An Open Letter to the NPO

[Cortath]

Your sigs have been so throughly discredited its a wonder you bother to keep them there anymore, are you trying to convince us or yourself?

No one from Karma has provided an analysis of the totality of reparations in the context of our economic reality. I have. I invite them to critique it, or offer an independent analysis.

I directed the good man to my signature because he said he was too lazy to find the links. I provided them, because I am nothing if not a gentleman.

Edited July 4, 2009 by Cortath

[WarriorConcept]

No one from Karma has provided an analysis of the totality of reparations in the context of our economic reality. I have. I invite them to critique it, or offer an independent analysis.

I directed the good man to my signature because he said he was too lazy to find the links. I provided them, because I am nothing if not a gentleman.

A fine gentleman at that.

[Cortath]

A fine gentleman at that.

You make me blush.

[Lord of Destruction]

Your posts deeply disappoint me.

Sorry 'bout that Cort. No hate towards you, personally. Only towards those who irrationally hate me.

Anywho, I'm not actually advocating for the line "True Karma, deal with it NPO". I'm just saying that while the Order may complain at this point in time about unfair terms (and they are a tad unfair, but hey - Karma won. Nothing you can do.), you do have to realize people are just going to counter with "lol, why do u think it's called Karma". There's really no reason for you to argue here, since you're not going to convince a single person that terms should be changed.

I'd think about asking Moo to put the Radio Silence back on, to be quite honest. I know I hated Radio Silence while in the Order, but it kept those who can ruin the image of NPO, or in this case possibly make terms worse for the Order, from doing so.

[Lord Rune]

It doesn't really matter what you want, to be honest. People will use you as an example whether you like it or not.

I know.

I'm curious, what was your position in GATO prior to the NPO Viceroyship?

At what time prior to the viceroyship do you mean?

I left GATO before the GATO-1V war, but prior to my leaving I was in the finance ministry, responsible for organising tech deals. I joined TPF and was reasonably vocal against NPO's declaration against GATO. I returned to GATO 289 days ago, whilst the viceroy was still in place.

[HeinousOne]

I'll use a favorite NPO hater answer to your post. Stockholm syndrome?

You only left us yesterday and the venom is spewing out already.

Actually it seems when people leave the NPO it is due to them having strong feelings against what the NPO is doing thus the venom was probably already there before leaving. It's just that it is generally held back as long as the player can hold it back until they can do such no longer. I must admit I am very surprised to see the next such person be LoD himself. If I remember right he was quite often a Body voted Counciler or whatever those guys are called as well as the highly esteemed leader of the recruiting corps.

Perhaps you should be wondering why such a loyal Pacifican, of which I will admit much more of a loyal member then I ever was, would now be speaking up about NPO wrongdoings instead of trying to simply brush him aside as you did.

[Walt Schmidt]

I know I hated Radio Silence while in the Order, but it kept those who can ruin the image of NPO, or in this case possibly make terms worse for the Order, from doing so.

Or, it could have a beneficial affect, perhaps something in your current position you do not want?

[Stargazer Alchemist]

Or, it could have a beneficial affect, perhaps something in your current position you do not want?

Indeed. It seems as though most post from NPO members seem to dig the hole deeper and deeper.

[Cortath]

Indeed. It seems as though most post from NPO members seem to dig the hole deeper and deeper.

Of course they do.

There is no post we could make that would make those who oppose us happy. No words we could say, no actions we could do, other than "die," to appease many of our opponents.

I know that there are some good people among our opponents, those who might wish to give us doable terms, but those people are held back by those who wish eternal war, be it in the form of actual war, or terns that would not possibly take because they are not possible.

[Lord of Destruction]

Or, it could have a beneficial affect, perhaps something in your current position you do not want?

Just because I'm in Mushroom Kingdom doesn't mean I want the Order to burn to the ground. I do not see anything beneficial about the community of Bob hating even more than just the Imperial Command. If Radio Silence is put in place, and this is proven as this always tends to show up, the community will believe you're being oppressed by your own government, and feel a level of sympathy for you.

But what would I know? It's not like I spent the past almost 2 years analyzing these people or anything for the Order.

Or did I? I think I did.

[Walt Schmidt]

If Radio Silence is put in place, and this is proven as this always tends to show up, the community will believe you're being oppressed by your own government, and feel a level of sympathy for you.

And that would be sympathy based on a false premise - something I don't think any Pacifican would want seeing how many falsehoods already abound.

But what would I know? It's not like I spent the past almost 2 years analyzing these people or anything for the Order. Or did I? I think I did.

What you did as a Pacifican is known. What you do now and the motives that drive you are another thing, other than the fact you left an alliance to which you had pledged fealty during a time they were at still war.

[Cortath]

Just because I'm in Mushroom Kingdom doesn't mean I want the Order to burn to the ground. I do not see anything beneficial about the community of Bob hating even more than just the Imperial Command. If Radio Silence is put in place, and this is proven as this always tends to show up, the community will believe you're being oppressed by your own government, and feel a level of sympathy for you.

But what would I know? It's not like I spent the past almost 2 years analyzing these people or anything for the Order.

Or did I? I think I did.

I don't think you want the Order to burn to the ground. I also think you've made some great contribution to the Order in your day, which is why your present actions puzzle me so much.

I don't know why you've left the Order in a time of war though. Did you ask the Emperor for a dispensation? These have been granted before to people who wanted to leave during war and had a compelling reason. The beauty of democratic autocracy is that it is flexible to change according to the material realities that confront us.

[John Michaels]

As someone who spent a few months in the NPO, I must admit I feel some degree of sympathy for the general members because there are some genuinely great people in the alliance (Still <3 you Litha!). They aren't all baby-eating automatons, although there is a certainly a large of sect of general members who more or less fall into that category. Which leads me to my next point: The government of the NPO and the people are two different groups entirely. Namely, the government were, by and large, contemptuous of their members and didn't trust them with the most minute of details. Everything was kept secret for one reason or another. They never explained anything unless someone leaked something on the OWF and they really had no choice. Even then, the barest bones possible would be given, and then some smug idiot (usually Z'ha'dum or one of his ilk) would show up and tell us all we should be good little foot soldiers and not question the unerring judgement of the Great And Benevolent Emperor Revenge.

I think what I'm trying to say is that the Imperial Leadership of the alliance can suck a rusty hydrant for all I care and that whatever sympathy I may have for the common man of the NPO is ultimately trumped by my belief that as long as current leadership is in charge, the NPO will always be a threat to my alliance and my allies.

[Lord of Destruction]

And that would be sympathy based on a false premise - something I don't think any Pacifican would want seeing how many falsehoods already abound.

What you did as a Pacifican is known. What you do now and the motives that drive you are another thing, other than the fact you left an alliance to which you had pledged fealty during a time they were at still war.

It may be a false premise, but it'd at least get y'all some leeway.

Also, I don't remember "pledging fealty". If you could go back and find me ever saying "I pledge fealty", that'd be cool. You won't be able to, by the way.

I don't think you want the Order to burn to the ground. I also think you've made some great contribution to the Order in your day, which is why your present actions puzzle me so much.

I don't know why you've left the Order in a time of war though. Did you ask the Emperor for a dispensation? These have been granted before to people who wanted to leave during war and had a compelling reason. The beauty of democratic autocracy is that it is flexible to change according to the material realities that confront us.

Cort, I've already told you why I left during war over IRC. And no, I didn't ask if I could leave because I didn't feel like dealing with all the guilt trips or yelling that would have come of that.

[Cortath]

As someone who spent a few months in the NPO, I must admit I feel some degree of sympathy for the general members because there are some genuinely great people in the alliance (Still <3 you Litha!). They aren't all baby-eating automatons, although there is a certainly a large of sect of general members who more or less fall into that category. Which leads me to my next point: The government of the NPO and the people are two different groups entirely. Namely, the government were, by and large, contemptuous of their members and didn't trust them with the most minute of details. Everything was kept secret for one reason or another. They never explained anything unless someone leaked something on the OWF and they really had no choice. Even then, the barest bones possible would be given, and then some smug idiot (usually Z'ha'dum or one of his ilk) would show up and tell us all we should be good little foot soldiers and not question the unerring judgement of the Great And Benevolent Emperor Revenge.

I think what I'm trying to say is that the Imperial Leadership of the alliance can suck a rusty hydrant for all I care and that whatever sympathy I may have for the common man of the NPO is ultimately trumped by my belief that as long as current leadership is in charge, the NPO will always be a threat to my alliance and my allies.

I tried to follow your advice, but we don't have hydrants in the United Socialist States of Cortath. Fires are put out with baby blood, sacrificed from our hapless member who are brain-washed as to follow us.

Some people disagree, because once the blood from the babies is gone, the flavor of the baby loses a certain j'na se quois. One of our members suggested to me once that I use a different liquid, but after such an impudent suggestion from an underling, I sent him to the slave mines to mine more gold to complete the project of gilding the 500 foot spittoon that the leader of Cortath traditionally spits in to once a year, such that its beleaguered people might have the privilege of tasting our leader's saliva.

[Waterana]

Really no use in arguing this. As certain NPO members have stated, the NPO ceasing to exist and certain members never playing CN again are the only way some of these people will ever get over their hurt feelings over things that happened years ago and even then some people will never get over them.

People act like no NPO action in their alliance history was ever justified or correct. They never had a valid CB in their entire existance.

Many even bring up things that NPO had little or nothing to do with and blame NPO anyway.

Many of the people who are blaming NPO now were marching right along side NPO while the actions that have them mad are occuring.

The 1000 nations oppressing 29000 nations argument being played out over and over.

But it becomes more clear every day that all Pacifica has to do is hold on for a little while longer. Bob is still pressure packed and another major war looms closer every day. See the NSO/Neutrals incident that unfolded in the past 24 hours for how quickly things can flare up.

Had that escalated a bit more several major blocs would have been in the fray if Gram was going to support the color friendly neutrals.

Finally, it's been pointed out many many times that no one can force an alliance to disband. Atlantis, an example used a page or two ago, chose to give up their alliance and it was without a shot being fired. In their disbandment notice one of their own said they disbanded due to internal problems.

This is a quote from an Atlantean in that thread, he makes several other posts about how this was a majorly internal issue in the thead.

But yeah, the NPO forced Atlantis to disband. Atlantis wasn't in any way responsible for their own demise, they didn't do it because of any problems they were having internally nor did they choose to disband to avoid pixel loss from a potential war with tC.

It was simply Pacifica threatening to use their mighty disbandment nukes that wipe away your AA tag permanently as they had so many times in the past. I was shocked that Admin took them from Pacifica before this war started.

Thank you Vol Navy. I appreciate it that you gave me the Atlantis information I was asking for, but was ignored by those Karmaites I asked in favour of more accusations and bile. Namely the date this incident happened. Now I have a starting point to do some forum searches, both here and on our own boards and can learn more of this supposed 'sin'.

[kingzog]

The government of the NPO and the people are two different groups entirely. Namely, the government were, by and large, contemptuous of their members and didn't trust them with the most minute of details. Everything was kept secret for one reason or another. They never explained anything unless someone leaked something on the OWF and they really had no choice. Even then, the barest bones possible would be given, and then some smug idiot (usually Z'ha'dum or one of his ilk) would show up and tell us all we should be good little foot soldiers and not question the unerring judgement of the Great And Benevolent Emperor Revenge.

Remind me to send you a copy of my resignation from the NPO. You've summarized it quite nicely.

I think what I'm trying to say is that the Imperial Leadership of the alliance can suck a rusty hydrant for all I care and that whatever sympathy I may have for the common man of the NPO is ultimately trumped by my belief that as long as current leadership is in charge, the NPO will always be a threat to my alliance and my allies.

It's not even that, really. The NPO doesn't seem to realize that when this war concludes, there won't be a great line of people wanting to do business with them. Or they do realize this, and have decided to alienate damn-near everyone.

Consider that now that three years' worth of lies have begun to see the light of day -- and I've no doubt more will be revealed as time goes on -- said leaders believe that they have the authority (moral or otherwise) to argue about anything, let alone the feasibility of surrender terms.

But with regard to those, it's clear that if the NPO leadership want to begin a discussion leading to a serious, significant revision of surrender terms then there is only one piece of advice to give them: Resign. Every damn one of you.

And in anticipation of the expected riposte to this:

"Fine. Then die and take your alliance with you. Your members won't thank you for it, but your precious egos will remain intact. And that's all that matters, right?"

[Stargazer Alchemist]

As someone who spent a few months in the NPO, I must admit I feel some degree of sympathy for the general members because there are some genuinely great people in the alliance (Still <3 you Litha!). They aren't all baby-eating automatons, although there is a certainly a large of sect of general members who more or less fall into that category. Which leads me to my next point: The government of the NPO and the people are two different groups entirely. Namely, the government were, by and large, contemptuous of their members and didn't trust them with the most minute of details. Everything was kept secret for one reason or another. They never explained anything unless someone leaked something on the OWF and they really had no choice. Even then, the barest bones possible would be given, and then some smug idiot (usually Z'ha'dum or one of his ilk) would show up and tell us all we should be good little foot soldiers and not question the unerring judgement of the Great And Benevolent Emperor Revenge.

What kind of alliance doesn't even trust their own members?

But with regard to those, it's clear that if the NPO leadership want to begin a discussion leading to a serious, significant revision of surrender terms then there is only one piece of advice to give them: Resign. Every damn one of you.

And in anticipation of the expected riposte to this:

"Fine. Then die and take your alliance with you. Your members won't thank you for it, but your precious egos will remain intact. And that's all that matters, right?"

Pride comes before the fall.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Stargazer Alchemist

[HeinousOne]

I tried to follow your advice, but we don't have hydrants in the United Socialist States of Cortath. Fires are put out with baby blood, sacrificed from our hapless member who are brain-washed as to follow us.

Some people disagree, because once the blood from the babies is gone, the flavor of the baby loses a certain j'na se quois. One of our members suggested to me once that I use a different liquid, but after such an impudent suggestion from an underling, I sent him to the slave mines to mine more gold to complete the project of gilding the 500 foot spittoon that the leader of Cortath traditionally spits in to once a year, such that its beleaguered people might have the privilege of tasting our leader's saliva.

You know Cortath, how many former members have to echo these same words before you guys begin to realize you Might want to take a look into these claims? These claims directly mirror what I said a few times both while a member of NPO and from the outside. We also have Kingzog here agreeing as a former member.

I suppose you could continue with these fluorishing posts of whimsical dismissals of what people have to say as to their experience in the NPO but look where dismissing the opinions of others has gotten you guys? Time to change.

[Azhrarn]

That looks like a degree of regret to me.

Not to me it doesn't, not when you consider the self-serving nature of the timing.

[Azhrarn]

Finally, it's been pointed out many many times that no one can force an alliance to disband. Atlantis, an example used a page or two ago, chose to give up their alliance and it was without a shot being fired. In their disbandment notice one of their own said they disbanded due to internal problems.

This is a quote from an Atlantean in that thread, he makes several other posts about how this was a majorly internal issue in the thead.

Sad, sad, sad. Thanks for the rivalry, TPF, y'all won. Though the self-destruction was brought on by infighting and power-struggles, which could easily have been avoided if a handful of our members acted more maturely than four year olds. Then again, ya can't always get whatcha want...

But yeah, the NPO forced Atlantis to disband. Atlantis wasn't in any way responsible for their own demise, they didn't do it because of any problems they were having internally nor did they choose to disband to avoid pixel loss from a potential war with tC.

I'm well aware of Winston's views. He has his perspective, I have mine. Yes, there was in-fighting. Yes, there were power-struggles. And as I've already explained above, a great deal of that infighting and those power struggles were directly traceable to a current member of the NPO, who was identified as an NPO agent-provocateur by numerous individuals while he was still in Atlantis.

But that's really beside the point. The decision to disband was made in direct response to NPO demands that a Viceroy be installed and that a leading member of the government be expelled. The NPO had no right to make such demands, but they did, and Atlanteans chose to live and fight another day rather than submit to slavery or destruction.

[Cortath]

You know Cortath, how many former members have to echo these same words before you guys begin to realize you Might want to take a look into these claims? These claims directly mirror what I said a few times both while a member of NPO and from the outside. We also have Kingzog here agreeing as a former member.

I suppose you could continue with these fluorishing posts of whimsical dismissals of what people have to say as to their experience in the NPO but look where dismissing the opinions of others has gotten you guys? Time to change.

Though this might surprise you, the New Pacific Order is not the same as it was yesterday, nor even the day before. Nay, dare I say, it was different last year, and the year before that. Were I the gambling type, I might lay a wager that it will be different tomorrow, and even the day next.

I treat these posts with frivolity because that's precisely what they deserve. No alliance plans its internal reforms on these forums, and no alliance accepts outside discussion from non-allies on internal matters. If you want to have a say in how the New Pacific Order governs itself, guess what, you have to be in the New Pacific Order. But I understand that it is much easier taking pot shots from the outside than persuading those within.

You'll also pardon my evil nature if I doubt the sincerity of those who so kindly make suggestions as to our internal matters. While a less suspecting man might invite Kingzog to be Viceroy of the NPO and implement his glorious Great Reform of the New Pacific Order, I am not that man. John Michaels, similarly, was last in the New Pacific Order in late 2007. While you're welcome to accept whatever he thinks about our alliance as true and golden, if you choose to accept the wild premise that we're a bit different than we were yesterday, I bet you could take the leap that we're more different from late 2007 than we are from yesterday.

You similarly, were in our alliance for about 8 months, and haven't been around for about half a year. While you might be capable of offering a decent perspective of a an on-the-ground member for the time you were around, HeinousOne, alliances do change, and that you base your perceptions of the present NPO off of an older NPO speaks more to you, I think, than it does to us.

Similarly, if you took the time to speak to LoD, as I did, I think you would find that he did not leave the New Pacific Order because of some stifling of free spech/thought/non-baby-eating or whatever it is you think we do that is so evil.

You ask us to change, but you are unwilling to change your view of us.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Cortath

[Azhrarn]

I don't think you want the Order to burn to the ground. I also think you've made some great contribution to the Order in your day, which is why your present actions puzzle me so much.

I don't know why you've left the Order in a time of war though. Did you ask the Emperor for a dispensation? These have been granted before to people who wanted to leave during war and had a compelling reason. The beauty of democratic autocracy is that it is flexible to change according to the material realities that confront us.

You're the second person in this thread to make veiled threats against a nation ruler leaving during wartime. Funny, I remember someone stating a while back that the only reason NPO nations had for not resigning was fear of retaliation from their own government, and that statement was ridiculed.

Hmmm, I wonder who that was?

[Cortath]

You're the second person in this thread to make veiled threats against a nation ruler leaving during wartime. Funny, I remember someone stating a while back that the only reason NPO nations had for not resigning was fear of retaliation from their own government, and that statement was ridiculed.

Hmmm, I wonder who that was?

You think it's alright for people to abandon an alliance they made a pledge to, during war time?

[Azhrarn]

You think it's alright for people to abandon an alliance they made a pledge to, during war time?

I wouldn't want to lead people into a war they didn't believe in. If your own people aren't willing to follow you, that's a pretty good indication you're doing something wrong.