Caesar’s Total War Roguery Guide

[JayOvfEnnay]

@Corinan- Perhaps you not knowing that he existed after him roguing on your smaller tier for the past... hmm... over two months, isn't such a good thing. It also further reinforces that NPO couldn't care less about their lower NS'd nations. By "ripping NPO to shreds" I simply meant that NPO has yet to do hardly ANY damage to him whatsoever while he has caused quite a lot of damage to several nations and some PR damage to NPO. So Corinan, continue downplaying the fact that there's a guy who's still attacking you, who's been resting at 1000 infra for the past 2 and a half months, and who can and will become fully nuclear as he has already shown.

Hey, maybe if we close our eyes real tight and just imagine that the big bad scary man isn't there anymore, he'll disappear.

Just maybe.

EDIT- teh sp3llinz.

Edited February 11, 2009 by Jofna

[astronaut jones]

But you'd do nowhere near the maximum amount of damage you could acheive.

On the contrary.

A long, drawn out war against an alliance, where a nation of your size would seemingly have an endless amount of cash, and an endless supply of nukes, 5 of which could not be spied away?

The amount of damage you could do to the lower ranks, especially if you keep your tech levels up, that itself would add up. Where you would do the most damage though, is in destroying the morale of the lower ranks of an alliance, wondering what is to be done about this rogue that keeps nuking them and destroy all that they've tried to build up. A lot of those members will eventually leave, and a lot of funds that should go towards growth of nations will go to rebuild nations, which ties up resources.

You're looking at it as the one or two big hits you could do, the people you could knock down a little. Those people already have warchests that would rival your own, those people would simply spend 100m of the 1 billion they have and re-buy the lost infrastructure and be none the worse for wear. Drawing out the lower ranks of a targetted alliance though, crushing their morale (especially if it coincides with a few well directed messages), and the damage you'd do is far more than monetary.

(OOC) Pixels are pixels, the money here is fake. To do any real, lasting damage, you have to demoralize the members of an alliance. This guide, and a billion dollars? You could do just that, and then some.(/OOC)

[EDIT:]

In fact, with a billion dollars and a well placed, well publicized smear campaign, along with a well publicized propaganda campaign, and you could make a lot of smaller nations second guess joining the alliance you're targeting. Every alliance needs members, and if they're, say, not getting any new members between 4k-10k or whatever, because they'd be in a direct line of fire, and no one joining below that because they'd eventually be in the line of fire, and you could be a one man wrecking crew.

I'm surprised no one has taken the next logical step in rogue guides, and instead of just writing an updated nuclear rogue guide (which are always welcome), but a full on guerilla warfare guide, complete with tactics on how to demoralize the enemy, launch a successful propaganda campaign, etc. etc.

Maybe that's the next step?

Edited February 11, 2009 by astronaut jones

[Delta1212]

On the contrary.

A long, drawn out war against an alliance, where a nation of your size would seemingly have an endless amount of cash, and an endless supply of nukes, 5 of which could not be spied away?

The amount of damage you could do to the lower ranks, especially if you keep your tech levels up, that itself would add up. Where you would do the most damage though, is in destroying the morale of the lower ranks of an alliance, wondering what is to be done about this rogue that keeps nuking them and destroy all that they've tried to build up. A lot of those members will eventually leave, and a lot of funds that should go towards growth of nations will go to rebuild nations, which ties up resources.

You're looking at it as the one or two big hits you could do, the people you could knock down a little. Those people already have warchests that would rival your own, those people would simply spend 100m of the 1 billion they have and re-buy the lost infrastructure and be none the worse for wear. Drawing out the lower ranks of a targetted alliance though, crushing their morale (especially if it coincides with a few well directed messages), and the damage you'd do is far more than monetary.

(OOC) Pixels are pixels, the money here is fake. To do any real, lasting damage, you have to demoralize the members of an alliance. This guide, and a billion dollars? You could do just that, and then some.(/OOC)

[EDIT:]

In fact, with a billion dollars and a well placed, well publicized smear campaign, along with a well publicized propaganda campaign, and you could make a lot of smaller nations second guess joining the alliance you're targeting. Every alliance needs members, and if they're, say, not getting any new members between 4k-10k or whatever, because they'd be in a direct line of fire, and no one joining below that because they'd eventually be in the line of fire, and you could be a one man wrecking crew.

I'm surprised no one has taken the next logical step in rogue guides, and instead of just writing an updated nuclear rogue guide (which are always welcome), but a full on guerilla warfare guide, complete with tactics on how to demoralize the enemy, launch a successful propaganda campaign, etc. etc.

Maybe that's the next step?

1: I could do well over 5 billion in damages in a single week of war doing it my way and still wind up beating on the lower ranks of an alliance by the end.

2: All the counters to a rogue that you could implement are already known. Publishing guides on how to be more efficient isn't going to do a whole lot to help develop more effective counter measures. Effewctively fighting a guerrilla war is more complicated than just going rogue, which makes some of the better available strategies possible to counter by people who have thought of them.

If you want a guerrilla guide, just piece together the nuclear rogue and spying guides. Anything else would undermine itself by being published publically.

[Necromancer V4L]

Hey there,

[ooc]So I'm sitting at the local coffee house[ooc] with Khaziku, one of the members you nuked. Why did you wait until the last day of the war to nuke him, instead of nuking on the third day, which would have given you days of devastating attacks and probably decimated his nation?

Oh, he says "Hi."

I'm surprised no one has taken the next logical step in rogue guides, and instead of just writing an updated nuclear rogue guide (which are always welcome), but a full on guerilla warfare guide, complete with tactics on how to demoralize the enemy, launch a successful propaganda campaign, etc. etc.

Maybe that's the next step?

It has been written. It's Pacifica's War Guide.

Edited February 11, 2009 by Necromancer V4L

[Corinan]

@Corinan- Perhaps you not knowing that he existed after him roguing on your smaller tier for the past... hmm... over two months, isn't such a good thing. It also further reinforces that NPO couldn't care less about their lower NS'd nations. By "ripping NPO to shreds" I simply meant that NPO has yet to do hardly ANY damage to him whatsoever while he has caused quite a lot of damage to several nations and some PR damage to NPO. So Corinan, continue downplaying the fact that there's a guy who's still attacking you, who's been resting at 1000 infra for the past 2 and a half months, and who can and will become fully nuclear as he has already shown.

Hey, maybe if we close our eyes real tight and just imagine that the big bad scary man isn't there anymore, he'll disappear.

Just maybe.

EDIT- teh sp3llinz.

The "big bad scary man" is sitting at about 500 Infra and in Anarchy. That's not exactly my definition of scary.

Look, I thought I was giving him credit where it was due. He's shown good planning in executing this guerilla campaign against us, but it's still going to end the same. He'll be at ZI and our lower range troops will be stronger than they were originally.

As far as you trying to imply that my statement shows that the NPO doesn't care about its lower strength nations, I'm in the highest battalion in the Order and therefore don't pay much attention to the lower battalions. I'm not a Pacifican government official and pretty much stay in my lane. That doesn't mean I don't care about my lower NS comrades and to try to take what I said and imply that is ridiculous.

[Eeyore]

Diskord's more updated guide is far superior. This isn't bad, but as Delta said, if you want to do max damage then obviously you want more money, and more money means quite a different tactic.

[JayOvfEnnay]

@Corinan - Roma sits with 1000 tech, 500 infra, and has launched a total of 60 nukes so far. This is while sitting with anywhere from 3 to 6 wars at any time, more often than not it's 6. In the process of war he's aiding several hundred tech to nations at eternal war with NPO. The fact that he's cost NPO nations atleast one-hundred million dollars if not more, in damages by nuke and occupation is something of a dent in itself and while it may not be recognized in the grand scheme of things like an actual alliance war would, it is giving Pacifica something that they haven't been able to take care of for a very long time. To put it simply, he's cost NPO PR damage and monetary damage as well, and after 2 months they haven't effectively gotten rid of Roma or ZI'd him. He's still there. He still attacking. He's still causing damage.

They may end up stronger than they originally were, but they will have fallen back quite a long time in the development of their nation. If your NS is 40,000, then you are nuked and attacked for seven days, you may be able to get stronger once the war is over, but chances are it costs you money (and your alliance) and it takes a long time to get back up to 40000 NS. I don't deny that he'll eventually be ZI'd, but he certainly won't be forgotten and he's already left his mark to show that any 14000 nation with a little time, patience, and an MP can do the same.

To just be in the higher Battalion it doesn't mean that you should not look back down towards the lower ranges, but I guess it really depends on how you play and what you consider caring, I suppose. Good luck anyway Corinan.

All that I say is that by Roma showing that one fairly small nation with a small warchest can make an impact.

[BamaBuc]

Here is another tip for those who really really want to win at Cybernations. Buy a good cell phone. I am not advertising for any specific phone, but get anything with internet access and a data connection. Typically data connections go for $20 a month (Unlimited) depending on your cell phone provider. This will enable you to access your nation 24/7, anywhere you are, school, work, the desert etc and you don’t have to start up a computer, instead you just press a button, go to cybernations.net and you're there in 20 seconds, even in the middle of the night. I currently have an AT&T Fuze and I use either Opera, or Opera mini as an internet browser to view my nation since they are the fastest browsers (Firefox is coming out with one called Fanec soon). I do not have a data plan at all, but I do use its wifi capabilities. But a lot of places don’t have wifi, so don’t rely on that.

Just wanted to comment on this. While mobile internet is good for collecting when you have that "Oh damn, I'm 19 inactive and it's 11:50 PM" moment (believe me, it happens ), I disagree about using it regularly. If someone else has used that WiFi or cell tower to access CN before, you'll get banned. It's a game of Russian roulette, so doing it when your nation's survival is not in doubt is a bad idea.

-Bama

[Corinan]

Yes, he's done well for himself and done plenty of damage, but you seem to be downplaying the enormous advantages he's had over the nations he's attacked while at the same time downplaying the fact that he is quickly losing steam.

You can play up his actions all you want, but at the end of the day he's only managed to throw a tiny peeble into the ocean, barely making a ripple. His nation will be in ruins and those he attacked will be stronger than before, war aid and such.

You can scream that the Order doesn't care about its young until you're blue in the face, but it won't make it true. Just because I don't follow every little thing that goes on in Pacifica doesn't mean that I don't care. And before you say it, yes, I consider his actions to be pretty "little" in the grand scheme of things. Pacifica will march on, right over his corpse.

They may end up stronger than they originally were, but they will have fallen back quite a long time in the development of their nation. If your NS is 40,000, then you are nuked and attacked for seven days, you may be able to get stronger once the war is over, but chances are it costs you money (and your alliance) and it takes a long time to get back up to 40000 NS. I don't deny that he'll eventually be ZI'd, but he certainly won't be forgotten and he's already left his mark to show that any 14000 nation with a little time, patience, and an MP can do the same.

I'm not 100% on this, but I don't think he attacked anyone near 40,000 NS. He kept his attacks concentrated on our lower NS nations for maximum damage output. So while our lower nations did take a beating, it's nothing a few $3 million aid packages wouldn't quickly cure. And then some.

Edited February 11, 2009 by Corinan

[Crohl]

pensfan, though awesome (best rogue of all time, in my opinion), never wrote a guide

Some say on dark windy nights if you listen real carefully and everything is quiet, you can hear the weeping of all the infrastructure Pensfan destroyed.

[astronaut jones]

1: I could do well over 5 billion in damages in a single week of war doing it my way and still wind up beating on the lower ranks of an alliance by the end.

2: All the counters to a rogue that you could implement are already known. Publishing guides on how to be more efficient isn't going to do a whole lot to help develop more effective counter measures. Effewctively fighting a guerrilla war is more complicated than just going rogue, which makes some of the better available strategies possible to counter by people who have thought of them.

If you want a guerrilla guide, just piece together the nuclear rogue and spying guides. Anything else would undermine itself by being published publically.

Well

1) That's entirely your prerogative. This is a guide, and it's neither perfect nor set in stone. If someone wishes to do what you've suggested, more power to them.

2) I don't think we've ever seen a massive nuclear rogue attack here on Planet Bob, co-ordinated against a single target, for an extended period of time, under the current rules that regulate such conflict. And, thus, this is why I think an effective guerilla guide should be produced, because with the right people, with the right co-ordination, against the right target, with enough cash behind them, you could utterly and completely destroy the middle and lower ranks of an alliance. But it also takes more than simply fighting to do it, it will take a massive propaganda campaign, in order to fully demoralize people enough to a) leave, and B) re-think joining in the first place.

So yeah. Guides are always good. Thought is always good. Taking a number of guides and merely piecing them together won't work, especially considering that spying guides would be completely useless under such circumstances.

[astronaut jones]

Some say on dark windy nights if you listen real carefully and everything is quiet, you can hear the weeping of all the infrastructure Pensfan destroyed.

People still mourn for the infrastructure destroyed, and the millions left dead during that week of hell. It was a sad day for infrastructure.

edited because I'm dumb.

Edited February 11, 2009 by astronaut jones

[Delta1212]

2) I don't think we've ever seen a massive nuclear rogue attack here on Planet Bob, co-ordinated against a single target, for an extended period of time, under the current rules that regulate such conflict. And, thus, this is why I think an effective guerilla guide should be produced, because with the right people, with the right co-ordination, against the right target, with enough cash behind them, you could utterly and completely destroy the middle and lower ranks of an alliance. But it also takes more than simply fighting to do it, it will take a massive propaganda campaign, in order to fully demoralize people enough to a) leave, and B) re-think joining in the first place.

So yeah. Guides are always good. Thought is always good. Taking a number of guides and merely piecing them together won't work, especially considering that spying guides would be completely useless under such circumstances.

If you require a guide to plan something like that, you almost certainly won't be able to pull it off.

[Mongrel]

Quite a fight you've been putting up there Roma, I tip my hat to you.

[astronaut jones]

If you require a guide to plan something like that, you almost certainly won't be able to pull it off.

I never said the guide would ever be put into practice. It's a sharing of information, the nuclear rogue guide I wrote, I never put into practice, but I was damn sure it would work. It's all about knowing the limitations that govern conflict on Planet Bob, and also about effective demoralization of the enemy through propaganda. And how to go about doing that, what would work and what wouldn't work.

And you never know, a guide like that might just clarify the ideas someone else has. Guides are always good, regardless of whether or not you're against the idea (and it's fairly clear you are), no guide published is without atleast a bit of merit.

[Corinan]

I think I could makes a very good and concise rogue guide. Let me try right now:

Step 1. Save lots and lots of money.

Step 2. Get lots and lots of wonders.

Step 3. Get a secret uranium trade if you don't have native uranium.

Step 4. Sell off a bunch of infra so you can torture smaller nations.

Step 5. Declare war and fire nukes.

Step 6. Be slowly ground to ZI.

Not bad, eh?

[Eeyore]

tbh that sucks

[JayOvfEnnay]

Yes, he's done well for himself and done plenty of damage, but you seem to be downplaying the enormous advantages he's had over the nations he's attacked while at the same time downplaying the fact that he is quickly losing steam.

You can play up his actions all you want, but at the end of the day he's only managed to throw a tiny peeble into the ocean, barely making a ripple. His nation will be in ruins and those he attacked will be stronger than before, war aid and such.

You can scream that the Order doesn't care about its young until you're blue in the face, but it won't make it true. Just because I don't follow every little thing that goes on in Pacifica doesn't mean that I don't care. And before you say it, yes, I consider his actions to be pretty "little" in the grand scheme of things. Pacifica will march on, right over his corpse.

I'm not 100% on this, but I don't think he attacked anyone near 40,000 NS. He kept his attacks concentrated on our lower NS nations for maximum damage output. So while our lower nations did take a beating, it's nothing a few $3 million aid packages wouldn't quickly cure. And then some.

Well first of all I'm going to go out of order in answering your post and skip to the bottom real quick to cover something- it was an example. I'm just saying it will take a while and some money for nations to get back up. And not too long ago I was a 12k NS nation, you can see it on my nation charts actually. 12k is about where he hit. With 5 factories, and every single trade that decreases infra cost as well as a federal government it takes over 35mil to buy 1000 infra at 3000 infra. This means that if a nation got hit and started out with 4000 infra, assuming he only destroys 1000 from that (with nukes, advantages, and etcetera he destroyed far more) he's causing 35 mil in damage per target that he hits. He also fought against larger nations that this when he got hit by NPO in retalliation. This is 6 nations per 7 days, and you figure this for 2 and a half months you get a LOT of cash that pacifica has to send out just to get these nations back up to where they were. A lot of organization as well. This is just infra, not tech not land not military or anything like that or even the money it takes to unbill lock the nations that catch the brunt.

Now I skip back up to the top- Advantage you say? He's one nation. He isn't getting funded by any large force, and Voxians that can aid him are too small or in peacemode, and FAN are too small, or in peacemode, and anyone else is too scared. You compare this to NPO, which has a near infinite well of nations to choose from to aid the SIX nations he's at war with. 6:1. The fact that he had advantages over the nations that he faced makes it about equal to me, but he by no means had an advantage when you break this down.

You're ignoring that he's shown other nations that they can cause the same amount of damage or more with just a bit of preparation and tiny warchest >.> He can in fact make a ripple and as I said earlier, the PR damage stays until this happens again with NPO doing better than they already have.

"Pacifica will march on, right over his corpse". You can never quell the nations that finally become fed up with NPO's actions and decide to do something. And this number of people that realize NPO's BS is by no means decreasing. And eventually NPO's going to have to ride over a lot of corpses Just because it's one nation, it doesn't mean a difference cannot be made. We see this today, and we see this in the future.

So once more, I'll end my post with a good luck to you Corinan, because I think as time goes on Pacifica will need it more and more.

[Corinan]

tbh that sucks

Perhaps, but that's pretty much what you have to do in order to be a successful rogue. And it's a lot less words than other guides.

[astronaut jones]

I think I could makes a very good and concise rogue guide. Let me try right now:

Step 1. Save lots and lots of money.

Step 2. Get lots and lots of wonders.

Step 3. Get a secret uranium trade if you don't have native uranium.

Step 4. Sell off a bunch of infra so you can torture smaller nations.

Step 5. Declare war and fire nukes.

Step 6. Be slowly ground to ZI.

Not bad, eh?

Most rogues don't care about step 6 at all.

[Mogar]

I think I could makes a very good and concise rogue guide. Let me try right now:

Step 1. Save lots and lots of money.

Step 2. Get lots and lots of wonders.

Step 3. Get a secret uranium trade if you don't have native uranium.

Step 4. Sell off a bunch of infra so you can torture smaller nations.

Step 5. Declare war and fire nukes.

Step 6. Be slowly ground to ZI.

Not bad, eh?

if you do step 1 well enough it will take a very long time for step 6 to be accomplished by your opponent.

[Corinan]

if you do step 1 well enough it will take a very long time for step 6 to be accomplished by your opponent.

Yeah step 1 and 2 are probably the most important. Basically, if you exercise a lot of patience and build up your nation beforehand, you'll have a pretty hard time screwing up step 5 and it'll be a while before you hit step 6.

Edited February 12, 2009 by Corinan

[Bob Janova]

I'm not 100% on this, but I don't think he attacked anyone near 40,000 NS. He kept his attacks concentrated on our lower NS nations for maximum damage output. So while our lower nations did take a beating, it's nothing a few $3 million aid packages wouldn't quickly cure. And then some.

Most of his targets currently are around 3000 infra. If we say 250 damage a day (a nuke, plus CMs to all targets and occasional GA wins), that's around $9m a day ... add in land losses and military costs and make it $10m for ease of thinking. He's been doing that since January, 40 days – so a rough estimate of his damages, assuming he has been fighting similar targets throughout, would be 40×$10m = $400m. Chances are that's a low estimate because he will have been larger in the past, and therefore destroying more expensive infra (and more of it due to higher tech), although most of the nations on his expired war list are around 3000 infra also.

Of course he caused at least that much financial damage to Grämlins with the nukes he fired in the Polar war

[Republic of Roma]

Not bad, eh?

Reverse step 4 and 5 and you've got it slightly right. I could have also attacked nations WITH SDIs and still made a massive success. But I have no grudges in this game, and my alliance is at war with other alliances officially, not specific people. Although it is specific people who we are against, these nations chose to follow their leaders and execute the atrocities we at Vox have spoken out against. I first attacked large, but weak nations by the wishes of the people of CN (you see, the people of CN voted for my target nations). Then I destroyed 1/3rd of my infra. You should really read my guide before you try and summarize it.

Most of his targets currently are around 3000 infra. If we say 250 damage a day (a nuke, plus CMs to all targets and occasional GA wins), that's around $9m a day ... add in land losses and military costs and make it $10m for ease of thinking. He's been doing that since January, 40 days – so a rough estimate of his damages, assuming he has been fighting similar targets throughout, would be 40×$10m = $400m. Chances are that's a low estimate because he will have been larger in the past, and therefore destroying more expensive infra (and more of it due to higher tech), although most of the nations on his expired war list are around 3000 infra also.

Of course he caused at least that much financial damage to Grämlins with the nukes he fired in the Polar war

I attacked 3 nations, one of them had 10,000 infrastructure. The other had over 9k infra, and another with around 8k and infrastructure at that level isn't cheap. 1 of my nukes does 170 damage in infrastructure (compare that to your 200++ infra killing nukes I suffered ), 30 from CM's (I did 17 damage in infra for each CM, some, I did 14, so I will just estimate conservatively at 15), plus the bombing runs, adding up to 22.25 infra each, and at least one successful ground attack. So 250 infra is around the right number per nation I nuked, not including the other nations I did ground attacks, CM's and airstrikes on without nukes. I am not too sure how much money I stole, but every one of my opponents has suffered greatly, and many of them are still recovering from my attacks, especially the ones I attacked twice. Even after a month some of my opponents have not recovered fully, especially my poor GGA opponent who bought 750 tech all at once (from having 5 tech) with his warchest, and wasting over $50 million if he had not done that and instead did tech deals. I had to give him peace just because.

[Rickyman1984]

every one of my opponents has suffered greatly, and many of them are still recovering from my attacks, especially the ones I attacked twice. Even after a month some of my opponents have not recovered fully, especially my poor GGA opponent who bought 750 tech all at once (from having 5 tech) with his warchest, and wasting over $50 million if he had not done that and instead did tech deals. I had to give him peace just because.

I see Corinan should have added step 7 to his guide.

Step 7: Write long self-congratulatory posts milking your triumph over casual rulers who rarely check their nations.