CNRP OOC Thread

[Manetheren]

Don't worry I'm used to people whining to the mods because I'm beating them in RP

[Tahsir]

Did they rasie up arms to defend DKT's interest or Greater Nordland's interests?

That is the defining question on if they are DKT military or not.

The fact that sumeragi RPed them means nothing othern than KM gave her something to RP that he could have if they were living as his citizens.

For Tahoe to go across the globe to take them out, without diplomacy, in the process invading a country that just had TWO wars fought over it because someone invaded it.

Hail KM jr.

[Sargun II]

If I may point out my opinion..

-clears throat-

Ethnic cleansing is obviously a very touchy issue, especially with like three mods getting involved or something. Anyway, the point here is this: ethnic cleansing is not allowed, as a rule. What Tahoe is doing is not ethnic cleansing.

"It has come to our attention that armed DKT militia are using supposed Franzharian citizenship as a shield to attempt to evade arrest. The claims are entirely false. The DKT personnel in our nation are and always have been nationals of Kyokujitso Teikoku. While previous administrations may have allowed them to live here, they were NEVER given clearance to take up arms.

However, upon the surrender of Dai Kyokujitsu Teikoku, they forfeited Nationalized status and any immunity they might have erroneously obtained. As such, taking up arms presents a clear violation of DKT Surrender Terms, as well as a violation of Franzharian Law.

We hereby demand that all Kyokujitsans still in Franzharia to submit to arrest and processing by Tahoan Personnel immediately."

The "DKT personnel", meaning the Kyokujitsuans, have violated the surrender terms and Franzharian law. Not to mention taking up arms and presumably using them (after all, what good is a weapon if you don't use them?). Of course, Tahoe came in and is trying to get rid of them: she violated the surrender terms, she pays the price.

Using her logic, that because they're only hunting Kyokujitsans it's ethnic cleansing, anybody can claim "ethnic cleansing" on anything, including a war. If a black man robs somebody and they arrest a black man who was running from the scene, with the stolen items, will it be racism because he's black? No, he was caught doing something wrong and is now paying the price.

If it was 100k DKT people, and 100k Western Republic people, and 100k Triyunican people doing it and they only went after the DKT "militia", then yeah, that would be ethnic cleansing.

But because it is only Kyokujitsuans who are violating the surrender terms and only Kyokujitsuans that need to be dealt with, it is not "ethnic cleansing". If he was doing this and he had a choice between doing it to them and doing it to everyone, sure, it'd be wrong. But because only they violated the terms and only they need to be targeted, what's wrong? If someone went in to my country and said that a certain group of people were violating the law, I would say "arrest that group of people". Why? Because the group is doing something wrong. I would not tell them not to arrest them just because they're a certain group.

[Tahsir]

Honestly, if Tahoe had a little more working with Franzharia rather than invading their peace to find Sumeragi's citizens, I think this whole mess would of been avoided.

The fact that the merged nations that condemed Kaiser Martens, have no problem with Tahoe's stepping on Franzharia, is a bit hypocritical..

All that has changed is the reason foriegn troops are being deployed into the nation. One claimed the need to remove the current leader, the other wants to remove armed refugees..

Edited January 7, 2009 by Tahsir Re

[LeVentNoir]

One claimed the need to remove the current leader, the other wants to remove armed refugees..

Removing someone cos you don't like them is not a CB. removing people that are supposed to be imprisoned under your control is.

[Tahsir]

without first asking the nation they are in to remove them on their own?

[LeVentNoir]

without first asking the nation they are in to remove them on their own?

Thats a mere nicety. Simply put, go in. If they say no, then they are harbouring fugitives, and you have a CB against the nation where your targets are.

[Sumeragi]

Here is my version of the events. "Kyoku" is short-term for Kyokujitsujin

1. The number of Kyoku in Europe/Rebel Army is the following:

Franzharia: 93,000

Nordland: 164,000

Rebel Army: 183,000

2. They had become naturalized citizens of Franzharia and Nordland during the Pacific War (KT-IW War). Given that dual citizenship is not allowed in KT, they effectively gave up their KT citizenship. Here is one piece of evidence of the change of citizenship. (Ranather forgot the fact of the no dual citizenship rule)

This effectively means that they were not DKT citizens as of the start of the Oceanic War (KT-FPB War), and therefore not under FPB jurisdition.

3. There were originally 300,000 Kyoku in Tion, but since all couldn't go (only 93,000 went), the remaining 183,000 moved north to Rebel Army, to build cities in the barren desert of Arabia.

4. Nordland Invasion of Tion happens. All of Tion's military is destroyed, with the exception of those in Murmansk.

5. Northern Empire declares war on Nordland.

6. The former Sumeragi gets all possible non-KT citizen Kyokus mobilized for their respective nations of citizenship, for defense/offense. Given that this was going to be total war, every men will be needed. They are under the command of the nations they are in.

Note 1: This means their participation in this war had nothing to do with the fall of DKT. The participation of former enemies is pure coincidence.

Note 2: Dilber brought up the point of that since the former Sumeragi was the one who rallied the troops, it is she who is in control. That is not the truth. The most she's done is persuade them to participate, just like David Ben-Gurion, persuaded young Jews in Palestine to go into the UK military to fight Germany.

7. Franzharia surrenders. Given that the Kyoku were under Franzharian command, they would have automatically surrender along with Anabelle.

However, given that I was RPing their movements, Mudd simply accepted my absence (Mudd posted yesterday, 10:33 AM, in my time zone) as not surrendering and went on with his operation. This is a potential violation of "give the other player time to respond" ethics.

The main problem with Mudd's RP (aside from not giving me time to respond): He is rewriting history by forcing the current Franzharian government to:

You will issue a public statement saying that all Kyokujitsans in this nation are not citizens of Franzharia nor have they ever been. They were always citizens of Kyokujitso Teikoku up until the point of the surrender of that nation, upon which they became stateless due to the nation of Kyokujitso Teikoku ceasing to exist. Furthermore, you will confirm that they took up arms and condemn this as an illegal act. Once these things are done, and all Kyokujitsans have been found and deported, we will leave.

Given that the Kyoku WERE citizens of only Franzharia (see point 2), this is fabrication of historical record to deport Kyokus, just like how Germany made the Jews non-persons and deported them in occupied Western Europe.

Now, if those Kyokus had been DKT citizens as of the start of the Oceanic War, I would definitely not have problems with Mudd's RP. However, the current case is that of deliberately rewriting public record to fit his needs, and this is why I believe this is a case of ethnic cleansing.

I sincerely hope the mods and gamemasters read this closely, and not look into the arguments of those who haven't read my RPs and are now seeing only half the picture. Thank you.

[Triyun]

Franzharia: 93,000

Nordland: 164,000

Rebel Army: 183,000

And 100% would be of fighting age and caliber? Come on be realistic.

6. The former Sumeragi gets all possible non-KT citizen Kyokus mobilized for their respective nations of citizenship, for defense/offense. Given that this was going to be total war, every men will be needed. They are under the command of the nations they are in.

The former Sumeragi is wanted for trial and war crimes by Ferrous Pacific, if you had the former Sumeragi (who you better believe our intel agencies are looking for) rallying an army, you better believe we are going to go after that army. I view the former Sumeragi here more as a Bin Laden style character calling for a jihad, and the army in the region may not be under that leaders direct control but they are the political force inspiring action. If such was the case, they are demonstrating that although the DKT is no longer a sovereign nation, it is a political force which maintains the capacity at minimum to be a military force as well. In which case the target Mudd's operation is not against a ethnic adversary (which would require him to move against Frost, and the larger Japanese ethnic group) but instead the specific targeting of a non-state political actor which maintains a world wide network capable of mobilizing and orchestrating military action. And that this network is lead by a current fugitive from a military coalition too which the Tahoe Empire is currently a member.

[LeVentNoir]

Simply put.

Either they are your citizens, and mudd has every right to hunt them down,

OR

They are not DKT citizens, and you have no right to role play them.

(Oh, btw, that 'evidence' for their not being dkt citizens? Its not evidence.)

[Manetheren]

Sumeragi, whining about what is happening to you IC in an OOC really doesn't do you any good. I have every right to attack anybody I want IC for any reason. Obviously diplomacy is always advisable, but not necessarily guaranteed.

If you refuse to respond IC, you cannot claim the "rule" that states you should give the other person time to respond. It is not my fault you did not like what was happening to you and thus refused to respond.

[hawk11]

I must agree with Mudd in terms of the refusal to respond and then claiming that you weren't given a proper amount of time. There shouldn't be allowance for pocket-vetoing of actions.

[Tahsir]

if any of them die after being arrested, and without trial, ethinic cleansing of DKT people would be occuring. "accidental" only goes so far...

Additionally I find it VERY hard to see how you're going to arrest hundreds of thousands of people. give them a war tribunal. then pass out fair judgment on their actions.

So really, other than shooting them all, in itself and extremely hard task to do by the sheer numbers, what then ARE you doing?

Super techno elite paratroopers arn't enough to capture, hold, and transport hundreds of thousands of anything except bullets.

Also if the old Sumeragi is the culprit why are you chasing foot soldiers? I can understand a more REASONABLE attempt to arrest the officers cadre and put them up for trial to get to the Sumeragi.

To put a common grunt on trial for holding a gun and taking orders is just stupid.

[Cody Seb]

To put a common grunt on trial for holding a gun and taking orders is just stupid.

That would classify them as a soldier rather than a civilian.

[Tahsir]

I never said they were civilian. The problem still remains. Arresting hundreds of thousands of common foot soldiers, that know nothing than what they are told, is going to accomplish what?

Edited January 7, 2009 by Tahsir Re

[Silhouette]

Taking that many prisoners is not difficult, really. Look at how many German prisoners the Red Army captured in World War Two......

[JerreyRough]

Didn't Sumeragi at one point RP her people as extraordinarly nationalist?

If I'm wrong, ignore this post. But if she did, then it makes a difference.

And mass-prisoner taking has been done. Just give the guards machineguns and take their guns away. Make a rally long line.

Edited January 7, 2009 by JerreyRough

[Tahsir]

Taking that many prisoners is not difficult, really. Look at how many German prisoners the Red Army captured in World War Two......

Edited:

Need I remind you that MILLIONS of Russians died because of german capture.

Oh and the 6th german army that the Russians captured at Stalingrad? Not only was that a full fledged Russian army doing the capturing but only 5000 men ever returned alive to Germany. Out of over a hundred thousand...

Edited January 7, 2009 by Tahsir Re

[Silhouette]

Your point being?

[steodonn]

Whats up CNRP

What have I missed

[Tahsir]

Your point being?

So most of Sumer's people are going to end up dead because they fought someone that beat them?

That would be ethnic cleansing. Military or civilian.

[Severus Snape]

Simply put.

Either they are your citizens, and mudd has every right to hunt them down,

OR

They are not DKT citizens, and you have no right to role play them.

This is how I see it. If they have given up their citizenship with your nation or former nation they are no longer "yours" to roleplay with. Unless you have gotten permission from the respective nations where they are located that you may use them for your own RP they are not your citizens to control. In fact this almost looks like a deliberate attempt to use their ethnicity as a shield.

It does not seem proper to take citizens of other nations, regardless of whether they were once your citizens or not, and without their leader's permission call them to arms -- especially in anyone's name but your own. Now, I am assuming that Sumeragi was not given permission by those three nations as at least one of them was surprised to be invaded in retaliation and there has been no mention of their consent being sought.

On this matter I will defer to the leaders of Franzharia, Nordland, and Rebel Army to decide whether they wish to permit this usage of their citizenry or would prefer to refuse acknowledgment of the legitimacy of the action.

Regarding the actions of Emperor Mudd and the accusations of ethnic cleansing, I have seen no RP of this nature. The people being targeted are being targeted for arming themselves in a stated opposition to another entity. RPing them under the name and banner of a leader that has been chased and targeted for destruction by other RPers in the past only further strengthens the reason for targeting these people. If each and every one of them is turning into a man-at-arms then they are combatants. If destroying them for their allegiance to a recognised war criminal or deposed leader constitutes ethnic cleansing then the same could be applied to almost any war pursued against a single nation.

In this matter we must also take under consideration the intent. From what I have observed it is not Emperor Mudd's or anyone's goal to wipe out an entire ethnic group. They are not rounding up people in Sumeragi's former nation and all other nations and putting them to death. They are attacking what is apparently an armed militia roused in non-native countries. Was it ethnic cleansing when Germany fought Free French forces in World War II? You would have a difficult time arguing that.

As such, if the community decides to permit the RP uprising of Sumeragi's former citizens I would not consider military retaliation to be ethnic cleansing. So long as Emperor Mudd is not clearly RPing an attempt to wipe out an ethnic group and is instead taking offensive action against a military threat and/or an international outlaw then it is a permissible action.

If anything does not make sense or needs clarifying, do let me know.

[Raritan]

OOC: nvm

Edited January 7, 2009 by Raritan

[Severus Snape]

Edited:

Need I remind you that MILLIONS of Russians died because of german capture.

Oh and the 6th german army that the Russians captured at Stalingrad? Not only was that a full fledged Russian army doing the capturing but only 5000 men ever returned alive to Germany. Out of over a hundred thousand...

So most of Sumer's people are going to end up dead because they fought someone that beat them?

That would be ethnic cleansing. Military or civilian.

You are making assumptions there. Unless Emperor Mudd is RPing their deportation to death camps or somesuch where they are exterminated or die due to poor treatment it is up to him to decide what becomes of taken prisoners.

Let us remember that in-character Germany and Russia do not exist as states, and Tahoe is neither, nor obligated to follow their model.

[Tahsir]

However, from what I can tell, they are supposed to be civilians.

Like I said, I can understand arresting the OFFICERS for breaking the terms of surrender and raising the army, but to punish the common foot soldier. Only removed from civilian life by some training and a gun?

You cant put them all into prisons unless you have a few giant empty ones laying around. If you put them into camps you have to spend a LOT to guard them.

also how is a paratrooper army going to secure them effectively? Unless he darkened the sky with parachutes he's outnumbered, but, fortunately for him, they dis-banded from being an army.

Now you have what? 1? 2? 3? divisions guarding 44 divions worth of men?

Feed them and shelter them. Then transport them.

Or will they starve to death and save him the time, money, and effort?

edit because i was posting and didnt see this.

You are making assumptions there. Unless Emperor Mudd is RPing their deportation to death camps or somesuch where they are exterminated or die due to poor treatment it is up to him to decide what becomes of taken prisoners.

Let us remember that in-character Germany and Russia do not exist as states, and Tahoe is neither, nor obligated to follow their model.

Where is he going to keep that many people then? Like I said in the first part. Unless you have a bunch of empty prisons, or similar, laying around...

As for germany and russia, point of reference only. that I did not first bring up.

Edited January 7, 2009 by Tahsir Re