Vox and NPO: Where is the love?

[Farrin Xies]

Let me preface this by saying I have not been active on planet Bob for long, and that I love the NPO and the camaraderie that I feel as a member of it. Also, I of course don't speak for the NPO, simply as a curious denizen of planet Bob. With that said, I wanted the community's opinion on why Vox/FAN/ are so hateful towards NPO, and, admittedly, vice-versa. The way I see it, we have our differences in thought, but I certainly don't see why anytime a discussion comes up about either group it quickly devolves into mudslinging and name-calling. Even worse, discussions that have nothing really to do with Vox nor NPO have a way of careening suddenly down a path filled with the same taunts and repartee one would find in an elementary school playground. I suppose my question, then, is why? We have our differences. We will always have our differences. Why do we allow our differences to cloud our emotions and our actions?

Discuss.

[OOC]I ask this mostly in-character, but I'm also curious if anyone finds this to be the case out-of-character as well.[/OOC]

[Sephiroth]

You guys are at war with them and have given them no hope of ever getting peace, so its not really surprising.

[Farrin Xies]

I don't debate that; I suppose I should make my position more clear. The insults slung on both sides go beyond some form of competitive trash-talking that you'd find in a "war" [OOC:]game[/OOC] if you want to call what the NPO is engaged in against Vox and become personal attacks.

Edited April 3, 2009 by farrin

[Sal Paradise]

Maybe it's fun.

[Paradigm]

I don't debate that; I suppose I should make my position more clear. The insults slung on both sides go beyond some form of competitive trash-talking that you'd find in a "war" [OOC:]game[/OOC] if you want to call what the NPO is engaged in against Vox and become personal attacks.

I'm guessing if you wore the VOX AA for a week or two you would start to feel the reasons why

[Sephiroth]

You have overwhelming numbers on your side, so they can't do much in-game and are forced to fight back using other means. If you guys gave them peace things would be much different, you guys don't need to be enemies, well mostly talking about FAN here. Vox is a bit unique in their purpose for forming, but the more people you EZI/PZI the more recruitment Vox gets as they can't join most alliances anymore.

Edited April 3, 2009 by Methrage

[Farrin Xies]

I'm guessing if you wore the VOX AA for a week or two you would start to feel the reasons why

You guys are at war with them and have given them no hope of ever getting peace, so its not really surprising.

1. A person wears the Vox AA.

2. Because NPO is at war with Vox, the person wearing the AA becomes a target.

3. Because the person is now a target, Vox is upset with NPO.

Is that about right? If so, that's up there with some of the most ridiculous excuses I've ever heard.

[Reachwind]

You should start by reading this: http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/FAN-WUT_War

Next read this: http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Vox_Populi_%282nd%29

[Drai]

Maybe it's fun.

One would hope it is, otherwise there seems to be minimal reason for the whole rivalry.

[Paradigm]

Is that about right?

I dont think so

[Sephiroth]

1. A person wears the Vox AA.

2. Because NPO is at war with Vox, the person wearing the AA becomes a target.

3. Because the person is now a target, Vox is upset with NPO.

Is that about right? If so, that's up there with some of the most ridiculous excuses I've ever heard.

I was mostly referring to FAN. However a nation may become an enemy upon joining Vox, but by putting them on EZI they become your eternal enemy and can't be anything else. If they were able to fight you, admit defeat and move on, then maybe they would.

Edited April 3, 2009 by Methrage

[Farrin Xies]

I dont think so

Then please explain it to me, 'cause those two quotes combine to say that to me. It's late and I'm tired, so maybe my brain's misfiring on me, I'm not sure.

[Magnum T. Gundraw]

When there is no hope for conventional victory, you move to the unconventional.

[sky dragon]

1. A person wears the Vox AA.

2. Because NPO is at war with Vox, the person wearing the AA becomes a target.

3. Because the person is now a target, Vox is upset with NPO.

Is that about right? If so, that's up there with some of the most ridiculous excuses I've ever heard.

I see vox is one you don't what to got to right now. Am I correct?

Edited April 3, 2009 by sky dragon

[Farrin Xies]

I see vox is one you don't what to got to right now. Am I correct?

I'm sorry, maybe it's because I'm tired, but I have no idea what you just said...

[Paradigm]

Then please explain it to me, 'cause those two quotes combine to say that to me. It's late and I'm tired, so maybe my brain's misfiring on me, I'm not sure.

Has the policy of permanent EZI for any nation flying the Vox AA been canceled?

The point is you don't just join vox and go on your merry way once you had your fun.

[Farrin Xies]

Has the policy of permanent EZI for any nation flying the Vox AA been canceled?

The point is you don't just join vox and go on your merry way once you had your fun.

There are some, like Jonathan Brookbank, who certainly are having issues like this, yes. But as the "Free Jonathan" side likes to remind us all at every chance, there were some founders of Vox that went, petitioned for the ZI status to be removed, and are now living their lives in a matter that I would assume is normal. Did they not wear the Vox AA at one time?

[Gruthenia]

Vox's only real weapons are their words, and the hegemony, unable to defeat Vox via conventional fighting, must respond in kind. Except some of the people fighting this war of words really suck at it, especially on the hegemony side since they get a lot of random drones discovering OWF and deciding it's urgent they defend their alliance's honor against all comers.

[Caliph]

Let me preface this by saying I have not been active on planet Bob for long, and that I love the NPO and the camaraderie that I feel as a member of it. Also, I of course don't speak for the NPO, simply as a curious denizen of planet Bob. With that said, I wanted the community's opinion on why Vox/FAN/ are so hateful towards NPO, and, admittedly, vice-versa. The way I see it, we have our differences in thought, but I certainly don't see why anytime a discussion comes up about either group it quickly devolves into mudslinging and name-calling. Even worse, discussions that have nothing really to do with Vox nor NPO have a way of careening suddenly down a path filled with the same taunts and repartee one would find in an elementary school playground. I suppose my question, then, is why? We have our differences. We will always have our differences. Why do we allow our differences to cloud our emotions and our actions?

Discuss.

[OOC]I ask this mostly in-character, but I'm also curious if anyone finds this to be the case out-of-character as well.[/OOC]

Here is why FAN is so angry with the NPO. A long time ago there used to be a bloc called the Initiative. It consisted of, at various times, NPO, NpO, GGA, GOONS, \m/, MCXA, Gen[m]ay, FAN, TPF, CIS, TOP, and more.

FAN was a huge alliance back in the day, they were #2 or #3 in the ranks, NPO was #2 or #3 (whichever FAN wasn't, I don't remember) and GPA used to be the #1 ranked alliance. FAN did some stupid things, and got the Initiative angry with them. The Initiative kicked FAN out, and immediately most the Initiative declared war on FAN. This was VietFAN. On the second day of war, the Initiative authorized first strike nuclear attacks on FAN, to which FAN responded by unleashing most of their 1k + nukes directly at the NPO and NpO, causing those two alliances to take more damage than any Initiative alliance. Initiative alliances had to give hundreds of millions of dollars in aid to the NPO and NpO to help them stay affloat and keep fighting. FAN iniatited a policy of telling every member to run to peace mode, and eventually all non peace mode FAN nations were effectively destroyed.

FAN stayed in war with the NPO, NpO, GGA, and IRON (who had also declared war on FAN) for a year. During this year the conflict was low key, not many FAN nations jumped out of peace mode. During this time the UJW was fought, and as a result of rising tensions both NpO and the UJP (GOONS, \m/, Gen[m]ay) declared peace with FAN, leaving just the NPO and a few others still in war with FAN.

After a while, FAN signed a peace agreement with NPO. This peace agreement was strangely worded, and allowed for multiple interpretations of two key clauses of the treaty, one of which read "FAN can only keep as many troops as needed to keep their population happy". It is important to note that the current game mechanics regarding buying troops were different at this time. It was impossible to enter in an exact number of troops to buy, you had to select a predetermined amount from a list of different troop amounts that were generated for you. NPO intepretted this clause to mean "FAN can only keep 20% of their population as troops".

During the time of peace FAN was a protectorate, was required to demiliterize as much as possible, and the NPO was responsible for dealing with all attacks on FAN nations. With the peace treaty almost expired, NPO, NpO, GGA, and IRON (the then members of One Vision) blitzed FAN for percieved violations of the peace treaty.

One Vision claimed that a 75% of the FAN alliance was in violation of the terms, and decided, in direct violation of one clause that read "if a FAN nation is found to be in violation of the terms only that FAN nation will be attacked". This is the event that caused the current hatred from FAN to the NPO. FAN claims to this day that the majority of their alliance was in compliance with the terms, and that the NPO had indeed been lax with protecting them from rogues, a claim that the now defunct LUE also had with the NPO in regards to their GW2 surrender terms.

FAN claims that the NPO backstabbed them while they were an unarmed protectorate of the NPO for trumped up reasons. FAN has since claimed they will only accept a White peace with the NPO, and has fully embraced spying on the NPO.

Vox

Vox is a remake of another alliance. The current Vox was created during the "No CB" war in which GGA and Valhalla DOW'ed Hyperion for aiding the reroll of someone on the PZI list of GGA. Through a mix of treaties the Mushroom Kingdom found itself declared on by the NPO, and the entire R&R bloc, or the "Friends>Infra", were declared on. The reason for declaring on Hyperion did not sit well with the general CN population who was not in the Continuum.

The NPO decleration on MK, and the Continuum DOW on NpO caused massive uproar on the forums, and many people joined Vox as a way to protest the hegemonies (Continuum and allies) way of handling themselves. Unlike what occured in the Unjust War or the Unjust War part 2, this "revolt" was poorly planned, not executed well, and had no alliances of any power backing it, or directing it. As a result the rapid growth Vox enjoyed in its first week of reformation saw a rapid de-growth as most left Vox, either to reroll, to spy, or to join other alliances and put that chapter behind themselves.

Vox was formed by a group of people whom were vocal protestors of the NPO's isolation and coordination of the Unjust war part 2 (Continuum vs NpO, and the dismantling of BLEU), and tried their best to keep the two orders from fighting. For their efforts they were sentenced to PZI by the NPO and their allies.

Some Vox members see the NPO in its current form as having lost its way, as not following true "Francoist" principles. Others are bitter at the treatment they received at the hands of the NPO for trying to help Polaris. Others want to bring the hegemony down. In short, the members of Vox currently are all on the NPO, and o thers, PZI list, meaning that they are forever to be attacked on site by at least Pacifica. The feel mistreated, and one of Vox's goals is to bring down the practice of PZI and EZI.

In closing, both Vox and FAN feel betrayed by the NPO, and refuse to do things as NPO wants. For FAN, the last time they asked for peace, an Imperial Officer of the NPO told them to "die", implying that the NPO will never give FAN peace. For Vox, all members (if I'm not mistaken) are on the EZI/PZI list of the NPO, meaning they can never play that game, even on a rerolled account, without the NPO attacking them.

Note: I am not saying that the events described are 100% accurate. I am saying that what I have described is the viewpoint of FAN and Vox, as I understand it.

[Paradigm]

There are some, like Jonathan Brookbank, who certainly are having issues like this, yes. But as the "Free Jonathan" side likes to remind us all at every chance, there were some founders of Vox that went, petitioned for the ZI status to be removed, and are now living their lives in a matter that I would assume is normal. Did they not wear the Vox AA at one time?

Yes - but those were special INITIAL cases and from what I heard took quite a bit of lobbying by Reyne to make happen.(props to reyne on this subject)

I may be wrong, but not sure one should be counting on that option should one slap on the AA.

[Farrin Xies]

Caliph, I appreciate the information, and know that I didn't just intitate this conversation blind; I have read the "official" histories [OOC:]the Wiki[/OOC] on these subjects. I'm not saying that, from both FAN and Vox's points of view that they don't have legitimate grounds for mistrusting the NPO and even, perhaps, hating it as an alliance. My question at the very beginning was simply why this hatred of the institution must boil down to its individual members. And yes, there are certainly my fellow Pacificans who fan the flames, I don't argue that. I, personally, feel no ill will to any individual member of FAN nor Vox; I found Schattenman's writing in This Week in Pacifica to be excellent and hilarious, even if I disagree with some of the content in it at times (personal attacks, etc.).

Edited April 3, 2009 by farrin

[Caliph]

Caliph, I appreciate the information, and know that I didn't just intitate this conversation blind; I have read the "official" histories [OOC:]the Wiki[/OOC] on these subjects. I'm not saying that, from both FAN and Vox's points of view that they don't have legitimate grounds for mistrusting the NPO and even, perhaps, hating it as an alliance. My question at the very beginning was simply why this hatred of the institution must boil down to its individual members. And yes, there are certainly my fellow Pacificans who fan the flames, I don't argue that. I, personally, feel no ill will to any individual member of FAN nor Vox; I found Schattenman's writing in This Week in Pacifica to be excellent and hilarious, even if I disagree with some of the content in it at times (personal attacks, etc.).

Well, I partly answered your question already.

For Vox, many of their members feel betrayed by Pacifica. Some of them have had long histories in the NPO, and were Imperial Officers at one point, or highly respected members. They voiced dissastifaction with what Pacifica was doing to Polaris, and were expelled and sentenced to PZI for it. Some have taken that rather personally.

For FAN's case, I attribute it to both sides caring for their alliance. The NPO fears what FAN would become if it ever got peace. FAN was responsible for causing incredible damage to the NPO, and if it weren't for the NPO's allies the NPO would have taken far more damage and would not have recovered so quick. Of course the foreign policy of NpO at the time was to discredit everything every other Initiative alliance had done and instead only recognize what the NPO and NpO had done, but thats beside the point.

In FAN's case, I believe it was Bakunin's Dream who told FAN that they would never get peace, and that they should "die". At this point in time, FAN members are members are not dead weight that they had when they were the #3 ranked alliance in CN, they are highly motivated having survived constant warfare for over 2 years. FAN members see the NPO as trying to prevent them from playing the game, and some have taken that rather personally as well.

Additionally, as you have stated, the actions and words of certain Pacificans have indeed not helped much, and I know that the NPO government wants FAN dead and disbanded.

Truthfully, at this point, I think that the reason the NPO refuses to give FAN peace is because the NPO was in that same position in Great War 1, and fears what FAN would do if it got peace. After all, the NPO rebuilt, gathered a coalition, and had their retribution on their enemies in Great War 2 and Great War 3. Regardless of anything FAN says, the NPO sees that FAN has survived, like the NPO, against huge odds. The NPO sees FAN as being like themselves, and as a result of that, think that FAN would do what the NPO did, and take revenge for the war.

[Sephiroth]

Caliph, I appreciate the information, and know that I didn't just intitate this conversation blind; I have read the "official" histories [OOC:]the Wiki[/OOC] on these subjects. I'm not saying that, from both FAN and Vox's points of view that they don't have legitimate grounds for mistrusting the NPO and even, perhaps, hating it as an alliance. My question at the very beginning was simply why this hatred of the institution must boil down to its individual members. And yes, there are certainly my fellow Pacificans who fan the flames, I don't argue that. I, personally, feel no ill will to any individual member of FAN nor Vox; I found Schattenman's writing in This Week in Pacifica to be excellent and hilarious, even if I disagree with some of the content in it at times (personal attacks, etc.).

You guys make it personal when you decide that a real life person will be attacked by you guys in-game no matter what if you find out who they are regardless of what they may try doing in-game to change, Vox is an indirect creation of your ruthless methods in keeping former enemies down forever.

FAN you guys attacked just a few days before their peace terms ran out while they were still technically under your protection over some minor issues that could of easily been resolved, which showed you never really planned to let them loose in the first place. Its been stated by many NPO members FAN will never get peace, so what do they have left other than to try undermining you guys whenever possible? You've designated FAN your eternal enemy, so they can't do much else. After years of fighting you and allies with no hope of peace, you really expect them to be nice?

[Heyman]

Truthfully, at this point, I think that the reason the NPO refuses to give FAN peace is because the NPO was in that same position in Great War 1, and fears what FAN would do if it got peace. After all, the NPO rebuilt, gathered a coalition, and had their retribution on their enemies in Great War 2 and Great War 3. Regardless of anything FAN says, the NPO sees that FAN has survived, like the NPO, against huge odds. The NPO sees FAN as being like themselves, and as a result of that, think that FAN would do what the NPO did, and take revenge for the war.

I quote this for truth, and to point out that this statement may very well be attacked ferociously within the next 24 hours.

[Reachwind]

My question at the very beginning was simply why this hatred of the institution must boil down to its individual members.

IC - Individual members ARE the institution.

OOC - Normally when a person wins a game or contest they give the person they beat a chance to recover and play again. People that camp a respawn point, new player areas or simply continuously gloat after winning are pretty much universally hated.