bankruptcy?

[thaone]

Today admin used a term i never heard in CN.

See topic title.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=35025

I'm curious when your nation goes bankrupt. I thought it was possible to go for 40 days in unpaid bills, with only a diminishing tax-return as a result after 19 days of unpaid taxes.

[Syzygy]

you cannot go truly bankrupt in CN. you can always sell off all improvements, wonders, infra, military = reducing your bills to 0. Pay your bills to remove the tax penalty. Collect tax with the few people you have from land. Rebuild.

[admin]

you cannot go truly bankrupt in CN. you can always sell off all improvements, wonders, infra, military = reducing your bills to 0. Pay your bills to remove the tax penalty. Collect tax with the few people you have from land. Rebuild.

This is correct. The nation that the OP referenced has 3 options to get out of his current 'bankrupt' situation, arrange foreign aid agreements, restart with a new nation, or sell away enough nation assets to reduce his bills.

[varson117]

Hello! I am going bankrupt in the game. I really wish to avoid starting over. But, I am about 80,000,000 dollars in debt. It would be helpful to receive some money to help pay that off. I understand that no one really wants to lend all of that money. But, I would be thankful. My nation is Tython and my name is Varson117. Thanks!

[thedestro]

you cannot go truly bankrupt in CN. you can always sell off all improvements, wonders, infra, military = reducing your bills to 0. Pay your bills to remove the tax penalty. Collect tax with the few people you have from land. Rebuild.

Right, except decomming improvements/wonders would do more bad than good.

edit: Depending on the citizen count I suppose.

Edited September 20, 2008 by thedestro

[thaone]

This is correct. The nation that the OP referenced has 3 options to get out of his current 'bankrupt' situation, arrange foreign aid agreements, restart with a new nation, or sell away enough nation assets to reduce his bills.

Ah OK, I was thinking it was some new feature that you wouldn't be able to collect.

On a side note:

In the hypothetical situation that i don't have any money left and i'm total ZI, some body could force me to delete (let me delete due to inactivity) because of I'm having a Manhattan project, which can't be destroyed and always gives 5000 in bills.

Don't tell this to the guy who has a nation 1 day younger than Das Girl's.

[Gruthenia]

Right, except decomming improvements/wonders would do more bad than good.

edit: Depending on the citizen count I suppose.

Well, if he can't find enough aid to get him out of bill lock, his only other option is to reroll. So, I don't think decomming his stuff would do more bad than starting over entirely.

[schmutte693]

Technically, they cannot force him to re-roll. This hypothetical nation could continue to collect 0 money and keep his nation, even though his taxes are continually growing, and they are making less and less money because of the punishment for unpaid taxes. I cannot figure out why he would... but it is possible

[Drai]

Technically, they cannot force him to re-roll. This hypothetical nation could continue to collect 0 money and keep his nation, even though his taxes are continually growing, and they are making less and less money because of the punishment for unpaid taxes. I cannot figure out why he would... but it is possible

Haha, wouldn't that be a way to run one's nation.

But it does look as if the only way that could happen is if they had a Manhatten Project.

[Syzygy]

Haha, wouldn't that be a way to run one's nation.

But it does look as if the only way that could happen is if they had a Manhatten Project.

That is why an MP should cost no upkeep. It is 'indestructable' because it was defined as 'knowledge', but since when does knowledge cost upkeep?

Easy solution:

If the nation owns an MP, the amount of wonders when paying bills is reduced by 1.

Besides this, keeping a nation, even if you have to destroy all wonders, infra and improvements offers some benefits:

- if you have good resources, you don't risk to get bad ones during the re-roll

- you keep your nation-link, which is sometimes used in trade circle boards or other profiles, if you re-roll all these are broken

- you keep your trade circle if you have one

- you keep your natural growth bonus (land that cannot be destroyed, but provides citizens)

- you keep your purchased land (costs no upkeep, but is providing citizens)

So, from this point of view, keeping the nation instead of rerolling is always benefitial.

[Emperor Stranger]

Sell a few $20 donations. Three of four would be $80,000,000. Also, rebudget. That's what I did when I was literally losing more than I was gaining a while back.

[HHAYD]

Why doesn't CN has this Global Bank Center where all of the nations can borrow loans? Plus, the loans can't be sent to other nations, and the higher the NS a nation has, the more money it can borrow.

I think that would free many nations out of "bankruptcy" temporarily, problem is, that would land those nations a bigger debt.

[raskull]

This is somewhat OT, but does anyone know why the income penalty for unpaid bills was introduced? The changelog mentions a possible exploit but I can't figure out what it could be:

A possible exploit with the way bills and taxes are structured in the game has been corrected. An income penalty of -2% for every day of unpaid bills after the 19th day has been added to the game. The income penalty is structured as follows:

20th day = -20% income

21st day = -22% income

22nd day = -24% income

...

40th day = -60% income

60th day = -100% income

[schmutte693]

Yes, nations would simply collect taxes without paying bills and send out loads and loads of Aid, without having to pay taxes.

[raskull]

Ah, I was thinking you couldn't send aid if you were behind on bill payments. I can never remember what you can and can't do when you're behind on bills...

[Loki Ire]

This is correct. The nation that the OP referenced has 3 options to get out of his current 'bankrupt' situation, arrange foreign aid agreements, restart with a new nation, or sell away enough nation assets to reduce his bills.

Wow, so due to a lost trade, my options are now to restart by deleting or... restart by destroying virtually everything I've built (ie same effect as deleting)?

I understand the need to fix exploits, but this opens a gaping design hole in the game. Longtime players who encounter a fairly minor, common, and temporary income disruption should not be relegated to starting over from scratch. Due to the size of my nation and the bills involved, my bills add up faster than I could receive aid. I was catching up to my bills thanks to collections being restored to full capacity, but now they're being reduced by the "exploit fix" and it's no longer possible for me to catch up.

If I can't continue functionally playing a game I've played for years without starting over because of a flaw in the mechanics intentionally introduced to cover an exploitable situation, then that's really a shame. My hope is that Admin will be willing to find another way to solve the exploit issue and do something to help those who are caught up in this deadlock through no fault of their own. Otherwise, I'm unable to functionally play.

[schmutte693]

I think that most will tell you that this is why large nations are generally expected to have large warchests. If you can think of a better way to fix the problems (the exploit and your own), I am certain that the Suggestion Forum would be willing to comment on it.

[raskull]

If you can think of a better way to fix the problems (the exploit and your own), I am certain that the Suggestion Forum would be willing to comment on it.

I don't see why just disabling outgoing foreign aid when you're late on bills wouldn't fix the "exploit" (assuming that is really what the exploit was).

[jamesbodden]

Wow, so due to a lost trade, my options are now to restart by deleting or... restart by destroying virtually everything I've built (ie same effect as deleting)?

I understand the need to fix exploits, but this opens a gaping design hole in the game. Longtime players who encounter a fairly minor, common, and temporary income disruption should not be relegated to starting over from scratch. Due to the size of my nation and the bills involved, my bills add up faster than I could receive aid. I was catching up to my bills thanks to collections being restored to full capacity, but now they're being reduced by the "exploit fix" and it's no longer possible for me to catch up.

If I can't continue functionally playing a game I've played for years without starting over because of a flaw in the mechanics intentionally introduced to cover an exploitable situation, then that's really a shame. My hope is that Admin will be willing to find another way to solve the exploit issue and do something to help those who are caught up in this deadlock through no fault of their own. Otherwise, I'm unable to functionally play.

It is a shame but it sounds like something else went wrong. I mean is it really that hard to find a trade, ANY TRADE in 20 days so you didnt have to collect? In addition that means you waited like 60 days after not paying bills. Thats two months I'm sure there could have been something you could have done. It just sounds to me like poor money management

[Loki Ire]

It is a shame but it sounds like something else went wrong. I mean is it really that hard to find a trade, ANY TRADE in 20 days so you didnt have to collect? In addition that means you waited like 60 days after not paying bills. Thats two months I'm sure there could have been something you could have done. It just sounds to me like poor money management

Just any trade wouldn't give me the bonus resources necessary to reduce my bills to a point where they'd be payable. I hadn't sent out any aid, but I believe I bought infra while a day behind on bills. Normally it wouldn't have made any difference, but all of a sudden with the trade loss, it became an issue. Finding a replacement trade partner for the nation that purged did take a while. I can't log in and spend a bunch of time here every day, so trying to find a trade partner every 4 or 5 days, I eventually found one in a nation that had just been created.

I'm not at 60+ days of unpaid bills; I'm at 33 (32 when I wrote this) and I'm currently losing 46% of my income due to the penalty.

Could you pay your bills at -46% income?

Regarding the war chest, why is it that a nation that doesn't engage in war, who is in an alliance that doesn't engage in war, should be forced to keep a bunch of money sitting there doing nothing just to handle intentionally introduced flaws in the game mechanics? I'd rather put the money I have into infra or a wonder than have it sitting there unused. Again, I'm not doing anything crazy or extraordinary, and I'm not attempting to exploit anything. All I'm trying to do is keep playing.

[alpreb]

Regarding the war chest, why is it that a nation that doesn't engage in war, who is in an alliance that doesn't engage in war, should be forced to keep a bunch of money sitting there doing nothing just to handle intentionally introduced flaws in the game mechanics? I'd rather put the money I have into infra or a wonder than have it sitting there unused. Again, I'm not doing anything crazy or extraordinary, and I'm not attempting to exploit anything. All I'm trying to do is keep playing.

I think it makes sense that nation simulator sooner or later will require you to keep a bit money tucked away for worse times, like longer periods in peace mode.

[Lord Emares]

This is somewhat OT, but does anyone know why the income penalty for unpaid bills was introduced? The changelog mentions a possible exploit but I can't figure out what it could be:

The exploit was as follows:

large nations don't pay bills for x number of days but collect for those x days

they then sell all of their infra & military, pay all of the bills at 25 infra and next to no military,

go 19 days inactive paying bills for the 19 days at the lower infra

on day 19 buy shed loads of infra and whatever is needed to boost their economy

collect

...

profit?

essentially given the right circumstances a large enough nation could boost themselves many thousands of infra above what they had just purely on this method.

Edited September 27, 2008 by Lord Emares