An Proposed Alternative to the New Pacific Order Peace Terms

[WcaesarD]

It actually is, NPO will continue bleeding members until it fades away (eventually). Sure, it takes some time but they'll eventually be far less of a nuisance than FAN ever was.

Thanks

So, did anyone consider than all NPO has to do to avoid this is move some of it's members to another or no AA for a while, and then send some aid, it solves the problem of paying parts of the reps. I doubt this would work, but I don't want to see it tried, there are just so many issues with it, there's no set amount that NPO has to pay, there is no realistic way to track all nations and aid movements, and in addition, I don't think Karma is looking for suggestions.

[Lord Strider]

Would you mind providing an example, one that wouldn't apply to the standard payment of reps, of course?

Well for one you are relying on people to do this, these people have lives outside of this game, hopefully, and they are not always around. There was a time frame put on these terms, that makes for something to go wrong on one side and people getting mad. After that it is back to war. Mainly i just talk from experience, I have handled a good amount of reps in my day.

[AirMe]

Everyone ends up in this situation some day.

With the chaos in the world today and everyone scrambling for the top, that day may come sooner than you think.

I will enjoy reminding you of what you said when you are begging for mercy from someone baying for your blood.

She has experienced that. Ask your friend Bilrow if he remembers what he threatened ION over. They disbanded because he was going to hunt them down with something that didn't even have to do with the game. And who enabled him to have that self inflated sense of self worth? The NPO.

[Lord Strider]

So, did anyone consider than all NPO has to do to avoid this is move some of it's members to another or no AA for a while, and then send some aid, it solves the problem of paying parts of the reps. I doubt this would work, but I don't want to see it tried, there are just so many issues with it, there's no set amount that NPO has to pay, there is no realistic way to track all nations and aid movements, and in addition, I don't think Karma is looking for suggestions.

Great point. I didn't even think of that at first.

[Augustus Autumn]

So, did anyone consider than all NPO has to do to avoid this is move some of it's members to another or no AA for a while, and then send some aid, it solves the problem of paying parts of the reps. I doubt this would work, but I don't want to see it tried, there are just so many issues with it, there's no set amount that NPO has to pay, there is no realistic way to track all nations and aid movements, and in addition, I don't think Karma is looking for suggestions.

Alliances in the Karma Coalition have noted that they have the ability to keep track of nations. Certainly the Gramlins have this capability through the use of NORAD which could be used effectively in this instance.

Incidentally, Lord Strider, I appreciate your musical taste.

Edited July 2, 2009 by Tokugawa Mitsukuni

[Nintenderek]

I like the original terms more.

[Lord Strider]

She has experienced that. Ask your friend Bilrow if he remembers what he threatened ION over. They disbanded because he was going to hunt them down with something that didn't even have to do with the game. And who enabled him to have that self inflated sense of self worth? The NPO.

You are not serious? Blaming the NPO for something like this is silly. I believe Bilrow wasn't even in the NPO at that time. Are we to police all of CN?

Thank you Tokugawa Mitsukuni.

Edited July 2, 2009 by Lord Strider

[Ogaden]

She has experienced that. Ask your friend Bilrow if he remembers what he threatened ION over. They disbanded because he was going to hunt them down with something that didn't even have to do with the game. And who enabled him to have that self inflated sense of self worth? The NPO.

I'm tired of these arguments, they're all based on hearsay and speculation, the only thing they all have in common is some master plan we supposedly had of driving everyone from the game.

I mean ION had some serious internal problems at the time as well, but of course it's all our fault.

Edited July 2, 2009 by James Dahl

[Locke]

Well for one you are relying on people to do this, these people have lives outside of this game, hopefully, and they are not always around. There was a time frame put on these terms, that makes for something to go wrong on one side and people getting mad. After that it is back to war. Mainly i just talk from experience, I have handled a good amount of reps in my day.

You don't have to rely on one person for anything. Surely out of all of Karma they have enough people to do this. Just have a record somewhere, someone calls a job for that day and does it.

[WcaesarD]

Great point. I didn't even think of that at first.

Yeah, anything to help out the NPO.

[AirMe]

You are not serious? Blaming the NPO for something like this is silly. I believe Bilrow wasn't even in the NPO at that time. Are we to police all of CN?

I'm tired of these arguments, they're all based on hearsay and speculation, the only thing they all have in common is some master plan we supposedly had of driving everyone from the game.

I mean ION had some serious internal problems at the time as well, but of course it's all our fault.

So you are telling me that the NPO had no hand in giving people like noWedge and Bilrow when he ran the GGA, the ability to run amok through out the planet simply by allying themselves with the most powerful alliance in the game at the time?

Are you seriously telling me that you believe that?

Serious internal problems? Really now? News to me and I have talked to the members of that alliance every day for the last 3 years. Indirectly, yes it is your fault because you allowed smaller and relatively insignificant allies to run around liked they owned the place and no one would do !@#$ about it because no one wanted to get rolled by the NPO.

Edited July 2, 2009 by AirMe

[potato]

The problem with every "Karma wants" argument is the same.

Karma doesn't have a mind.

Karma is a group of a large number of people.

Undoubtedly, if you dig far enough, you can find every preposterous opinion in one mind or other somewhere.

So - it doesn't really matter what Karma wants. Because the group wants a lot of things, some of which are certainly contradictory.

What matters is what actions the group takes.

This is of course true for the Hegemony as well.

We'd all be a lot better off if we talked a lot less about motivations and more about decisions.

It's not about what Karma wants. It's about what Karma doesn't want. It's been made clear very early on: Karma will not make anyone disband. Whether it suits your little world of propaganda or not, it's a fact: Karma does NOT want NPO to disband.

You want actions? Peace was offered to everyone. White or not, lenient or not, everyone was offered a way out. Including you. Those are the actions the group took. What have you got to offer?

[Rafael Nadal]

Well for one you are relying on people to do this, these people have lives outside of this game, hopefully, and they are not always around. There was a time frame put on these terms, that makes for something to go wrong on one side and people getting mad. After that it is back to war. Mainly i just talk from experience, I have handled a good amount of reps in my day.

Yes, we put a one month limit to get 90% of those above 4k infra out of peace mode, discounting nations who are being nation sat. This easily allows nations who aren't what we consider alliance active, but check once every 20 days just to keep their nation alive, to be able to comply with these terms. These people were all able to get to peace mode one way or another at one time or another, and one month is plenty for them to get back to war mode.

We lowered the minimum level of reps to what you wanted, iirc 25k tech a month, down from 50k.

As far as being back to war if you don't meet one of the terms. We've already said we'll handle things on a case by case basis. Of course, if something comes out to where it's obvious NPO is deliberately not meeting the terms, we will consider them a breach of the terms, and going back to war is an option to deal with it, just as adding on to the reps numbers is an option to deal with it.

[Ogaden]

So you are telling me that the NPO had no hand in giving people like noWedge and Bilrow when he ran the GGA, the ability to run amok through out the planet simply by allying themselves with the most powerful alliance in the game at the time?

Are you seriously telling me that you believe that?

Serious internal problems? Really now? News to me and I have talked to the members of that alliance every day for the last 3 years.

You've got allies, how effective are you at preventing them from doing things?

[AirMe]

You've got allies, how effective are you at preventing them from doing things?

Actually, I have 2 Protectors right now. And I know my place, I lead a 4 person fledgling alliance that has no right to demand !@#$ from anyone. But when I was in MK, our allies valued our input and we valued there's. It is uncountable how many times how that communication has stopped one of us from doing something that would have endangered us all. And if someone became a security risk, yes we would have confronted them. And that has happened, ask FLY.

But your argument eliminates the fact that you were the most powerful alliance in the game by a long shot. That comes with a responsibility. One that you failed to uphold and which has eventually lead to your downfall. Maybe if you would have taken the time to look how some of your allies were acting you guys could have curbed the problem and still be #1.

[Haflinger]

Maybe if you would have taken the time to look how some of your allies were acting you guys could have curbed the problem and still be #1.

Yes, I would pretty much wholeheartedly support this statement.

[Lord Strider]

You don't have to rely on one person for anything. Surely out of all of Karma they have enough people to do this. Just have a record somewhere, someone calls a job for that day and does it.

It is the fact that multiple people have to be contacted as well. One person could not do this from start to finish.

[Rafael Nadal]

You've got allies, how effective are you at preventing them from doing things?

Bad argument. Our allies, for the most part, don't/didn't try to pull the same BS stuff. Also, we're better at preventing our allies from doing things like that, since most of us wouldn't support them in their ventures of doing so.

[AirMe]

Also, I have read the OP, and to be honest those terms are great.

[Azaghul]

At the OP: If you did that NPO probably would just not aid anyone internally beyond just barely getting them out of bill-lock.

I also don't see why Karma is obligated to give in to NPO stalling for better terms.

Edited July 2, 2009 by Azaghul

[Lord Strider]

So you are telling me that the NPO had no hand in giving people like noWedge and Bilrow when he ran the GGA, the ability to run amok through out the planet simply by allying themselves with the most powerful alliance in the game at the time?

Are you seriously telling me that you believe that?

Serious internal problems? Really now? News to me and I have talked to the members of that alliance every day for the last 3 years. Indirectly, yes it is your fault because you allowed smaller and relatively insignificant allies to run around liked they owned the place and no one would do !@#$ about it because no one wanted to get rolled by the NPO.

Yes I do, the NPO never tried to meddle in peoples affairs. Unless it had to do with the Red Sphere. Go ahead and laugh...

Yes, we put a one month limit to get 90% of those above 4k infra out of peace mode, discounting nations who are being nation sat. This easily allows nations who aren't what we consider alliance active, but check once every 20 days just to keep their nation alive, to be able to comply with these terms. These people were all able to get to peace mode one way or another at one time or another, and one month is plenty for them to get back to war mode.

We lowered the minimum level of reps to what you wanted, iirc 25k tech a month, down from 50k.

As far as being back to war if you don't meet one of the terms. We've already said we'll handle things on a case by case basis. Of course, if something comes out to where it's obvious NPO is deliberately not meeting the terms, we will consider them a breach of the terms, and going back to war is an option to deal with it, just as adding on to the reps numbers is an option to deal with it.

We are still talking about the OP and the terms he set, right?

[WcaesarD]

Also, I have read the OP, and to be honest those terms are great.

At the OP: If you did that NPO probably would just not aid anyone internally beyond just barely getting them out of bill-lock.

I also don't see why Karma is obligated to give in to NPO stalling for better terms.

Yeah, get them out of bill lock and grow your nations naturally, the way everyone else does. All that would happen is that a lot of people would drop AA to aid, and than a lot of people wouldn't do any tech deals for the duration. I don't like this solution at all.

[HeinousOne]

So you are telling me that the NPO had no hand in giving people like noWedge and Bilrow when he ran the GGA, the ability to run amok through out the planet simply by allying themselves with the most powerful alliance in the game at the time?

Are you seriously telling me that you believe that?

Serious internal problems? Really now? News to me and I have talked to the members of that alliance every day for the last 3 years. Indirectly, yes it is your fault because you allowed smaller and relatively insignificant allies to run around liked they owned the place and no one would do !@#$ about it because no one wanted to get rolled by the NPO.

How about the other alliances tied to Valhalla and GGA besides the NPO? How many of them escaped this blame because they too offered up their NS in alliance with those two leaders and alliances.

The damage has been done, the isolation of NPO is complete but yet some folks want more and NPO is not willing to give them that. So now in pursuit of vengeance those people will become that which they hate and NPO is sitting back smiling while they do such. Some of the NPO leaders are pretty damn smart and that is where their diplomatic power came from. Others depended upon that. Continue to play their game and stretch the war out and see the alliance of alliances against them begin to dwindle as nations grow tired of the fight and press their leaders to pull their alliances out of the fight. When that happens you will be lucky if NPO will even agree to the same terms that they proposed.

[Augustus Autumn]

At the OP: If you did that NPO probably would just not aid anyone internally beyond just barely getting them out of bill-lock.

I agree with your assessment. Growth would be massively inhibited, newer nations would not have the attraction of aid packages to entice them to join and you'd see a much slower growth curve overall. National rulers tend to think about what is best for their own people and go to alliances where they will receive the most help - the New Pacific Order would not be able to offer such incentives and thus another means of growth would be curbed.

Yeah, get them out of bill lock and grow your nations naturally, the way everyone else does. All that would happen is that a lot of people would drop AA to aid, and than a lot of people wouldn't do any tech deals for the duration. I don't like this solution at all.

I noted before that the Karma Coalition, namely the Gramlins, have the demonstrated capability to track nations moving onto and off of an alliance affiliation. It's a simple matter to retask NORAD to this mission.

Edited July 2, 2009 by Tokugawa Mitsukuni

[WcaesarD]

I noted before that the Karma Coalition, namely the Gramlins, have the demonstrated capability to track nations moving onto and off of an alliance affiliation. It's a simple matter to retask NORAD to this mission.

yeah, but what if, say 50 or so nations move off for 6 months and 10 aid the hell out of the rest for that whole time, and then "re-apply" to the NPO, are they tracked, does that aid count? Unless you put a membership freeze on, it will be tough.