Imperial Decree

[Tulafaras]

Look we all know Pacifica is a stickler to detail when it comes to military action. Odds are this was the final night of negotiations per their plan. As the punishment was all the way down to a 7 day war I don't see how much farther down they would've gone since OV was so hard pressed to attack Mhawk for things he apparently never did.

indeed, which is what i said.

NPO and TORN never wanted these negotiations to succeed. That is rather evident from the way things were handled.

The issue behind the whole crisis was minor at best, and something which could have been solved within 24h at most if civil diplomacy had been used. Instead the usual approach was used ("we are the NPO now heel damn it!") and OV backed by their allies did not fold.

To clarify, in my humble opinion NPO wanted this war, they planned for it from the minute they sent a significant amount of nations into peace mode, and used the negotiations to stall until the required waiting period of those nations was over and preparations complete.

That is my problem with this entire affair, if NPO had simply declared war on Friday i'd have probably made less noise here, instead they negotiated until their obviously preplanned attack was already on the way. Frankly such behaviour disgusts me.

You cannot have it both ways, either they wanted peace (as they said they did) or they wanted war (as their actions show).

[The Poet]

Shining beacon of change indeed.

Oh get off it.

[magicninja]

If only he had come back to the room, our next offer had nothing to do with mhawk, all we wanted to ask in exchange for Seth was the source. But we never got the chance since pacifica was so trigger happy.

Was it a clusterschmuck? Yeah. A lot of !@#$ all went wrong at the wrong time. It's fairly obvious Moo woulda heard you out if he had the chance. The choice to attack at a certain time unless Moo said no was imo a bad move in retrospect but I'm sure you can understand that planning ahead is part of the game. This is going to be a huge war. The timing I'm sure was critical to what Pacifica had planned. If there was no deal by deadline then war was imminent.

It seemed to me that Moo was hoping you would accept the 7 day deal there before he got cutoff. He did seem to be in a rush like that deadline was coming and he wanted to give you every chance to get a deal before it hit. Unfortunately fate chose otherwise it seems.

[bzelger]

Was it a clusterschmuck? Yeah. A lot of !@#$ all went wrong at the wrong time. It's fairly obvious Moo woulda heard you out if he had the chance. The choice to attack at a certain time unless Moo said no was imo a bad move in retrospect but I'm sure you can understand that planning ahead is part of the game. This is going to be a huge war. The timing I'm sure was critical to what Pacifica had planned. If there was no deal by deadline then war was imminent.

It seemed to me that Moo was hoping you would accept the 7 day deal there before he got cutoff. He did seem to be in a rush like that deadline was coming and he wanted to give you every chance to get a deal before it hit. Unfortunately fate chose otherwise it seems.

So you agree that Pacifica screwed up and declared war when they shouldn't have then? Why are you still arguing here?

Edited April 21, 2009 by bzelger

[magicninja]

indeed, which is what i said.

NPO and TORN never wanted these negotiations to succeed. That is rather evident from the way things were handled.

The issue behind the whole crisis was minor at best, and something which could have been solved within 24h at most if civil diplomacy had been used. Instead the usual approach was used ("we are the NPO now heel damn it!") and OV backed by their allies did not fold.

To clarify, in my humble opinion NPO wanted this war, they planned for it from the minute they sent a significant amount of nations into peace mode, and used the negotiations to stall until the required waiting period of those nations was over and preparations complete.

That is my problem with this entire affair, if NPO had simply declared war on Friday i'd have probably made less noise here, instead they negotiated until their obviously preplanned attack was already on the way. Frankly such behaviour disgusts me.

You cannot have it both ways, either they wanted peace (as they said they did) or they wanted war (as their actions show).

Actually the war was on all of those nights and someone kept calling it off to give OV more time. I was there waiting with everyone else to hear news if the thing was going live or not. I think the maximum time to wait just finally ran out last night.

[magicninja]

So you agree that Pacifica screwed up and declared war when they shouldn't have then? Why are you still arguing here?

I'm saying there is an explanation and not that they meant to purposefully attack during ongoing negotiations which has been a regular chant around here as of late.

[Portugal]

I'm saying there is an explanation and not that they meant to purposefully attack during ongoing negotiations which has been a regular chant around here as of late.

So you mean a bunch of NPO and TORN nations "accidently" attacked OV? That explanation is way better, I agree.

[Electron Sponge]

So you mean a bunch of NPO and TORN nations "accidently" attacked OV? That explanation is way better, I agree.

You're an old timer like me, surely you remember Spazzen, NDN, and "Oops declared on the wrong side" don't you? Evidently Moo is about the same caliber of leader.

[rabonnobar]

Oh get off it.

Threats to give no terms/harsh terms? Check. Short, rude, non-answering responses when called out? Check.

Guys, the hegemony 2.0 is upon us!

[magicninja]

So you mean a bunch of NPO and TORN nations "accidently" attacked OV? That explanation is way better, I agree.

No, I'm saying the execution order was a bad idea compounded by the extenuating circumstance of Moo getting pinged from IRC. The attacking NPO nations had no way of knowing that negotiations were ongoing. I'd really love to see the logs of that convo after Moo got pinged.

Edited April 21, 2009 by magicninja

[kingzog]

I think Bigwoody did wait but since NPO had gone off attacking on orders they had in hand he had to give the order to attack per the plan I suppose. Then waited for Moo to reconnect and see WTF happened before posting his DoW.

Plausible no?

Plausible? Sure. But the 'fake dropped connection ruse' is neither more nor less plausible. (And no, I don't believe Moo was faking having connection issues. That would be silly.)

All I learned from this thread is that we shouldn't have bothered with these peace negotiations to begin with.

You know, if I bite my tongue any harder there will be a red fountain spewing from my mouth.

[Desperado]

So you mean a bunch of NPO and TORN nations "accidently" attacked OV? That explanation is way better, I agree.

You mean OV/VE accidently took info from blackpebble, right? And they also accidently offered to do nothing as a counter during 'negotiations,' right?

EDIT: They also accidently recruited one as well.

Edited April 21, 2009 by Desperado

[Portugal]

No, I'm saying the execution order was a bad idea compounded by the extenuating circumstance of Moo getting pinged from IRC. The attacking NPO nations had no way of knowing that negotiations were ongoing. I'd really love to see the logs of that convo after Moo got pinged.

Oh I see, NPO military incompetence. The entire Pacifican government machine, standing to a grinding halt and trowing their alliance to a war because their leader had bad IRC connection. Heh.

[King Srqt]

Threats to give no terms/harsh terms? Check. Short, rude, non-answering responses when called out? Check.

Guys, the hegemony 2.0 is upon us!

If only any of them were in government positions and could actually make any of that happen you might have a point!

I think I can safely speak for Karma in saying we do not desire to force anyone to disband or keep anyone in eternal war.

[Porkers.]

Threats to give no terms/harsh terms? Check. Short, rude, non-answering responses when called out? Check.

Guys, the hegemony 2.0 is upon us!

Ain't it just swell?

[King Srqt]

You mean OV/VE accidently took info from blackpebble, right? And they also accidently offered to do nothing as a counter during 'negotiations,' right?

EDIT: They also accidently recruited one as well.

I guess I will address this false "point" here as well

The first counter was to have seth be removed and barred from gov. That was denied, then moo admitted that his allies knowingly accepted spied info to gather the CB. Things changed after that.

[magicninja]

Oh I see, NPO military incompetence. The entire Pacifican government machine, standing to a grinding halt and trowing their alliance to a war because their leader had bad IRC connection. Heh.

I don't think it was incompetent. You're reaching. They did what they thought they had to do to prepare for a possible global wide war. If it was peace or war last night at update because of the timing of a greater plan then what was supposed to happen in that situation happened. All Moo's crappy inet connection did was cut short what could have been the critical peace making minutes before that deadline hit. Which is very tragic indeed.

[Porkers.]

I don't think it was incompetent. You're reaching. They did what they thought they had to do to prepare for a possible global wide war. If it was peace or war last night at update because of the timing of a greater plan then what was supposed to happen in that situation happened. All Moo's crappy inet connection did was cut short what could have been the critical peace making minutes before that deadline hit. Which is very tragic indeed.

Pathetic excuse and you know it. Bite the bullet and accept it. You can dance around the facts all you like, it doesn't change a thing. OV were attacked by a cow and some ducks. Some other glowing farm animal is going to be joining the fun soon, hopefully.

[Desperado]

I guess I will address this false "point" here as well

The first counter was to have seth be removed and barred from gov. That was denied, then moo admitted that his allies knowingly accepted spied info to gather the CB. Things changed after that.

I forgot to mention that those logs sponge posted were from OV/VE as they had the same people present in all 4 sets. I know who was there from the NPO/TORN side and the same people were not present for all parts.

[magicninja]

Pathetic excuse and you know it. Bite the bullet and accept it. You can dance around the facts all you like, it doesn't change a thing. OV were attacked by a cow and some ducks. Some other glowing farm animal is going to be joining the fun soon, hopefully.

Pathetic is too far. Poor yes. There should have been a contingency if Something happened where moo was unable to get the word out. I'm not afraid of war I've been craving it for months. I'm just defending some old allies and friends against claims they purposefully attacked while negotiations were ongoing. For all the attacking nations knew the negotiations were over and it was their orders to attack unless they heard otherwise.

I may be wrong. I may be way wrong but just looking at how it all went down and using the facts this is the most reasonable explanation I can see. Does it change anything? no probably not. I don't think you all are gonna fall in love with NPO just because they didn't mean to attack during negotiations.

[King Srqt]

I forgot to mention that those logs sponge posted were from OV/VE as they had the same people present in all 4 sets. I know who was there from the NPO/TORN side and the same people were not present for all parts.

Ok so we will not address what I said and just go to another point. The logs were made available to a lot of interested and invested parties after the talks. The people that received them should be trustworthy but it is possible that a leak sprung along the way. We are no less vulnerable to Vox spies than you.

I am also not sure how accurate your statement about how complete the logs would be is since I am sure that multiple reps from one alliance could easily piece the logs together to form a complete set now couldn't they?

[Morey 2k7]

I forgot to mention that those logs sponge posted were from OV/VE as they had the same people present in all 4 sets. I know who was there from the NPO/TORN side and the same people were not present for all parts.

So you are now saying OV/VE have been passing on info to Vox?

Get off it, we know Vox has spies everywhere, we don't know however how far up the ladder these spies are and what access they have to each alliances forums who were present. Plus add on that the logs were prolly passed around many allies and posted on many different forums.

Basically there are endless possibilites of how Vox got the logs, so I wouldn't start throwing out accusations of OV/VE giving them to Vox.

[Desperado]

So you are now saying OV/VE have been passing on info to Vox?

Get off it, we know Vox has spies everywhere, we don't know however how far up the ladder these spies are and what access they have to each alliances forums who were present. Plus add on that the logs were prolly passed around many allies and posted on many different forums.

Basically there are endless possibilites of how Vox got the logs, so I wouldn't start throwing out accusations of OV/VE giving them to Vox.

Up until last night OV knowingly had a blackpebble spy leader in their government.

Edited April 21, 2009 by Desperado

[magicninja]

I'm actually a Vox spy.

Good acting no.

I say the hell with it start a log dump thread so all the logs are out in the open and people can decide for themselves.

Since logz aren't hitting the street at an amazing pace I'm guessing both sides have a little to lose by showing full disclosure. (Now let's see what side says I have nothing to hide! and shows....muahahahahahahaha)

[King MyLife]

THIS IS EPIC!