Vox and NPO: Where is the love?

[Ventus ex Gutter]

There is only one thing that I would correct about Caliph's recollection, and that is that around 33% of FAN was in violation of the terms (assuming that they said to keep Soldier Count at 20% Citizen Population), not 75%.

Otherwise, good recollection, Caliph.

[Bob Sanders]

Kinda like how GGA spies on Vox even though it's against their charter, right? In fact, if I remember right, GGA has had a long history with spies, I wonder who else they could be spying on.

I'm sorry, please remind me when GGA rerolled a nation into an enemy alliance for the purpose of spying. That is the reason why Vox can't be given peace. You complain about EZI being griefing yet you and FAN repeatedly use an OOC action(re-rolling) to infiltrate the enemy and gain intel. Those two positions are wholly incompatible.

[JayOvfEnnay]

There is only one thing that I would correct about Caliph's recollection, and that is that around 33% of FAN was in violation of the terms (assuming that they said to keep Soldier Count at 20% Citizen Population), not 75%.

Otherwise, good recollection, Caliph.

I assume he's refering to terms as a whole, including that ever so needed "no factory" rule.

A response in the second DOW thread on FAN lists it out and shows that the majority were not even registered on FAN forums. Whether they were ghosts sent in by NPO, or just ghosts period is debatable.

Problem is no matter how much I attempt to debate it it won't change the fact that NPO is dreadfully scared of a FAN that is ever allowed to play the game with unrestricted growth. If there's anyone who thinks that NPO was, is, or ever will be as strong as FAN when it comes to being pound for pound 1v1, then that person isn't worth arguing with (beyond help, etcetera etcetera).

[Stonewall Jaxon]

The main reason FAN can never get peace is because of their open spying. An alliance who's primary method of war is spying can never be trusted with surrender.

I hate to sound like a FAN sympathizer, but I do have two points

1) FAN are not in eternal war because they are spying. They are spying because they are in eternal war. The current quagmire is by no choice of FAN's.

2) "Trusted with surrender?" Remember the situation we are talking about, then try to rephrase that to make it less ironic.

Edited April 5, 2009 by Stonewall Jaxon

[Bob Sanders]

I hate to sound like a FAN sympathizer, but I do have two points

1) FAN are not in eternal war because they are spying. They are spying because they are in eternal war. The current quagmire is by no choice of FAN's.

2) "Trusted with surrender?" Remember the situation we are talking about, then try to rephrase that to make it less ironic.

Their current reroll based spying is what precludes surrender now, not that they want peace anyway. Want some more irony, FAN spied on MHA despite MHA never being at war with them. That act is the only reason that MHA is currently at war with FAN.

[Stonewall Jaxon]

Their current reroll based spying is what precludes surrender now, not that they want peace anyway. Want some more irony, FAN spied on MHA despite MHA never being at war with them. That act is the only reason that MHA is currently at war with FAN.

I am very well aware of what FAN did to MHA, and that was unacceptable. At that point, FAN was like a cornered snake in that they just lashed out randomly. However, very little in CN is unforgivable. every action has a consequence, but after the consequence is done, then the offense shouldn't continue to be punished. If someone in a bar calls your girlfriend some unattractive words, you punch that guy in the face, right? However, do you then proceed to beat the hell out of the guy whenever you pass him in the street?

[Nintenderek]

I'm sorry, please remind me when GGA rerolled a nation into an enemy alliance for the purpose of spying.

Well considering I don't remember the last time someone left GGA for Vox and they've admitted to having a spy in Vox, I'm guessing there's a good 80-90 percent chance their spy in Vox is a reroll.

[Mogar]

I am very well aware of what FAN did to MHA, and that was unacceptable. At that point, FAN was like a cornered snake in that they just lashed out randomly. However, very little in CN is unforgivable. every action has a consequence, but after the consequence is done, then the offense shouldn't continue to be punished. If someone in a bar calls your girlfriend some unattractive words, you punch that guy in the face, right? However, do you then proceed to beat the hell out of the guy whenever you pass him in the street?

yes, I do.

[Stonewall Jaxon]

yes, I do.

Then that guy is going to start carrying a blade. Prepare for that if you find yourself attacking someone that much.

[Bob Sanders]

Well considering I don't remember the last time someone left GGA for Vox and they've admitted to having a spy in Vox, I'm guessing there's a good 80-90 percent chance their spy in Vox is a reroll.

Link please?

Edited April 5, 2009 by Bob Sanders

[Nintenderek]

Link please?

Damnit, you made me go look for it, but here it is.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=1350751

I also still have some screenshots of the first part of the conversation on the Vox forums somewhere, but they are small and unreadable.

EDIT: I was also reminded of these, which although aren't as recent, are proof.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...3386&hl=spy

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...3531&hl=spy

Edited April 5, 2009 by Nintenderek

[Caesar833]

Damnit, you made me go look for it, but here it is.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=1350751

I also still have some screenshots of the first part of the conversation on the Vox forums somewhere, but they are small and unreadable.

See CN? Vox can back up what they say with proof. Take notes.

[WarMaster Kerr]

Cant we all just get along?!?!

Hmm.. how would you suppose our peoples would come to terms then? Most of Vox wont rest until were defeated, very unlikely indeed, and Ill agree we wont stop until Vox is dead, although you can still find ways out of the conflict, or the odd chance that we came to terms, but how would such a thing happen?

[OOC] I find the idea of vox, a resistance movement, a fun thing to play as in a game like this although id get tired of the constant shilacking.(sp)[end OOC]

I must ask though, do you guys wonder if your misguided? You must realise that the way your fighting isnt wise. To me, at least, it sounds as if you are fighting the NPO for things it did, thus causing the NPO to repeat those things upon yourselves, and then have a fall-guy for it all as well. And conventionally, you do not have the strength, rhetorically, you do not have the numbers.

And im sure FAN would just want to be left alone.

So where would we start? You guys talk about it but I dont really hear any workable solutions.

Or are our two groups doomed to be an eternal stuggle of not-so-epic proportions for years on end?

[HeinousOne]

Cant we all just get along?!?!

Hmm.. how would you suppose our peoples would come to terms then? Most of Vox wont rest until were defeated, very unlikely indeed, and Ill agree we wont stop until Vox is dead, although you can still find ways out of the conflict, or the odd chance that we came to terms, but how would such a thing happen?

[OOC] I find the idea of vox, a resistance movement, a fun thing to play as in a game like this although id get tired of the constant shilacking.(sp)[end OOC]

I must ask though, do you guys wonder if your misguided? You must realise that the way your fighting isnt wise. To me, at least, it sounds as if you are fighting the NPO for things it did, thus causing the NPO to repeat those things upon yourselves, and then have a fall-guy for it all as well. And conventionally, you do not have the strength, rhetorically, you do not have the numbers.

And im sure FAN would just want to be left alone.

So where would we start? You guys talk about it but I dont really hear any workable solutions.

Or are our two groups doomed to be an eternal stuggle of not-so-epic proportions for years on end?

To let ya know, this is an OOC forum and you needn't use the OOC quotes because our opinions here are our own and not that of our "characters".

[Bob Janova]

And also to let you know, NPO declared war on Vox Populi and not the other way around. Vox declared on GGA and Valhalla.

[Stonewall Jaxon]

And also to let you know, NPO declared war on Vox Populi and not the other way around. Vox declared on GGA and Valhalla.

That's speaking a bit too technically. When Vox was founded, they hardly considered themselves an "alliance" and generally committed acts of war on NPO and her closest allies. Sure, NPO declared war on Vox, but Vox had been making war on NPO since its founding.

[Sal Paradise]

That's speaking a bit too technically. When Vox was founded, they hardly considered themselves an "alliance" and generally committed acts of war on NPO and her closest allies. Sure, NPO declared war on Vox, but Vox had been making war on NPO since its founding.

And that's speaking even more technically. If Vox was attacking NPO that mean be seen as declaring first. But if they were only doing things that others consider acts of war (i.e. taking the red team senate, spying, log posted etc), then you'd basically be saying that providing a CB is equivalent to declaring war.

[Stonewall Jaxon]

And that's speaking even more technically. If Vox was attacking NPO that mean be seen as declaring first. But if they were only doing things that others consider acts of war (i.e. taking the red team senate, spying, log posted etc), then you'd basically be saying that providing a CB is equivalent to declaring war.

I can't say for sure, but if I had to guess, I'd say plenty of Vox members went nuke rogue on NPO during Vox's founding. However, to resolve the "who started the war?" we'd need a clearer definition of "war."

[Sigrun Vapneir]

A clearer definition of war?

It's when you push that button, you know, the one marked "Declare War".

[ModusOperandi]

Now not going about your IC (if there is a difference) views on in game politics towards which I could hardly agree and see them as complete nonsense because I do not want to get bothered with that in an OOC area and not even touching the "legit" script thing because there is no need to, while I do find it funny you would even want to go there because you do not have a first clue about what you are talking about and how that about which you talk about actually works but that never stopped people from talking (lol), I will just address this.

While playing this game, I have noticed, as I already pointed out in my first post here, that a lot of people get taken by the in game politics and I never found any in game side, group or association to be actually more deep into it then any other. On that note, I never took that people playing within the NPO took the game more seriously then people playing anywhere else. I never got that feeling and do not know on what that assumption could even be based, and I have been a part of the community for a long time. The game has the same "effect" on people all around, always had.

Ahem,

durka durka durka, durka durka, durka.

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

[Doitzel]

That's speaking a bit too technically. When Vox was founded, they hardly considered themselves an "alliance" and generally committed acts of war on NPO and her closest allies. Sure, NPO declared war on Vox, but Vox had been making war on NPO since its founding.

And if you want to get technical like that, NPO had been engaging in acts of war against us long before we were even founded. The reason we got together in the first place was because we were all on PZI.

[Caliph]

And if you want to get technical like that, NPO had been engaging in acts of war against us long before we were even founded. The reason we got together in the first place was because we were all on PZI.

This is indeed correct, and I have tried to explain that earlier but perhaps my point then was lost.

Vox is the reaction to NPO and allies actions, not the cause.

[Branimir]

Ahem,

durka durka durka, durka durka, durka.

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

Ehm,...yeah,...ok. So, caek or pie?

[Stonewall Jaxon]

And if you want to get technical like that, NPO had been engaging in acts of war against us long before we were even founded. The reason we got together in the first place was because we were all on PZI.

If you want to get more techincal ( ), one could say that the Vox members that were on PZI lists were in that position because they committed some act of war or betrayal against Pacifica.

[animea90]

Do you even have a clue about how the FAN-WUT war started or what the cb was? I was in FAN and since then I have been very good friends with the person that provided the primary cb and discussed the war with top government from various alliances involved in the war. FAN's ridiculous government actions earned that war 10x over. The main reason FAN can never get peace is because of their open spying. An alliance who's primary method of war is spying can never be trusted with surrender. The same stands for Vox. There is simply no way to enforce the surrender.

I know NPO used to use spies also. Heck, most alliance have(in fact, Polar did and they got peace). If spying is grounds for never giving an alliance surrender, then you could argue any major alliance should never be allowed to surrender. Alliances have admitted before to having spies in the Blackstone Collusion and Vox. Most alliances just are much quieter about it.