Protected Nation

[Drai]

You have a poor handle on the politics of Planet Bob.

Seriously? Who do you personally think would attack them then?

[Epiphanus]

You have a poor handle on the politics of Planet Bob.

I think what you meant by that was, "no u".

Something about wheels, and a bus...

You didn't answer my question, Sanders. )):

Considering Degen is the entire reason that this got out and the Shane Price is no longer in power that is crazy talk. He obviously was not part of Shane Price's plans. Arguing that Degen is just as responsible as Shane is easily the weakest argument I have ever seen you make and I disagree with nearly ever post you have ever made.

As I'm sure you've seen the same logs I have, we both know degen was just as present, and just as positive as shaneprince about the road shane wanted to travel.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Epiphanus

[Nintenderek]

For the love of Admin, what is this I don't even. I was only gone 8 hours. 20 pages is ridiculous.

If only TWiP could have got wind of this before a simple Protection post occured.

(Edit: Yes, TWiP was posted before this occurred last night. I'm well aware of that.)

It was suppose to be in the tattler, but I think this actually worked out much better. I think we should thank VE for this topic.

No, weeks ago recent; maybe more than a month. Nice try though.

Look at the date on the screenshot more carefully.

Here is a response. Shane Price is utterly incompetent for wanting to cancel GGA's treaties and "ally" with a group of alliances who hate them, have mocked them for months and want them dead.

I guess your right, I mean, look what's happening to them now because Bilrow did it.

This post sounds so very familiar to an old alliance of mine.

GGA is the exact same as GOLD.

I really hate to admit this, but I agree with you on that, although GOLD at least let people have opinions.

Well hello there old friend.

I couldn't agree with you more.

I'm surprised I haven't seen more members of GGA start walking way from the mess their government is creating for them. The next thing is the wonder of how many allies of GGA are re-evaluating their ties to them.

I am not surprised at all. With an alliance like GGA's, most of their membership probably doesn't even read their alliance forums, much less these forums. I'd bet three fourths of their membership doesn't even know what's going on.

Going on information from this thread GGA has been somewhat unstable for some time, so in an effort to stabilize the situation a GGA Triumvir namely Shaneprice took it upon himself to discuss leaving 1V not with 1V alliance leadership, nor his fellow triumvirs but Greenland Republic.

If this had happened to any other alliance this would be written off as an incredibly inept member of government making a cluster $%&@ but as it is GGA and they do have so many fans on Planet Bob everyone jumps on the GGA bandwagon. If a member of any other government did this I suspect said government member would be thrown out of government, maybe even the alliance and possibly even ZIed for being so ridiculous they make GPA's peace negotiation party look like political hawks.

But since it is GGA lets dig the knife in. I can see why VE made this thread as surely a simple IRC chat with the other GGA triumvirate members informing them that Shaneprice is now a VE member would not have sufficed, instead this circus was needed and VE appears the hero on the world stage for "saving" someone that has proven himself to be a fool. For the next logical step in VE / GGA foreign relations may I suggest Shaneprice be allowed to run for Green Senate and thirdly can we rename Shaneprice "Free Quebec"? Im sure my suggestions would fit in nicely with VE's longstanding desire and actions to create a united Green Sphere.

Also for the vultures

Out of all the posts in this thread, this made it to the top 5 for most stupid, although I expect no less from you. What the logs looked like to me was a casual conversation between some friends, which I'm sure a lot of people have on IRC all the time. Also, please tell me your not accusing VE of backstabbing GGA, because if so, I think you have some reading to do.

I have to wonder why VE felt the need to make this a public announcement. People that leave gov positions are often allowed to ghost in a friendly alliance until they get settled in a new home.

To me, it looks like an attempt to embarrass GGA in what was (and should be) an internal matter.

I love how your trying to make VE look like the bad guys here. They decided to protect him which is when they made this announcement. Only later did he actually join VE. In fact, if you read the OP, it doesn't mention any of the reasons behind it or anything. It looks more like VE was trying to cover it up now that I go back and look at it. Only later in the thread did a GGA member bring it up. GGA should be thanking VE though for making this topic. Maybe now, they'll actually realize what a cruddy alliance they are.

Also, for the record, it took me 20 freak'n minutes to read the last 12 pages of this topic and two pages more appeared while I made this post

Edited March 18, 2009 by Nintenderek

[Delta1212]

This doesn't seem a stretch to me...and I certainly don't think what VE did is classy or honorable. Their motives in how they handled this are questionable at best.

Keep saying it and maybe someone will start believing you through sheer force of will.

[Rebel Virginia]

When the new ideas are stupid it is incompetence.

You know, most people would generally agree I'm quite competent. And it may be true, as I'm full of good ideas. You want to know what I'm more full of though? Dumb ones. Yes, that's right. I've come up with a fair share of rather stupid ideas, but you know what, it's all just part of the process. You're going to come up with a heck of a lot more stupid ideas before you even get one remotely decent one. Same deal with some of my former subordinates. Brilliant people who often times suggested some very stupid ideas. You see, you just can't kick people for having a stupid idea, or else you're going to run out of people. Discuss the idea first, even if it is stupid it should get at least some discussion to see if it was really that stupid, and if you decide it's not worth it, toss it. Incompetence would be implementing the idea as soon as you get it, with no discussion and no regard for the consequences.

[Ejayrazz]

I may be looking into things too deeply, but I've encountered this type of situation before and I never considered making someone a single-nation protectorate or making a post about it on the OWF. I don't think VE gov is that naive to think that there wouldn't be fallout from this thread. On the contrary, I think VE gov is very saavy...which is why I asked the question.

As I'm not in VE or GGA, I can't speak to their relationship. I asked what I felt was a legitimate question based on how this situation was handled as opposed to how it could or should have been handled.

The point was why? He could have just as easily ghosted VE (with their permission of course).

We've done that for people...as have others. The only single-nation protectorate I ever considered was franzjosef.

Like stated mate, every situation has its own mitigating circumstances.

[uaciaut]

You know i just pictured this happening pre-ujw and i realized i'd see VERY many roles reversed in this thread by nature/attitude of posting lol. Very few would stay the same though.

[Rebel Virginia]

I may be looking into things too deeply, but I've encountered this type of situation before and I never considered making someone a single-nation protectorate or making a post about it on the OWF. I don't think VE gov is that naive to think that there wouldn't be fallout from this thread. On the contrary, I think VE gov is very saavy...which is why I asked the question.

As I'm not in VE or GGA, I can't speak to their relationship. I asked what I felt was a legitimate question based on how this situation was handled as opposed to how it could or should have been handled.

So, perhaps you've never made a single nation protectorate announcement before? Others have though. One notable example that comes to mind is the NPO's protection of WarriorConcept. Different alliances mean different ways of doing things.

Now, was it necessary for this announcement to be the place where the fallout would take place? Not necessarily. As MegaAros stated, Vox would have made sure there was a place for public discussion on the issue, however, Dephire's attempt to rectify the situation made that unnecessary, as the discussion right then began to take place here. Besides, people were already talking about this through the grapevine. This isn't exactly something that can be covered up.

So, if the damage would be done anyway, I must ask you, why would VE even bother doing something like this then? What motive would they have?

[Slayer99]

Are you sure about that?

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...mp;#entry122602

Totally different situation. WC wasn't in gov or in an alliance at the time (since \m/ had disbanded).

Please, VE aren't a dishonorable bunch, this path wont be walked along easily mate.

Where did I say they were dishonorable? I said it wasn't honorable or classy as some have touted and poorly-handled IMHO. If you're interest is in protecting your ally rather than protecting their former member, safer to let him ghost as applicant than to allow the internal affairs of an ally to be splattered over the OWF.

Like stated mate, every situation has its own mitigating circumstances.

Protecting franzjosef wouldn't have had the potential to hurt any allies...and it would have been funny (because he was hilarious no matter what side you were on). Considering it and doing it are entirely different matters.

[Bob Sanders]

I think what you meant by that was, "no u".

Something about wheels, and a bus...

You didn't answer my question, Sanders. )):

If you didn't catch on by now I'm not going to name who I think would attack them if given the chance. I certainly have more than a few in mind and Hizzy, Nueva Vida isn't one of them, neither is GR. Sorry to burst your bubbles there.

As I'm sure you've seen the same logs I have, we both know degen was just as present, and just as positive as shaneprince about the road shane wanted to travel.

Actions speak louder than words. Its extremely clear to me that after Degen figured out what was going on he was there for evidence gathering purposes.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Bob Sanders

[Earogema]

That wasn't the reference and the question wasn't geared towards you...but thanks for joining the conversation with your witty response.

You didn't say anything for 40 pages.

[Bob Janova]

WC wasn't in gov or in an alliance at the time

Shane wasn't in gov or an alliance at the time (since GGA had unofficially-kicked him).

[King Srqt]

Totally different situation. WC wasn't in gov or in an alliance at the time (since \m/ had disbanded).

Slayer I was referring to TBB mentioning that TPF held a single nation portectorate for quite some time in response to you saying you had never considered it. (that is the actual post that link leads to)

A single nation protectorate? That's gotta be a first.

We in fact have had one for some time.

Edited March 18, 2009 by KingSrqt

[Delta1212]

Where did I say they were dishonorable? I said it wasn't honorable or classy as some have touted and poorly-handled IMHO. If you're interest is in protecting your ally rather than protecting their former member, safer to let him ghost as applicant than to allow the internal affairs of an ally to be splattered over the OWF.

VE did absolutely nothing to embarass GGA. Had GGA managed to do even half decent damage control, nothing VE did would have affected it in any form. The fact that GGA hijacked and then crashed VE's thread by putting their official and bloody awful statement in it is hardly the Entente's doing.

You can finger wave at VE all you want, but nobody is going to take you seriously because the idea is laughable.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Delta1212

[Slayer99]

So, perhaps you've never made a single nation protectorate announcement before? Others have though. One notable example that comes to mind is the NPO's protection of WarriorConcept. Different alliances mean different ways of doing things.

Now, was it necessary for this announcement to be the place where the fallout would take place? Not necessarily. As MegaAros stated, Vox would have made sure there was a place for public discussion on the issue, however, Dephire's attempt to rectify the situation made that unnecessary, as the discussion right then began to take place here. Besides, people were already talking about this through the grapevine. This isn't exactly something that can be covered up.

So, if the damage would be done anyway, I must ask you, why would VE even bother doing something like this then? What motive would they have?

Other than your first point (which I've previously responded to), valid points. I'm just speaking from my experience with similar situations. While what you've stated is likely true, it would have been quite a bit different if Vox came out with it publicly than VE starting the thread. I'm going to guess that this thread would have an affect on VE/GGA relations.

I'll take off the tinfoil now.... :-)

[Earogema]

VE did absolutely nothing to embarass GGA. Had GGA managed to do even half decent damage control, nothing VE did would have affected it in any form. The fact that GGA hijacked and then crashed VE's thread by putting their official and bloody awful statement in it is hardly the Entente's doing.

You can finger wave at VE all you want, but nobody is going to take oyu seriously because the idea is laughable.

Especially combined with the fact that VE has said nothing on the issue.

[Epiphanus]

Where did I say they were dishonorable? I said it wasn't honorable or classy as some have touted and poorly-handled IMHO. If you're interest is in protecting your ally rather than protecting their former member, safer to let him ghost as applicant than to allow the internal affairs of an ally to be splattered over the OWF.

Because you seem to be missing it.

Dear Planet Bob,

I come to speak with an opinion on this here thread. Although many a bright mind have posted their own strong opinions about shaneprice's leaving of the Grand Global Alliance, and then the open trolling and dissing of said alliance, there are reasons that such a member left. Do not think that he was "kicked out" under "stupid reasons". He was let go for he committed a vile act. Shaneprice was convicted of speaking out against the New Pacific Order as well as IRON and also suggesting that the Grand Global Alliance "leave" OneVision. Now one may think that these reasons are "pathetic", but put your alliance in the shoes of the Grand Global Alliance. How would you take it if a member of leadership were to speak out against an ally who has stuck by your alliance since it's birth, or in this case "rebirth"? With that said, shaneprice was given the option to either leave with a partial good note, or be kicked. I, as Chancellor of the Grand Global Alliance, stand by the decisions of our leadership. Shaneprice nearly brought war to the Grand Global Alliance with his little "outburst". Think about it.

Dephire, Chancellor of the Grand Global Alliance.

Now, as you can see, the bolded part is catalyst to this 40+ page thread. Not cornelius, not VE.

If you didn't catch on by now I'm not going to name who I think would attack them if given the chance. I certainly have more than a few in mind and Hizzy, Nueva Vida isn't one of them, neither is GR. Sorry to burst your bubbles there.

Phew, I was worried GR was going to be attacking them. Besides, GR always has a legit CB when we DoW people.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Epiphanus

[Slayer99]

VE did absolutely nothing to embarass GGA. Had GGA managed to do even half decent damage control, nothing VE did would have affected it in any form. The fact that GGA hijacked and then crashed VE's thread by putting their official and bloody awful statement in it is hardly the Entente's doing.

You can finger wave at VE all you want, but nobody is going to take oyu seriously because the idea is laughable.

Instead of trying to troll me, read what I've said.

This could have been handled quietly and in the background...that was my point.

[Slayer99]

Because you seem to be missing it.

Now, as you can see, the bolded part is catalyst to this 40+ page thread. Not cornelius, not VE.

You're missing my point. The potential for disaster would have been mitigated if this was handled privately. That was the point everyone but RV seems to be missing.

EDIT: Read my response to RV... I'm taking off the tinfoil meaning I don't believe VE's intent was to embarrass GGA. I DO still feel these types of things are best handled quietly.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Slayer99

[Earogema]

You're missing my point. The potential for disaster would have been mitigated if this was handled privately. That was the point everyone but RV seems to be missing.

But the GGA Chancellor is the one who posted that...

[SoxNation]

If you didn't catch on by now I'm not going to name who I think would attack them if given the chance. I certainly have more than a few in mind and Hizzy, Nueva Vida isn't one of them, neither is GR. Sorry to burst your bubbles there.

Actions speak louder than words. Its extremely clear to me that after Degen figured out what was going on he was there for evidence gathering purposes.

Then why does GR claim that many government members from GGA had come to them asking about some sort of treaty?

[King Srqt]

Instead of trying to troll me, read what I've said.

This could have been handled quietly and in the background...that was my point.

So could every single nation protectorate ever, but many aren't and I don't see you criticizing the others. You can say this is different all you want but GGA made this thread about GGA VE didn't. This probably would have went away quietly as a 1-2 page thread like most of these announcements do if GGA hadn't barged in and made asses of themselves.

[Ejayrazz]

Totally different situation. WC wasn't in gov or in an alliance at the time (since \m/ had disbanded).

Where did I say they were dishonorable? I said it wasn't honorable or classy as some have touted and poorly-handled IMHO. If you're interest is in protecting your ally rather than protecting their former member, safer to let him ghost as applicant than to allow the internal affairs of an ally to be splattered over the OWF.

Protecting franzjosef wouldn't have had the potential to hurt any allies...and it would have been funny (because he was hilarious no matter what side you were on). Considering it and doing it are entirely different matters.

Not being honorable is being dishonorable in my view. There is no in between, either you're honorable or dishonorable, an honorable alliance can sometimes make dishonorable decisions, which you seemed to have implicated. I stated why this announcement was necessary, you seemed to have not presented a rebut as of yet for the specific reasons I offered. The WC situation wasn't completely different, who cares about his political positioning, it was GGA's indecisive wordings which lead this thread to where it is. Check VE, Salt didn't even know this thread skyrocketed to page 45. Last he saw it, it was page 3. Please, if VE would have wanted malicious intent for an ALLY, they would have done so more logically. Furthermore, implying they did this purposely to an ally is thus implying they are dishonorable to their allies.

Protecting franzjosef wouldn't have had the potential to hurt any allies...and it would have been funny (because he was hilarious no matter what side you were on). Considering it and doing it are entirely different matters.

You still considered it. Even so, each situation has its own mitigating circumstances...this announcement was necessary for numerous reasonings explained before, which I will cite here for reference:

THe reasoning for this announcement:

People view protection status differently throughout CN. If he was bearing VE's AA and was not a member, well, people could fabricate numerous reasons for attacking Shane. Needless to say, they wished to avoid any possible military conflict - this eliminated any confusion which people may have. Simple as that, nothing more nothing less. The conspiracy theories have only spiraled dozens of threads down the drain.

(Reference: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...613&st=860)

Furthermore, another reason is it is a diplomatic pain reliever. Instead of DOZENS of people contacting VE with the same questions pertaining to Shane, they did it here. It has been done by your very own allies before and by many other alliances as well. It was perfectly reasonable.

[Delta1212]

Instead of trying to troll me, read what I've said.

This could have been handled quietly and in the background...that was my point.

But there wasn't really any compelling reason to handle it one way or the other because this didn't turn into a PR wreck until GGA made a statement. Plenty of alliances handle it quietly. Plenty of others post announcements. Simply notifying the world that someone is under your protection with no other details about the situation leaves it entirely in GGA's hands in terms of how to handle the issue.

Had VE made this annoucement after GGA's PR started plummeting, then you might have a point. As it is, they were just unfortunate enough to have Dephire's post in their thread on the matter instead of GGA's own. You're creating plots retroactively and it is coming across as a desperate attempt to throw blame for the problem off of GGA and onto VE.

Of course, I could be entirely wrong and maybe you'd never do something like that.

[Epiphanus]

You're missing my point. The potential for disaster would have been mitigated if this was handled privately. That was the point everyone but RV seems to be missing.

I'm not missing your point. My point and the points made by others (ejayrazz in particular) still stand. Announcing single nation protectorates is not uncommon in CyberNations. Therefore, VE should have had no premonitions for posting such a thread. It is not their fault that a former gov member of the GGA posted a crass, and ill-thought-out response.

But the GGA Chancellor is the one who posted that...

No, no, he is saying that this whole thread was unnecessary.

Edit: @ slayer, glad the foil is coming off.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Epiphanus