An Proposed Alternative to the New Pacific Order Peace Terms

[Augustus Autumn]

yeah, but what if, say 50 or so nations move off for 6 months and 10 aid the hell out of the rest for that whole time, and then "re-apply" to the NPO, are they tracked, does that aid count? Unless you put a membership freeze on, it will be tough.

A condition about the membership at the time of the terms being signed is certainly plausible - I actually overlooked this point since I assumed there would be lists made of nations in the New Pacific Order at this time and that a new effort would not be necessary. Making such a listing this very day would even make sense, just in case.

[AirMe]

At the OP: If you did that NPO probably would just not aid anyone internally beyond just barely getting them out of bill-lock.

I also don't see why Karma is obligated to give in to NPO stalling for better terms.

That accomplishes though what people want. The only growth that the NPO would see would be natural nation growth. The community stays in tact, the top nations don't need to come out of peace mode before hand. And all the other things people !@#$%* about are quelled by these.

This really is good set of terms.

[Haflinger]

yeah, but what if, say 50 or so nations move off for 6 months and 10 aid the hell out of the rest for that whole time, and then "re-apply" to the NPO, are they tracked, does that aid count? Unless you put a membership freeze on, it will be tough.

Continue to track ex-NPO nations, and make the aid count if they rejoin NPO.

Not too terribly hard.

[AirMe]

Yes I do, the NPO never tried to meddle in peoples affairs. Unless it had to do with the Red Sphere. Go ahead and laugh...

So, NPO's diplo team never once told an alliance not to sign a high level treaty with MK for the 18 month black curtain? Because, that's meddling.

[Locke]

It is the fact that multiple people have to be contacted as well. One person could not do this from start to finish.

What, one peson normally allocates reps? Again, so long as it's all kept track of, it's not much of an issue. Hell, I can write up a system for it if it means putting these terms closer to completion, and more importantly, closer to peace.

At the OP: If you did that NPO probably would just not aid anyone internally beyond just barely getting them out of bill-lock.

I also don't see why Karma is obligated to give in to NPO stalling for better terms.

At the at the OP: That's the point.

yeah, but what if, say 50 or so nations move off for 6 months and 10 aid the hell out of the rest for that whole time, and then "re-apply" to the NPO, are they tracked, does that aid count? Unless you put a membership freeze on, it will be tough.

As has been mentioned before, tracking nations won't be too hard. And if needed, you could even add to the terms that "any nation that drops the AA and seeks to circumvent these terms without officially leaving the NPO will be acted upon militarily." Rough wording, but I hope you get the idea. Basically, if there's someone trying to pull something on Karma, punish them.

And Tokugawa and Haf covered it as I wrote it. >.>

Edited July 2, 2009 by Locke

[Augustus Autumn]

And Tokugawa and Haf covered it as I wrote it. >.>

Someone once said something about great minds...

[Lord Strider]

So, NPO's diplo team never once told an alliance not to sign a high level treaty with MK for the 18 month black curtain? Because, that's meddling.

Told? or Made someone? We might give suggestion, bit it is almost like you impel that we force peoples hands to do things.

What, one peson normally allocates reps? Again, so long as it's all kept track of, it's not much of an issue. Hell, I can write up a system for it if it means putting these terms closer to completion, and more importantly, closer to peace.

it is more the fact of the time frame, 7 days I think, that is not a lot of time to make sure that all of those things get done.

[Uralica]

I can see that the OP has taken a lot of time thinking about this, and I have to give him credit - I like his ideas.

As someone who's still not 100% convinced that Karma's current ideas would work, this seems like a viable alternative. However, I am also a bit leery of the NPO making a comeback as they did after GWI, so perhaps playing with the numbers a little (like Toku-sama said, it's the principle that he wanted to display, not the numbers) would fix that.

[The AUT]

This is a great idea Toku. However you approached this subject very subjectively and the matter of the fact it is a very emotional subject to some.

In terms of getting things done in terms of paying heavy reparations and moving on, this is a great way to achieve it. Very conciliatory and benefits Karma from a very subjective, yet not emotional, standpoint. Some want to see NPO buried into the ground and want them to bleed so much they'll be in the hospital forever. These terms don't provide for such a fate, and as a result are antagonized.

[Augustus Autumn]

In terms of getting things done in terms of paying heavy reparations and moving on, this is a great way to achieve it. Very conciliatory and benefits Karma from a very subjective, yet not emotional, standpoint. Some want to see NPO buried into the ground and want them to bleed so much they'll be in the hospital forever. These terms don't provide for such a fate, and as a result are antagonized.

The only real emotional victory that can be had here is when you can say, in seriousness, "Mission Accomplished" or something to that effect. The problem is that there is no achievable objective on the current course. The Karma Coalition has issued terms and the New Pacific Order will not take them - end of story. Welcome to eternal war unless someone changes tactics. For better or worse, the initiative lies with the Karma Coalition to make modifications. Should they desire an end to this conflict in some manner which doesn't leave the New Pacific Order thirsting outright for vengeance, that prevents the continuance of the irritating "They're as bad as us!" argument, the painting of those alliances and the like then this is one method. A real victory will bring that emotional sense of accomplishment and I believe these terms do offer such a victory.

The alternative is to simply continue firing missiles and hoping that something will change. I'm personally too pessimistic to rely on chance.

[Drostan]

I still do not believe that Karma will accept any terms that don't involve a portion of those who have remained in peacemode coming out and fighting for some period of time. It may be a smaller percentage of nations, it may be a shorter time period, but this will be part of the surrender I am confident.

I still think that the onus is on NPO to negotiate better terms actively rather than making one counter offer and then sitting on their hands. Karma wants to end this as much as anyone (except NPO heh) because it is holding back many nations in Karma's growth as well. I think that rather than being an issue of maturity it is an issue where Karma does not feel that NPO has approached them in earnest yet. At every turn it has been bidding for public sympathy rather than true negotiation and you can see how that would irritate you. I believe Londo did his best to negotiate and that cooler heads should have prevailed there.

[Augustus Autumn]

I still do not believe that Karma will accept any terms that don't involve a portion of those who have remained in peacemode coming out and fighting for some period of time. It may be a smaller percentage of nations, it may be a shorter time period, but this will be part of the surrender I am confident.

I can understand the desire, but I simply don't see the ultimate point in it all. Why simply destroy nations when you have the option of using their cash production to other ends? At the risk of sounding like I'm making a value judgment here, this specification in the terms does appear to be motivated by little else than spite and some desire to enforce sort of "see what it feels like" term.

I still think that the onus is on NPO to negotiate better terms actively rather than making one counter offer and then sitting on their hands. Karma wants to end this as much as anyone (except NPO heh) because it is holding back many nations in Karma's growth as well. I think that rather than being an issue of maturity it is an issue where Karma does not feel that NPO has approached them in earnest yet. At every turn it has been bidding for public sympathy rather than true negotiation and you can see how that would irritate you. I believe Londo did his best to negotiate and that cooler heads should have prevailed there.

The onus, for better or worse, is for both sides to come to the table and keep what might pass as an open mind. This war has been radical in many ways, and a durable peace will need to be radical as well. I think, in their own minds, every participant sees themselves as having been reasonable. Certainly I think Londo has put in a good amount of time, effort and thought as have the other leaders of the Karma Coalition alliances and, on the other side, Emperor Revenge and the Imperial Officers. The trick is somehow coming down from this impasse to forge some sort of peace which both sides will see as acceptable and which will, in one way or another, provide real benefits to both parties. People simply will not agree to something unless they see some merit in it.

[ditchboy00]

I can understand the desire, but I simply don't see the ultimate point in it all. Why simply destroy nations when you have the option of using their cash production to other ends? At the risk of sounding like I'm making a value judgment here, this specification in the terms does appear to be motivated by little else than spite and some desire to enforce sort of "see what it feels like" term.

The onus, for better or worse, is for both sides to come to the table and keep what might pass as an open mind. This war has been radical in many ways, and a durable peace will need to be radical as well. I think, in their own minds, every participant sees themselves as having been reasonable. Certainly I think Londo has put in a good amount of time, effort and thought as have the other leaders of the Karma Coalition alliances and, on the other side, Emperor Revenge and the Imperial Officers. The trick is somehow coming down from this impasse to forge some sort of peace which both sides will see as acceptable and which will, in one way or another, provide real benefits to both parties. People simply will not agree to something unless they see some merit in it.

Cant they do both? I can see why they want to knock the NPO high level nations down to the mid-upper pack.

[Augustus Autumn]

Cant they do both? I can see why they want to knock the NPO high level nations down to the mid-upper pack.

I simply fail to see the productive reason for this. Is there any other cause aside from "bringing home the message" or "teaching them how it feels" ? Oh, and the damage to the alliance's overall strength, of course.

[ditchboy00]

I simply fail to see the productive reason for this. Is there any other cause aside from "bringing home the message" or "teaching them how it feels" ? Oh, and the damage to the alliance's overall strength, of course.

I think they've already said the reason was that the NPO has a history of getting its revenge. Why not do all you can to make it as hard as possible to achieve?

I like your idea though Toku, but I also like the Karma terms. I still hate you though.

[Augustus Autumn]

I think they've already said the reason was that the NPO has a history of getting its revenge. Why not do all you can to make it as hard as possible to achieve?

Because I think it comes to a point where it's simply not possible to do any more real damage in a situation. When you're dealing with numbers in the region of thousands what's a few more or less? Also, destruction of infrastructure, technology and land does little to affect the national ruler. We all remain in our palaces, offices or bunkers regardless of how many missiles rain down over us.

I like your idea though Toku, but I also like the Karma terms. I still hate you though.

Some things never change

Edited July 2, 2009 by Tokugawa Mitsukuni

[Pete McCavoy]

The issue I see with this is that the aidflow would have to be monitored, and who is to keep NPO nations from sort of...cheating?

like the big NPO nations do tech deals outside of NPO, and the small NPO nations do tech deals outside of the NPO, or to send simple aid they use middle men.

There needs to be a set price they must pay, though i do like the idea of not destroying their means of income, only taxing it heavily.

[Augustus Autumn]

The issue I see with this is that the aidflow would have to be monitored, and who is to keep NPO nations from sort of...cheating?

like the big NPO nations do tech deals outside of NPO, and the small NPO nations do tech deals outside of the NPO, or to send simple aid they use middle men.

At the end of the day, the surcharge would be applied to whatever nations of the New Pacific Order receive, not what the source is. Should Emperor Revenge send $3,000,000 or Achon send $3,000,000, if that money is successfully received by a nation under that alliance's banner the Order would owe $6,000,000 to be paid to nations of the Karma Coalition.

There needs to be a set price they must pay, though i do like the idea of not destroying their means of income, only taxing it heavily.

Perhaps, but any set reparations would then feed into the "You're as bad as us!" argument which people are attempting to avoid. I'm sure there would be room for discussion between the parties actually involved should they see merit in my suggestion.

[Prime minister Johns]

I can see a few flaws with this idea

For every 1 unit of cash or tech received by a NPO nation, they must pay karma 2

Also an aid cycle is 10 days and not 7, you might want to amend that.

And these terms last 10 months, (approx.~30 aid cycles) you might want to adjust that to exactly 30 aid cycles for the sake of neatness.

But consider this.

The NPO's lower ranks are pretty much ZIed and will be receiving a LOT of aid to rebuild and in some cases to get out of bill lock.

So this would make for actual terms that will be in all probability be even higher than those previously stated.

An amendment I would make to this would be to make this clause only apply to external aid transactions.

This will limit their growth but not completely strangle it.

[Bob Janova]

My main issue with this is: who do you think you are to sit in your ivory tower and tell people what terms they should give? (And yes, I appreciate the irony .) Why do you think you can solve a problem that the alliances on the NPO front cannot?

The other issue is that it is much harder to police than a fixed rep amount. With an alliance the size of the NPO, it is tricky to keep track of all the aid that could happen while off AA, and even if that was made a term violation, people would still try it. Also, it seems like a back door route to getting much lower reps, since most nations will be able to grow naturally without aid and then there will be almost zero reps. The reps are important to rebuild Karma alliances, not just to keep Pacifica's growth under control.

I can understand the desire, but I simply don't see the ultimate point in it [damaging NPO's peace mode nations] all

The point is to not leave NPO with a threatening top tier, which they retain by hiding it in peace mode.

[Ogaden]

My main issue with this is: who do you think you are to sit in your ivory tower and tell people what terms they should give? (And yes, I appreciate the irony .) Why do you think you can solve a problem that the alliances on the NPO front cannot?

The other issue is that it is much harder to police than a fixed rep amount. With an alliance the size of the NPO, it is tricky to keep track of all the aid that could happen while off AA, and even if that was made a term violation, people would still try it. Also, it seems like a back door route to getting much lower reps, since most nations will be able to grow naturally without aid and then there will be almost zero reps. The reps are important to rebuild Karma alliances, not just to keep Pacifica's growth under control.

The point is to not leave NPO with a threatening top tier, which they retain by hiding it in peace mode.

What's wrong with having nations in the top tier?

For an alliance who has bragged about gathering intel on the warchest sizes of every NPO nation, you now think it would be too difficult to track aid?

Give me a break Bob.

Edited July 3, 2009 by James Dahl

[kingzog]

I see no "terms" beyond a moratorium on aid. No cash, no tech, nothing. That's not an instrument of surrender but rather an armistice....and precisely the kind of thing that would allow the NPO to come back later and claim that they ultimately "won".

I'm not even part of the Karma coalition and I can tell you this suggestion will be ignored. Or laughed at. Maybe a bit of both. (In my case, the latter.)

Let the New Pacific Order "languish in peace mode forever, or .... exit it and promptly perish from the Earth."

Or they could just accept the real terms that have been offered and end this war.

.... the NPO never tried to meddle in peoples affairs. Unless it had to do with the Red Sphere. Go ahead and laugh...

Consider it done.

No. Stop trying to play mediator. NPO can take the terms laid out, or be destroyed.

But we at MK only wish the best for our PIAT partners.

The best reply thus far.

[Haflinger]

The NPO's lower ranks are pretty much ZIed and will be receiving a LOT of aid to rebuild and in some cases to get out of bill lock.

So this would make for actual terms that will be in all probability be even higher than those previously stated.

In order for the terms to be equal to the original Karma proposal, NPO would have to receive 150K tech and 3.5 billion in the rebuilding period.

I would expect the bulk of their rebuilding aid would be going to the nations below 1K infra, of which there are currently 508. If each get sent 6M in rebuilding aid, that's 3.048 billion dollars, and it starts looking close.

Of course that would also take at least 170 banks to ship in ten days, and from what NPO has been saying their bank totals are a lot lower than that. So...

The numbers - for cash at least - might wind up being higher. Of course NPO have indicated that as long as their banks aren't forced into war mode, they are capable of paying more, so maybe it might work out that way.

I suspect that under this proposal though, the tech reps would drop significantly. NPO doesn't pay its tech sellers 3M/150T anymore, which is what they'd have to do in order to ship tech under this agreement. So they would probably just not ship tech, at least not to NPO buyers.

[D34th]

I could write a wall of text about this matter but for what? Nobody will change their minds, let Karma and NPO deal with it.

I predict that what happened with FAN will happen with NPO and they will get peace just in the next world war.

[kingzog]

I predict that what happened with FAN will happen with NPO and they will get peace just in the next world war.

Then let us make a lengthy period of global peace our primary concern.