SSSW18 Surrenders

[The AUT]

You really have no idea what is going on. Your conclusions are ridiculous. No one is being harmed here, and no one is remotely close to being disbanded.

The fact 600 million in reps was part of the surrender terms are harsh. Do you deny that? The outcome may be different due to the Karma council but what if they weren't there, what would've happened?

[Ragashingo]

Wanting 600 million in reparations from an alliance that had been beaten like SSSW18 isn't reasonable by any means. That kind of blockbuster term has wrecked alliances in the past to the brink of disbandment.

Which alliances are you referring to?

The fact 600 million in reps was part of the surrender terms are harsh. Do you deny that? The outcome may be different due to the Karma council but what if they weren't there, what would've happened?

Well thats something we can agree on. Karma is a force for good!

Edited May 3, 2009 by Ragashingo

[Captain Flinders]

The fact 600 million in reps was part of the surrender terms are harsh. Do you deny that? The outcome may be different due to the Karma council but what if they weren't there, what would've happened?

Is 600 million in reps in the OP? Nope. Alright, let's go back to something that matters now.

[The AUT]

Is 600 million in reps in the OP? Nope. Alright, let's go back to something that matters now.

It was mentioned and thrown around both in this thread and some others that I've talked to confirmed it to be true. Therefore I have a right to bring it up as I see fit. Things that are said in the OP are just as important as things that aren't said.

Edited May 3, 2009 by The AUT

[Ragashingo]

It was mentioned and thrown around both in this thread and some others that I've talked to. Therefore I have a right to bring it up as I see fit. Things that are said in the OP are just as important as things that aren't said.

No they aren't. Thats just dumb.

[Samuel Houston]

The fact 600 million in reps was part of the surrender terms are harsh. Do you deny that? The outcome may be different due to the Karma council but what if they weren't there, what would've happened?

Yes, I do deny that.

I was not party to the actual negotiation, but have logs of them. The numbers you state are not accurate according to my most recent knowledge.

LSR is basically buying 1000 tech from SSSW18 for $30,000,000. I can't speak for the other members of the terms, but I doubt it is much different.

For an alliance that did not have good warchests at the time, being given a cash infusion post-war is actually a pretty good gesture if you ask me.

[The AUT]

No they aren't. Thats just dumb.

Alright, let me bring up an example. Remember when Valhalla wanted certain members from STA ejected due to personal grudges? It wasn't brought up in the OP however there was more to it than just random demands. How is this any different?

In an attempt to get back on topic tech deals aren't a harsh punishment. What MOON attempted to do was, in fact, very harsh. So harsh, it seems, that Karma personally stepped and basically re-did everything.

[Joe Stupid]

Alright, let me bring up an example. Remember when Valhalla wanted certain members from STA ejected due to personal grudges? It wasn't brought up in the OP however there was more to it than just random demands. How is this any different?

In an attempt to get back on topic tech deals aren't a harsh punishment. What MOON attempted to do was, in fact, very harsh. So harsh, it seems, that Karma personally stepped and basically re-did everything.

You have an annoying habit of speaking about something which you do not know.

[Ragashingo]

Alright, let me bring up an example. Remember when Valhalla wanted certain members from STA ejected due to personal grudges? It wasn't brought up in the OP however there was more to it than just random demands. How is this any different?

In both cases what actually happened is far more important than what didn't.

In an attempt to get back on topic tech deals aren't a harsh punishment. What MOON attempted to do was, in fact, very harsh. So harsh, it seems, that Karma personally stepped and basically re-did everything.

So... Karma should be praised for continuing to bring fairness back to CN. Got it.

[The AUT]

You have an annoying habit of speaking about something which you do not know.

Great attempt at refuting my claims. When both MOON and SSSW18 both admit to such an occurance it is still denied vehemently by those who want to defend the actions of the indefensible. I guess it's who's loudest that gets heard rather than those who actually try and make a point.

So... Karma should be praised for continuing to bring fairness back to CN. Got it.

Well, after what did happen in this incident, yes, they are. And I honestly do believe it is due to Karma's honest attempt at making this game more fun that this happened. But Is MOON? Hell no, they're no better than the Hegemony they fought for last war.

Edited May 3, 2009 by The AUT

[Ragashingo]

Well, after what did happen in this incident, yes, they are. And I honestly do believe it is due to Karma's honest attempt at making this game more fun that this happened. But Is MOON? Hell no, they're no better than the Hegemony they fought for last war.

Oh? How so? I mean they did offer up far more lenient peace terms that we typically see didn't they?

[denkimon]

Golly, you whiners working in shifts here?

[The AUT]

Oh? How so? I mean they did offer up far more lenient peace terms that we typically see didn't they?

Demanding 600 mil in reps really isn't much of an improvement. Seek to either end tyranny or just become a part of it, that's what I see it as.

Golly, you whiners working in shifts here?

Stating an opinion isn't whining. When you post something in a public forum you can expect to be challenged. If you can't take that challenge and just call it "whining" then I suppose you weren't prepared for such an outcome.

[OOC]Off to bed[/OOC]

Edited May 3, 2009 by The AUT

[Posta0]

Wow guys please continue to tell your misinformed "facts" in an effort to smear an alliance.

You do not know all the facts, you were not in the negotiations, you do not know the logic and reasons behind asking for reparations initially and then subsequently lowing and removing them. What you have is hear say and is not accurate.

Your attempting to smear an alliance for something that we did not do, it was a negotiations several things were thrown out and discussed and in the end MOON, not Karma, decided not to go with reparations. I like how you continue to bash an alliance for doing the right thing, realizing their mistake and fixing it. So go ahead bash us all you want for doing the right thing.

[Matthew Conrad]

Demanding 600 mil in reps really isn't much of an improvement. Seek to either end tyranny or just become a part of it, that's what I see it as.

Stating an opinion isn't whining. When you post something in a public forum you can expect to be challenged. If you can't take that challenge and just call it "whining" then I suppose you weren't prepared for such an outcome.

[OOC]Off to bed[/OOC]

It's not much of a challenge because many alliances have inherently already answered it with white peace terms.

Edited May 3, 2009 by Matthew Conrad

[Ragashingo]

Wow guys please continue to tell your misinformed "facts" in an effort to smear an alliance.

You do not know all the facts, you were not in the negotiations, you do not know the logic and reasons behind asking for reparations initially and then subsequently lowing and removing them. What you have is hear say and is not accurate.

Your attempting to smear an alliance for something that we did not do, it was a negotiations several things were thrown out and discussed and in the end MOON, not Karma, decided not to go with reparations. I like how you continue to bash an alliance for doing the right thing, realizing their mistake and fixing it. So go ahead bash us all you want for doing the right thing.

In the end you guys did the right thing, and thats what counts. Just shrug these haters off, their dispute with you will be forgotten soon.

[The Poet]

itt Misr fights for the Hegemony and uses 'You're no better than the Hegemony!' as an insult/accusation..

[Posta0]

Stating an opinion isn't whining. When you post something in a public forum you can expect to be challenged. If you can't take that challenge and just call it "whining" then I suppose you weren't prepared for such an outcome.

[OOC]Off to bed[/OOC]

could you please show me where the 600 million shows up in the OP?

O thats right, its not there. You know why its not there? Because it was never a final term, it was a discussion point. It was a discussion point because MOON believed SSSW18 should have to help pay for the nuclear damage caused to our members for their renig on a no nuke deal that they first offered us and later took back. The 600 million was then negotiated down to an apology, because MOON did not want to be oppressive or cause sssw18 to much financial damage. The apology was even dropped when sssw18 later explained their whole gov didn't approve it before it was offered to us so it was never officially approved.

In this whole process MOON did what was respectable and worked with SSSW18 throughout and the terms that MOON ended up offering was what you see in the OP, with no monetary reparations, in fact we are giving them money.

[denkimon]

So let me get this straight.

This thread is at 23 pages because of a PROPOSED term by a victorious alliance after being triple-attacked, and that was negotiated away during talks that led to a mutually amicable agreement and was never part of a final agreement, AND that was brought up AFTER white peace had been offered to and rejected by the other party?

Is that right?

Or is it because the victorious alliance imposed mutually beneficial terms, but terms nonetheless, on the defeated? When in fact defeated aggressors should instead be allowed to make their own terms?

If you're looking for a brave new world, I think that you've got it right here. 23 pages for THIS.

Also:

Stating an opinion isn't whining. When you post something in a public forum you can expect to be challenged. If you can't take that challenge and just call it "whining" then I suppose you weren't prepared for such an outcome.

You are correct. Stating a challenging opinion from the perspective of the aggrieved and having no recourse is not whining. But doing it over and over and over and over is.

Edit: 23 pages, not 22

Edited May 3, 2009 by denkimon

[Augustus Autumn]

Again, what we see here is an example of the need for the "Karma" movement to work toward retaining the moral highground.

Clearly, something happened during the course of negotiations which was proposed by the Majestic Order of Orange Nations and which could be seen as above-and-beyond what might be considered reasonable. Until proof is shown actually giving a number this point will be bickered over endlessly. Clearly, the matter has become known to the general public and, as with public things, a public opinion and public reckoning is now being asked for. Did MOON do something out of line? I guess so. Do we have the right to mandate it being correct or not? I guess the mob does as well. The best way out for this apparent breach of conduct will likely involve the party or parties at MOON giving full disclosure of the proceedings as well as issuing an apology (if one is indeed warranted). Otherwise, this misunderstanding/error/mistake will continue to fester and fuel those who suspect the "Karma" movement is nothing more than an organized tech raid (the term was once applied to the Coalition War and I find numerial consistencies in this war).

Whatever it was that happened, the supreme commanders of the "Karma" movement stepped in and sorted the matter out. Personally, the terms do not seem to be terribly out of line though I would question the rationale behind the changover from the offer from white peace to an offer which included mandated tech deals. Considering the prices being paid and the required amounts I think the only major concern SSSW18 should have is making sure enough young nations are on hand to profit handsomely from this deal. Regardless, it appears as though the movement in general has seen fit to work out an amicable set of terms which both parties have agreed to and that is simply that.

The issue does appear dead unless further clarification is forthcoming. Good luck to SSSW18 on the road to recovering from this war. Good luck to the Lone Star Republic and the fine ladies and gentlemen there. To the rest, good luck to you too and may we all speak under better circumstances in the future.

[The Poet]

Karma is just a giant organized tech-raid.. Worked pretty well if I do say so myself.

btw you guys started it, nananananana

[Augustus Autumn]

Karma is just a giant organized tech-raid.. Worked pretty well if I do say so myself.

btw you guys started it, nananananana

Who, precisely, are "you guys"? If you're referring to the Initiative I recommend checking our database and taking note of the date of inception. If you're referring to the alliance grouped together and given the name "Hegemony" then I would invite a more detailed statement so as to avoid generalities and incorrect assignment of blame.

[The Poet]

Who, precisely, are "you guys"? If you're referring to the Initiative I recommend checking our database and taking note of the date of inception. If you're referring to the alliance grouped together and given the name "Hegemony" then I would invite a more detailed statement so as to avoid generalities and incorrect assignment of blame.

That's just the attitude I'm talking about.

[Augustus Autumn]

That's just the attitude I'm talking about.

My attitude has been nothing if not as objective as possible and congratulatory toward the alliances involved in resolving this issue as well as the leadership of the "Karma" movement for correcting some sort of undefined issue which could have set a poor tone for the war. If you have specific fault with something I've said and wish to address it then, please, do so. Otherwise, I fear, your commentary is most unproductive to the discussion as a whole.

[The Poet]

My attitude has been nothing if not as objective as possible and congratulatory toward the alliances involved in resolving this issue as well as the leadership of the "Karma" movement for correcting some sort of undefined issue which could have set a poor tone for the war. If you have specific fault with something I've said and wish to address it then, please, do so. Otherwise, I fear, your commentary is most unproductive to the discussion as a whole.

Good lord..