS MEANT TO BE FUN!

[delendum]

Rant written in large text

You don't look like you're having much fun, good sir.

Edited July 6, 2009 by delendum

[Matthew Conrad]

Thank you for your very valid arguments.

[R&R-Viking]

So their priorities should come before others have fun? This is quite ridiculous.

Remember what we learned in the "other" NPO thread, only NPOers are "real people" with a "community".

[muffasamini]

Yes, they really do think that.

No, I don't know whether Karma would or not. But that's not the point. Pacifica is convinced that they will need to fulfill the letter of the terms or be re-declared on.

Dead on. I can see exactly the topic. Someone posts a thread how we went a smudgen against the terms not once, but twice (collective gasp!) and hostilities are re-opened. Theres a big long page of logs and numbers and how *sad* you are to see this have to come. The first several posts are "and dont think this is right" but then thats followed by about 100 pages of "didnt you do this to FAN? You tottally deserve it!" Then several of us are going "we knew this would happen!" But the CN web-bots keep posting that we did it to FAN, we deserve it, something about TDSM8, but now theres no way out of the war at all, and were screwed. No thank you.

Edited July 6, 2009 by muffasamini

[President Kuse]

Then end it! The NPO does not have the power to end this at this moment. We have been working tirelessly for a peace agreement, and we've been pretty clear about how willing we are to accept extremely harsh terms. Karma has the ability to end this war tomorrow.

But again, we cannot accept peace that could result in the insolvency of this alliance, and were not going to accept peace terms that will hurt us MORE than continuing war. That simply doesnt make any sense.

Actually the ball is in your court to end this. We have nothing to lose by waiting. Only you do.

Till you guys accept the terms as they are, Then this shall continue. Its obvious that we are not going to budge, Why the Wait NPO?

[Strudeldorf]

Fact remains 647 CNers are not having fun. THIS IS A DAMN GAME! YOUR SUPPOSED TO HAVE FUN!

I'm having fun.

Actually the ball is in your court to end this. We have nothing to lose by waiting. Only you do.

Till you guys accept the terms as they are, Then this shall continue. Its obvious that we are not going to budge, Why the Wait NPO?

We're actually gaining strength at this point. We have nothing else to lose at war, while there is much to be lost in the surrender terms. I'm fine with the status quo at the moment.

Why not wait?

Edited July 6, 2009 by Strudeldorf