Siberian Tiger Alliance Announcement

[Groucho Marx]

The pact muddled itself with "politics."

And it was practically useless for finding reliable trade circles. Aqua is so much better.

Edited May 10, 2009 by Emperor Marx

[Tygaland]

Tyga maybe I can persuade you to sign an economic pact with the blue team?

Do you mean Agora? We'd have to move to the red team.

[bzelger]

And it was practically useless for finding reliable trade circles. Aqua is so much better.

I've never had trouble with trades. This cancellation is in no way a complaint about the way SNOW was run nor the other signatories, save perhaps for the one that forced the cancellation. My nation has been on the white team for the entirety of its existence so far and I hope it stays there for the remainder.

[HeinousOne]

The pact muddled itself with "politics."

In practice the pact seemed more political then economical. Forums hardly used and as a certain member of the white team from a different alliances states, white trades are done when convenient but not really in any overly organized manner that one might think present with a team economic bloc. The economic side becomes undone by the political usage of SNOW by certain alliances.

I'ts understandable, hopefully we can make it more economically focused and review that NAP clause.

I know I'd love to see STA back.

The political side would have to completely disappear from it in my estimation.

I had hoped that White could take a page from Aqua's book and avoid White on White violence because either way, the team loses.

I'm sorry that this was not possible for STA.

I agree that SNOW needs to be looked at, but I'd have much prefered not having the reexamination be prompted by inter sphere conflict.

I realize by now you have understood the mistake you have made by assuming this announcement means hostilities. In fact seeing that the announcement is just now being made shows that this was not made in order to instigate hostilities on the white team but to keep it from happening. The call was made and TPF backed down from the fight with STA's MDP partner. I suppose we could have jumped on TPF as soon as the cancellation period was over but we didn't did we? We dropped a NAP in defense of our treaty partners.

Well, this is sad.

And at the same time, it makes me wish once more that the order of treaties was reversed; NAPs should be worth more. But that's probably just my windmill.

If you want NAP's to be worth more then you should be speaking to alliances that attack close friends of an alliance that the attacking alliance has a NAP with. In essence that nonaggression pact was already broken. We just had to be the ones to officially recognize it in order to right the wrong that was made.

Ahh, so you selectively hone in on one part of the post. Okay.

Last I checked, OPP was not technically a part of SNOW. I don't believe OPP members are a part of SNOW by virtue of being a protectorate group under TPF.

Someone from TPF can correct me if I am wrong on this, though, but I don't believe that TPF's treaties technically apply to OPP members like you're implying.

So, hence we see the problem with alliances that put together a very large wing of protectorates. They can get those protectorates to do their dirty work for them so they can continue to "honor" their treaties.

I'll agree. STA is doing the honorable thing in cancelling before considering any attacks.

They also raise a valid argument that it is unfair to expect them to abide by a principle now that was not extended to them in the last war.

That doesn't mean however that inter-white violence doesn't hurt the sphere and isn't something we should all work to avoid in the future. If they feel this is something they need to do for this war then perhaps at least White can agree to see if we can put such violence behind us after.

White will need to understand how closely STA feels to their MDP partners.

The start of this conversation implied that it was coming, I figured that I'd strike while the moral indignation was hot. Or maybe I just had another deluded rambling come on.

And while you're enjoying throwing my words back on me, don't forget the part where I said that I don't like or hate STA, I just hadn't had the chance to get to know them.

In practice, the cancellation means very little for Zenith. If an STA nation has a combo I need, I'll trade with them and possibly send aid for a harbor. We don't discriminate based on alliances for trades. We are all in this (on White) together. But is there really anything wrong with wanting a treaty that says that and not liking it when neighbors fight neighbors?

The above is a wonderful statement of how unnecessary the economic aspect of SNOW is. How much interalliance economic moves actually took place?

I don't think Tyga would attack TPF. He's not underhanded, he probably felt this decision was neccessary. And hey if he felt it was neccessary then we're not one to question his motives. Good luck to both parties, I hope you guys find an amicable solution to make up on the white sphere.

You bring up a wonderful point. We could have attacked TPF I do believe if one compares the dates. Instead we officially showed how the relationship is and seemed to put the ball in TPF's hands. Is there a war between them and our MDP partner that they attacked still? I would say we defended our ally honorably without having to instigate a white on white war. Why is this not being saluted by white?

Please white team, don't betray the STA.

I fixed this for you

[mhawk]

That is not what you said at all. You stated avoiding white-on-white conflict was not possible for the STA. Where is the white-on-white conflict involving the STA? Enlighten me. Last I looked, the STA was not at war and Molon Labe and DOOM, who we fought up until a few days ago, were not white team alliances.

No, you decided to take a potshot at the STA based on your own fantasies and I called you on it. You tell me where the STA violated the SNOW treaty and then I'll concede the point.

If I wanted to violate the SNOW treaty or wanted to devalue it then the STA would have gone to war with TPF via our MDP with the New Sith Order. Yes, TPF attacked our allies and you are pointing the finger at the STA!

As it turns out, we honoured the SNOW treaty and then followed the withdrawal procedure to the letter. No, I went far and above that and spoke to TOOL who administrate SNOW before I informed anyone else on the SNOW forum of our intent to leave SNOW.

To the detriment of our allied we honoured SNOW and you have the gall to try and paint the STA as the ones pushing for white-on-white conflict. Laughable.

Technically tyga could have attacked before we reached peace with nso et all. I'd say he did a good job avoiding white on white fights. However I will contest that sta hitting ml certainly took place before TPF hit NSO. As far as I'm concerned both parties followed their treaties, no white on white attacks occurred, all sides of that conflict peaced out. There is plenty of room for all parties to revisit the terms and words of snow when this is done.

[HeinousOne]

Technically tyga could have attacked before we reached peace with nso et all. I'd say he did a good job avoiding white on white fights. However I will contest that sta hitting ml certainly took place before TPF hit NSO. As far as I'm concerned both parties followed their treaties, no white on white attacks occurred, all sides of that conflict peaced out. There is plenty of room for all parties to revisit the terms and words of snow when this is done.

Wish this would have gotten posted before I asked in my previous post why no white members were saluting Tyga for expertly working this so there was no war between us.

True we hit ML, a close ally of TPF, but they struck our MDP partner. Considering you used to be with them and your relation as an alliance with them is very close, I would have thought you would have told them that they would possibly be causing a white on white conflict to happen. In this case TPF and ML declared upon two of our MDP treaty partners. It is quite obvious the difference in treatment given to a white alliance. Hopefully the rest of the white team will follow your honorable example and respect that.

[Gruthenia]

You may have missed my response to Tyga on this. It's a few posts above yours. That comment was not directed at STA or MK. I should not have expected you to understand. I apologize.

Sorry for reading the thread from the beginning and not refreshing before replying, sire.

Edited May 10, 2009 by Matthew George

[mhawk]

Wish this would have gotten posted before I asked in my previous post why no white members were saluting Tyga for expertly working this so there was no war between us.

I was busy contributing to some poison clan casualty awards.

[Roadie]

Sorry for reading the thread from the beginning and not refreshing before replying, sire.

Lol! That's what royalty is for.

Edit: Wuts got you so salty? I was polite in my repsonse, why weren't you?

Edited May 10, 2009 by Roadie

[Tygaland]

Lol! That's what royalty is for.

Edit: Wuts got you so salty? I was polite in my repsonse, why weren't you?

I don't think you inferring he was an idiot was polite. Hence he responded as he did.

[HeinousOne]

I was busy contributing to some poison clan casualty awards.

Perfectly understandable, nice to see you here telling everyone else the reality of this. Perhaps now they will not ignorantly try to paint this as an aggressive white on white act by STA.

[Roadie]

I don't think you inferring he was an idiot was polite. Hence he responded as he did.

Hmmm... Was it the should not have expected him to understand part?

If it was, there's a simple reason for that. What I was referring to was 'Inside Baseball' that has nothing to do with MK or STA.

[Roadie]

Perfectly understandable, nice to see you here telling everyone else the reality of this. Perhaps now they will not ignorantly try to paint this as an aggressive white on white act by STA.

I really doubt that's going to help. My faith in such things has dwindled dramatically in the last cuple weeks.

[Tygaland]

Hmmm... Was it the should not have expected him to understand part?

If it was, there's a simple reason for that. What I was referring to was 'Inside Baseball' that has nothing to do with MK or STA.

It came across as patronising so I'm guessing that's why he replied as he did.

[HeinousOne]

I really doubt that's going to help. My faith in such things has dwindled dramatically in the last cuple weeks.

Well, actually now it is impossible for them to make ignorant statements as Mhawk's statement supports what STA members have been saying here. If anyone was to continue to make false statements after his words then they would not be doing such in an ignorant manner but instead in a willful attempt to slander the actions of STA.

[Strykewolf]

Why would some folks try to denigrate STA? It's not really a doable thing.

o7 STA

[Haflinger]

If you want NAP's to be worth more then you should be speaking to alliances that attack close friends of an alliance that the attacking alliance has a NAP with. In essence that nonaggression pact was already broken. We just had to be the ones to officially recognize it in order to right the wrong that was made.

I wasn't criticizing anyone, just expressing general sadness. I don't know the details of your relations with the members of SNOW.

But yeah, I do wish in general that people would place a higher value on NAPs.

[HeinousOne]

I wasn't criticizing anyone, just expressing general sadness. I don't know the details of your relations with the members of SNOW.

But yeah, I do wish in general that people would place a higher value on NAPs.

Didn't mean for my words to you to come off as aggressive. Just trying to point you in the right direction. From my point of view I think we placed proper value upon the NAP.

[Tygaland]

I wasn't criticizing anyone, just expressing general sadness. I don't know the details of your relations with the members of SNOW.

But yeah, I do wish in general that people would place a higher value on NAPs.

Your wishes are naive. A great number of alliances place little value in the MADPs and MDPs when it comes to the crunch let alone NAPs.

Regardless, the STA honoured the NAP section of the SNOW treaty, then cancelled the treaty due to its conflict with our other treaties.

Your belief that once a treaty is signed it can never be cancelled is ridiculous. Moreso when the cancellation was not done to bring about war or avoid it.

[hizzy]

I wasn't criticizing anyone, just expressing general sadness. I don't know the details of your relations with the members of SNOW.

But yeah, I do wish in general that people would place a higher value on NAPs.

Higher value, sure... but higher value than an MDP? Come on now.

They stuck to the treaty, they didn't break it, and once it was over they canceled the treaty.

Call it learning from experience; if you have a "set" which doesn't quite work out the way you wanted it to (as they may have realized through the war), then you change something in the set. They certainly didn't screw anyone over while doing it.

[Kevin Cash]

you upheld your word on the treaties, and though i think you partially defeated the purpose of a nap by withdrawing simply because you did not want to continue upholding the non-aggression agreement (which in my mind is only worth signing to prevent specific conflicts in large scale wars such as this), it is still far more respectable than other actions i have seen performed by the 'karma' faction in this war

[Tygaland]

you upheld your word on the treaties, and though i think you partially defeated the purpose of a nap by withdrawing simply because you did not want to continue upholding the non-aggression agreement (which in my mind is only worth signing to prevent specific conflicts in large scale wars such as this), it is still far more respectable than other actions i have seen performed by the 'karma' faction in this war

If we had then attacked TPF, you'd have a point. But, as it stands, we have upheld the NAP in the treaty and cancelled the treaty afterwards. If honouring the non-aggression pact defeats the purpose of the non-aggression pact then I ask, what is its purpose? It is clearly not in the STA's best interests to remain in SNOW under the current political climate, hence we have withdrawn.

You might also want to read up on the war back in August. It seems the NAP part of SNOW wasn't all that important back then and neither was white-on-white conflict the horror or horrors it apparently is now. Even though there is no white-on-white conflict at the moment...

At least you gave us a backhanded compliment this time.

[Otto Verteidiger]

When you reach a fork in the road, you can't take both paths.

You can run down the sign in the middle and hope to Admin there isn't a lake in the middle, though.

But then you just look stupid

[mhawk]

If we had then attacked TPF, you'd have a point. But, as it stands, we have upheld the NAP in the treaty and cancelled the treaty afterwards. If honouring the non-aggression pact defeats the purpose of the non-aggression pact then I ask, what is its purpose? It is clearly not in the STA's best interests to remain in SNOW under the current political climate, hence we have withdrawn.

You might also want to read up on the war back in August. It seems the NAP part of SNOW wasn't all that important back then and neither was white-on-white conflict the horror or horrors it apparently is now. Even though there is no white-on-white conflict at the moment...

At least you gave us a backhanded compliment this time.

There have been quite a few changes I'd hope since august.

[hizzy]

There have been quite a few changes I'd hope since august.

There has been.

Guys like Tyga are raising the bar every day.