Drostan Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 This ultimatum does serve a purpose: to clarify the future nature of this conflict. If NPO will not come out and get beat up a bit because they want to preserve a core of big war chests to help rebuild afterwards... then Karma will have to keep them in the state of war more or less indefinitely. That is what is being decided over the next week or so. It is more or less like an expiration date on the peace terms because they will become quite unreasonable if not accepted within a couple of weeks. At that point it will be clear to NPO and Karma alike that this is going to be an on-going conflict. As has been mentioned by others before, if NPO were to preserve enough of their big warchest nations via peace mode, they would be able to rebuild into a sanctioned alliance very quickly. As such, Karma needs to ensure that NPO is fairly destitute and to be honest I think a lot of people would rather see NPO without a penny in their pocket than paying reps. As I see it, we are now fighting an indefinite conflict as terms will not be accepted any time soon. If this continues long enough we might even get to call this a war of extinction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seerow Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 You know I am curious about how TPF feels about this mass peace on the NPO's part. I mean really look at the stats: Page1 (40 nations per page) TPF: Total NS: 1.7mil -12 nations in war 28 in peace. 810k NS in peace mode -Lowest NS on front page: 16,321 -Lowest Infra on front page: 0.00 NPO: Total NS: 7.1mil -40 nation in peace. 2.67mil (fun side note, NPO's top 10 is stronger than TPFs total top 40) -Lowest NS on front page: 44,392 -Lowest Infra on front page: 5060 Seriously, just look at those numbers for a minute. NPO's top 40 in totals more NS than their best remaining ally. Nobody can doubt that TPF has fought this war fully and their nations and statistics reflect this. The problem people have with NPO in peace is that really unless you knew their prewar strength you would never know they fought a war looking at their upper ranks. This is why people have a problem with NPO's peace mode nations, and why peace won't be achieved without either a majority of them coming out, or crushing terms. That said, as Ive stated before I think Karma's additional reps policy was a bad choice in policy, and there were many more effective things they could have put before the NPO instead to encourage them to come out of peace. I'd personally let them keep their peace mode nations without any nukes, accepting their excuse of being banks. A 10k infra nation without nukes is retarded and should probably go join the GPA. Damn hippies. All the others I'd say force out, but there are other terms you can give to do so that aren't reps. Fact of the matter is this has turned into a PR disaster regardless of the resolve of any of the alliances involved, but it's a train wreck that's already happened, so there's not much to be done but clean up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drostan Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 I love how there is no emphasis that the alliance hiding in peace mode should probably be actively trying to negotiate terms with its attackers. Instead it is up to Karma to grant a full pardon to completely unapologetic enemies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vladimir Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 I love how there is no emphasis that the alliance hiding in peace mode should probably be actively trying to negotiate terms with its attackers. Instead it is up to Karma to grant a full pardon to completely unapologetic enemies. Karma refuses to negotiate or even discuss anything at all. You have seen me throughout this thread asking what terms Karma would like to apply, and you have seen Karma officials ignoring the question time and again. Consider this me asking again, and thus actively trying to negotiate terms with our attackers. Let's see how that goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayOvfEnnay Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Karma refuses to negotiate or even discuss anything at all. You have seen me throughout this thread asking what terms Karma would like to apply, and you have seen Karma officials ignoring the question time and again.Consider this me asking again, and thus actively trying to negotiate terms with our attackers. Let's see how that goes. Oh yes, I completely forgot about how Pacifica was always the first alliance to give peace in their conflicts and how their terms were so easy to abide by! To move out of the way of sarcasm now, it's called the Karma war. Karma. How much clearer could I make this for you? You're being treated this way because you treated others this way. Jesus, it's not a complicated concept people. I'm not a Karma official, I'm not even a member of Karma. I fought on the side that Karma was fighting on, but I'm not a part of that Coalition. So I don't say with certainty that Pacifica will get terms so horrible that the smaller members left in your alliance (I call them MisleadMeatshields, personally. Has a nice ring to it.) come to their senses and leave you all to fend to yourself. I just say it with hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drostan Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 I will also point out that a public thread on the forums probably isn't your best place to negotiate peace terms. I would imagine if you are being ignored it is largely because you've been told to come out of peace mode before Karma will negotiate and you have not complied with that. If you are being ignored then try another approach. Or you could send someone else. Perhaps people just do not like you. That is what I would do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Janova Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 I would expect the terms to be similar to those offered to you on the first day, with a much larger reparation figure (and not just to OV) to go some way to paying for all the nukes you dropped. But you won't get a firm offer until the alliances fighting you feel their objectives are completed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HalfEmpty Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 (edited) Peace mode not so bad. I can cling to my 104 infra while I save up 3 dollars a day to send to Azahul and Kinder, while I secretly hide 5 Euros a day for a new rock. Old Aunt Mariah, jump in the fi-ah, Fire too hot, jump in the pot, Pot too black, jump in the crack, Crack too high, jump in the sky, Sky too blue, jump in canoe, Canoe too shallow, jump in the tallow, Tallow too soft, jump in the loft, Loft too rotten, jump in the cotton, Cotton so white she stay there all night. I'm gonna get you! And I'm gonna get you, and you, and you, I'm gonna get you, and I'm gonna get your stick too! Edit: To Clarify... klanrifie... um... make clear.... Edited May 31, 2009 by HalfEmpty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vladimir Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 I will also point out that a public thread on the forums probably isn't your best place to negotiate peace terms. I would imagine if you are being ignored it is largely because you've been told to come out of peace mode before Karma will negotiate and you have not complied with that. If you are being ignored then try another approach. Or you could send someone else. Perhaps people just do not like you. That is what I would do. You are stating yourself that Karma refuse outright to negotiate with the Order or anyone in it, and most Karma officials in these threads have now explicitly stated that they see this as an eternal war (change you can believe in). And your suggestion is that we 'send someone else'? The reason the emphasis is on Karma to come to the table is because they are the only ones not sitting at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzelger Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 What do you mean when you say "Karma" official? The only people who have posted here that I've seen who actually have say in the matter are Revanche and Virillus, both of whom were clear that they aren't interested in eternal war if it can be reasonably avoided. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Diorno Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 You are stating yourself that Karma refuse outright to negotiate with the Order or anyone in it, and most Karma officials in these threads have now explicitly stated that they see this as an eternal war (change you can believe in). And your suggestion is that we 'send someone else'? The reason the emphasis is on Karma to come to the table is because they are the only ones not sitting at it. Pip pip, top of the morning fine sir, we are all sitting at the table, gathered for a tea party. Your eyes enchant me deeply. But seriously, Karma is going to negotiate peace with you and you know it. Giving peace to an alliance that has billions in every peace mode nation and still has the power to challenge my entire bloc single handedly isn't the greatest idea in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrunkMonkey Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 We expected worse retribution from reps then you guys do now, face it, your cowards and you deserve no sympathy for being cowards and not having the spine to receive what you have dished out multiple times. Cowards? 7.9mil NS to 1.7mil NS and counting. Yeah I don't think you can refer to TPF as cowardly. As for harsh terms, TPF got 4k tech from Athens as a result of WoC, I'm pretty sure MK got it back for you plus interest To 1mil NS and beyond!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Diorno Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Cowards? 7.9mil NS to 1.7mil NS and counting. Yeah I don't think you can refer to TPF as cowardly. As for harsh terms, TPF got 4k tech from Athens as a result of WoC, I'm pretty sure MK got it back for you plus interest To 1mil NS and beyond!!!! pchoooooooooooooooooooooo (sound effects ho!) Valid point, warrants a blast from the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vladimir Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 What do you mean when you say "Karma" official?The only people who have posted here that I've seen who actually have say in the matter are Revanche and Virillus, both of whom were clear that they aren't interested in eternal war if it can be reasonably avoided. They have reiterated their determination not to offer terms. That's another way of saying 'eternal war'. There have been similar (and worse) statements from Karma officials in other threads and privately. But seriously, Karma is going to negotiate peace with you and you know it. Giving peace to an alliance that has billions in every peace mode nation and still has the power to challenge my entire bloc single handedly isn't the greatest idea in the world. An alliance that has billions in every peace mode nation and still has the power to challenge your entire bloc single handedly? We're not magic. We don't shoot lightening out our eyes (contrary to my signature). Most peace mode nations are there with very little (fighting a nuclear war for over a month will do that to you), and those few who still have their original warchests can do what exactly? Post-war they can only send out $18 million every 10 days; we aren't going to be back at 20 million strength any time soon. And speaking of that, I don't know if you've noticed, but we have lost more strength than any other alliance (bar IRON) has ever had -- over 16 million strength, years of growth. What is the total strength of Karma now? I don't know, but it's in the hundreds of millions. How is my 7 million strength alliance, reeling from a prolonged war that cost it millions of infrastructure -- trillions in repairs -- going to challenge you exactly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Diorno Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 They have reiterated their determination not to offer terms. That's another way of saying 'eternal war'. There have been similar (and worse) statements from Karma officials in other threads and privately.An alliance that has billions in every peace mode nation and still has the power to challenge your entire bloc single handedly? We're not magic. We don't shoot lightening out our eyes (contrary to my signature). Most peace mode nations are there with very little (fighting a nuclear war for over a month will do that to you), and those few who still have their original warchests can do what exactly? Post-war they can only send out $18 million every 10 days; we aren't going to be back at 20 million strength any time soon. And speaking of that, I don't know if you've noticed, but we have lost more strength than any other alliance (bar IRON) has ever had -- over 16 million strength, years of growth. What is the total strength of Karma now? I don't know, but it's in the hundreds of millions. How is my 7 million strength alliance, reeling from a prolonged war that cost it millions of infrastructure -- trillions in repairs -- going to challenge you exactly? By 'my bloc' I meant CnG, we all know as soon as this war ends Karma will cease to exist so its hardly a permanent nemesis to NPO. Learning from history, CnG would be high on the Pacifica list of targets post war, maybe lower then those 'allies' who tried to scatter the second you lost the upper hand though. CnG has 626 members total, while Pacifica has ~750, post war you will gain strength quickly with such a high member count, and following NpO's recovery after the last war added with the vaunted Pacifica banking system I don't doubt you will build up strength quickly. Would be unwise to take the bull by the horn's and then release him before he is exhausted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nizzle Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 (edited) I will also point out that a public thread on the forums probably isn't your best place to negotiate peace terms. I would imagine if you are being ignored it is largely because you've been told to come out of peace mode before Karma will negotiate and you have not complied with that. If you are being ignored then try another approach. Or you could send someone else. Perhaps people just do not like you. That is what I would do. I could have sworn these pre-terms only stated they would be added on top of surrender terms, I wasn't aware that the +2 days of terms really meant +2 days of war, like Vladimir had said. I would think it wise that, when NPO comes on and tries to make you look like you don't want to give peace terms, you don't oblige his desire. Certainly, though, something must be done about this situation before the train wreck continues to pile up, as Seerow said. This is an enormous PR disaster, and it's alarming that the alliances involved are not seeing that. Stop focusing solely on the NPO as being the source of a future threat against you, that's just poor defensive planning. Everything should always be considered a possible threat, and your actions should always recognize that possibility. Just a bit of a tip for you. Anyway, I certainly found Vladimir's post to be amusing (again). Edited May 31, 2009 by Nizzle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuel Houston Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Karma refuses to negotiate or even discuss anything at all. You have seen me throughout this thread asking what terms Karma would like to apply, and you have seen Karma officials ignoring the question time and again.Consider this me asking again, and thus actively trying to negotiate terms with our attackers. Let's see how that goes. This is precisely how NPO treated other alliances trying to negotiate terms. I happen to know, having spent months trying to get a response from Pacifica with no meaningful answer. Welcome to your own reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vladimir Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 By 'my bloc' I meant CnG, we all know as soon as this war ends Karma will cease to exist so its hardly a permanent nemesis to NPO. Learning from history, CnG would be high on the Pacifica list of targets post war, maybe lower then those 'allies' who tried to scatter the second you lost the upper hand though. CnG has 626 members total, while Pacifica has ~750, post war you will gain strength quickly with such a high member count, and following NpO's recovery after the last war added with the vaunted Pacifica banking system I don't doubt you will build up strength quickly. Would be unwise to take the bull by the horn's and then release him before he is exhausted. If the NPO suddenly attacks you after the war, I wouldn't be too concerned. I have a slight inkling that another bloc or two would help you out. Not sure who we'd have helping us out. GGA? Maybe not. And the whole 'NPO coming for revenge!' thing has been massively overplayed (admittedly by us at times). I won't deny that there was some bad blood both ways, but we didn't fight the old coaluetion alliances for revenge, we fought them because when all the diplomacy was done that's where the chips fell -- and they fell that way not because we were out for coaluetion blood, but because most (but not all, some we allied with) of the coaluetion alliances were so hateful and fearful that they refused to deal with us, creating a self-fulfilling prophecy vis-a-vis bloc formation. In any case, if we were coming for revenge after this war (by your post those who attacked us and those who abandoned us), we'd be coming after just about every alliance in the world. Again, our odds aren't too strong on that one. So relax, have a smoke, there's no Pacifican bogeyman under the bed that's suddenly going to leap out the second you look away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzelger Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Oh yes, I completely forgot about how Pacifica was always the first alliance to give peace in their conflicts and how their terms were so easy to abide by! To move out of the way of sarcasm now, it's called the Karma war. Karma. How much clearer could I make this for you? You're being treated this way because you treated others this way. This is precisely how NPO treated other alliances trying to negotiate terms. I happen to know, having spent months trying to get a response from Pacifica with no meaningful answer. Welcome to your own reality. This is a terrible attitude. Karma shouldn't be giving up anything that compromises their flexibility. That doesn't mean that they have to taunt the enemy and withhold discourse just to be a jerk. It was crap when the NPO did it to GATO because they thought that GATO "deserved it" (or else because they wanted to compel disbandment, which I've never seen as a Karmic goal for the NPO and would object to if I did), and it would be crap now if that's what was actually going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petrovich4 Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 First: Hi Napoleon Second: Just like TOP gov't, I, and some others engaging NPO, do not personally care for PR nor these forums as a means to communicate our ideas and resolve to sensible, intelligent people. This would only be a 'PR disaster' if we do not intend to back it up (the actual amount and/or the original intention of presenting this). As was stated just above me, if this becomes a 'war of extinction' then so be it. Is my attitude 'short sighted'? Am I letting my emotions control my strategic positioning in the future? If my attitude appears short sighted, it is because I can see more distantly in the past and it is also not moved by Alterego-type posts. If my emotions appear to control my strategic positioning, may I put forth that what else controls strategy, but emotions themselves. Emotions for the past, the present and the future, for my friends and for everyone else. Vladimir, if we state - rather then ask - what the terms are, then that is the way it will be. We are not going to amputate any part of NPO as a community, but we will considerably damage your in game ability in order to lessen the chance of a deja vu. If you don't like it, then perhaps you should build a magical time machine with a magical button. ________________________________________________________________________________ ____________ Regarding NPO peace nations. Yes, it is extremely frustrating, but it is a sensible strategy. There are pros and cons to each strategy. Just ensure that your strategy does not end up like FAN for two years where their community was almost destroyed. See you in 2011? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuel Houston Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 So after 46 pages of this... Who here has the authority from Karma to negotiate terms with Vladimir? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nizzle Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 First: Hi Napoleon Second: Just like TOP gov't, I, and some others engaging NPO, do not personally care for PR nor these forums as a means to communicate our ideas and resolve to sensible, intelligent people. This would only be a 'PR disaster' if we do not intend to back it up (the actual amount and/or the original intention of presenting this). As was stated just above me, if this becomes a 'war of extinction' then so be it. Is my attitude 'short sighted'? Am I letting my emotions control my strategic positioning in the future? If my attitude appears short sighted, it is because I can see more distantly in the past and it is also not moved by Alterego-type posts. If my emotions appear to control my strategic positioning, may I put forth that what else controls strategy, but emotions themselves. Emotions for the past, the present and the future, for my friends and for everyone else. Vladimir, if we state - rather then ask - what the terms are, then that is the way it will be. We are not going to amputate any part of NPO as a community, but we will considerably damage your in game ability in order to lessen the chance of a deja vu. If you don't like it, then perhaps you should build a magical time machine with a magical button. ________________________________________________________________________________ ____________ Regarding NPO peace nations. Yes, it is extremely frustrating, but it is a sensible strategy. There are pros and cons to each strategy. Just ensure that your strategy does not end up like FAN for two years where their community was almost destroyed. See you in 2011? Hi Petrovich! How's things? The credibility of this threat is already undermined, as it has been stated that the reparations will be lowered in the event they get too high (like they are now). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brickyard Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 I'm no fan of NPO. But. Logically speaking, they'd have to be retarded to come out of peace mode. What theyre doing now is smart, despite peoples objections to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 They've already dictated one or did you miss it? Yes they dictated the term in the peace offer they've already gotten and thus the war is over Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vladimir Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 (edited) We are not going to amputate any part of NPO as a community[...] if this becomes a 'war of extinction' then so be it. Hmmm. Glad to see we're coining new concepts all the time through this war, though. Welcome to the new era. Vladimir, if we state - rather then ask - what the terms are, then that is the way it will be. I'd be delighted if you stated what the terms are; you have thus far refused to ask, tell, state, assert, dictate, or anything else. Edited May 31, 2009 by Vladimir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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